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The Loneliness of the Long Distance Trader

  • #41
  • Nov 3, 2018 3:53am Nov 3, 2018 3:53am
Quoting cat
I don't know how many people out there ever read the 1950s classic ' The Loneliness of the Long-Distance runner ', by Alan Sillitoe. In fact, the book is a collection of short stories, this story being just one of them. I won't say much about it, but it is s story of isolation, of immense dedication in the face of enormous adversity in a world cut off from normality which no one, sometimes not even oneself, understands. It is well worth a read for us traders, and there is also a 1962 film with the same title. There is s strong parallel with us traders....
This is one of the most touching posts I have read in a long time. Thank you, Cat.
mind over matter
  • #42
  • Nov 3, 2018 7:17am Nov 3, 2018 7:17am
Quoting kosmo
{quote} This is one of the most touching posts I have read in a long time. Thank you, Cat.
  • #43
  • Nov 9, 2018 11:25am Nov 9, 2018 11:25am
I'd like to close out this week with this quote, because it is absolutely mega for us traders.

Everything worthwhile I ever achieved in my life was because I tore myself out of my comfort zone, even getting married on my 40th birthday was a wrench out of the comfort zone of being a bachelor, free to do as i pleased, how I liked, when I liked.

There comes a time as a trader, as in life, in fact there come many occasions, when we have to vacate our comfortable shell and step out into the unknown. As traders, there are few experiences in life as uncomfortable as pitting our hard earned money against the markets, especially as the chances of winning are so uncertain, but this is what we have to do, over and over again. Sure, when we're winning, we have confidence in our ability and in our reading of the markets, this becomes so much easier, but it's getting to this stage that is so hard. Self-doubt creeps in, we become anxious, depressed, frustrated, angry, even vindictive towards the markets, and all of this destroys our performance and results in a downward spiral that can become almost impossible to break free of. The end result for most is quitting the business, beaten and remorseful.

Which leads back to the most important aspect of trading, which is self-belief. To break out of our comfort zone, we have to truly believe we will succeed, but to stay out of it when things aren't going well, which they will not all too frequently as a trader, requires the greatest self belief of all.

Happy weekend to all.
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  • #44
  • Nov 9, 2018 1:31pm Nov 9, 2018 1:31pm
[quote=cat;11543697]. If any of us have spent a whole day staring at pa waiting for the opportunity which never came, then it has been a completely wasted day in my opinion. We have to trade, as often as we can, for every trade taken, whether it ends up as a winning or losing trade, is a valuable lesson learnt.
This is wild imho
  • #45
  • Nov 9, 2018 3:12pm Nov 9, 2018 3:12pm
[quote=Squiggles;11679173]
Quoting cat
. If any of us have spent a whole day staring at pa waiting for the opportunity which never came, then it has been a completely wasted day in my opinion. We have to trade, as often as we can, for every trade taken, whether it ends up as a winning or losing trade, is a valuable lesson learnt. This is wild imho
If I dont see a setup, I put a bunch of alerts on the pairs that are close to being ripe. Then go about my day (outdoor activities, travel, read, gym, etc). When I get an alert I open up the laptop and execute, or not depending on PA. I like things simple, I trade to live, I dont trade to be a called a trader.
  • #46
  • Nov 10, 2018 3:40am Nov 10, 2018 3:40am
[quote=echo1;11679366]
Quoting Squiggles
{quote} If I dont see a setup, I put a bunch of alerts on the pairs that are close to being ripe. Then go about my day (outdoor activities, travel, read, gym, etc). When I get an alert I open up the laptop and execute, or not depending on PA. I like things simple, I trade to live, I dont trade to be a called a trader.
Not impressed by this. Sounds like one of those systems advertisements...' Earn a fantastic income from home from just a couple of hours a day and enjoy the freedom you've always dreamed of '! In other words, bullshit

Real traders know that it is not like this, unless perhaps a trader has already put in several years at least of hard mileage in front of the screens developing a tried and tested system. then, yes, it is a possibility. If you are one of those, then sure, hats off to you.
  • #47
  • Nov 10, 2018 8:11am Nov 10, 2018 8:11am
[quote=cat;11679871]
Quoting echo1
{quote} Not impressed by this. Sounds like one of those systems advertisements...' Earn a fantastic income from home from just a couple of hours a day and enjoy the freedom you've always dreamed of '! In other words, bullshit Real traders know that it is not like this, unless perhaps a trader has already put in several years at least of hard mileage in front of the screens developing a tried and tested system. then, yes, it is a possibility. If you are one of those, then sure, hats off to you.
- I am not advertising anything at all I am saying one should have a clear goal of what they want. If you want to trade to get out of 9-5, but then spend 6am to - 10pm looking at the screen, then your goal is not met even if you are making money.
No doubt you would spend a lot of time in front of the screen when you are starting out, but then you need to put in trades and go outside since its the life that you wanted. If you train yourself to put some trades in and enjoy the day then you will get better at that trading/ life balance.

- If you spend 10h a day trading/looking at the screen (even making money) and get really good at it, you would still need to learn a new way to trade if you no longer want to spend 10h looking at the screen.

- If it takes you 1H to break down a chart, then you challenged yourself to do it in 30min you will get there with some practice. Then push yourself to do it in 15min, again you will get there if you try. Put alerts around news etc. and be on your merry way.
To reiterate; I am not saying that you do this and go swim in champagne (unless thats what your after) , maybe you spend time with fam more or have a hobby that you do. In fact it would help to keep busy and mind off the trades, reduces the chances to micromanage.

Ask yourself what do you want? money/lifestyle, then build a plan.
  • #48
  • Nov 10, 2018 9:47am Nov 10, 2018 9:47am
Quoting echo1
Quoting cat
{quote} - I am not advertising anything at all I am saying one should have a clear goal of what they want. If you want to trade to get out of 9-5, but then spend 6am to - 10pm looking at the screen, then your goal is not met even if you are making money. No doubt you would spend a lot of time in front of the screen when you are starting out, but then you need to put in trades and go outside since its the life that you wanted. If you train yourself to put some trades in and enjoy the day then you will get better at that
...
I hear what you are saying, but, this approach to trading as something which you hope will give you a better lifestyle without the total and 100% commitment to learning how to do it, is the reason why most fail. Viewing trading as a means to an end is futile, it should be viewed as the end, not the means by which you hope to attain riches in whatever form they may take. Once this end has been reached, and only once a trader has become consistently successful, can one begin to think about the rewards. If you consider getting out of 9 to 5 to then spend 6am to 10pm in front of the trading desk a wasted effort and no escape from whatever you were doing before, then trading is most certainly not for you.

The point I am making, which I have made many times here on various ff threads, is that in my own opinion, one of the main reasons why the failure rate is so high among traders is that most see this as a quick and easy way of making money, and massively underestimate the time and commitment it takes to learn how to make money from it. If your view of a trader is some guy sitting on a beach trading alerts effortlessly from a laptop in one hand and a pina colada in the other, then you are wildly delusional. This is a stereotypical example of course, but it cuts to the nub of why so many fail. They focus on the rewards above the realities of achieving them.
  • #49
  • Nov 10, 2018 10:13am Nov 10, 2018 10:13am
I´d say, that you really have to love trading as a whole. So much, that you would even do it, if the reward were minimum wage.
If people see it as a vehicle to make easy money, they will never achieve the excellence it takes, to become successful.
  • #50
  • Nov 10, 2018 10:17am Nov 10, 2018 10:17am
Quoting cat
{quote}{quote} I hear what you are saying, but, this approach to trading as something which you hope will give you a better lifestyle without the total and 100% commitment to learning how to do it, is the reason why most fail. Viewing trading as a means to an end is futile, it should be viewed as the end, not the means by which you hope to attain riches in whatever form they may take. Once this end has been reached, and only once a trader has become consistently successful, can one begin to think about the rewards. If you consider getting out of...
Hey Cat, I completely agree on almost everything. Regarding people thinking its quick and easy money you are spot on. Regarding time for someone to be successful: some people put in 5h of learning weekdays after work and all weekends, for these people 6 months is other peoples 2/3 years. Some people just "get it" quicker than others.
What fueled me at the beginning is the fact that I can travel and trade at the same time, but I sabotaged myself by getting a bunch of monitors and a "real" trading setup. Then I thought "wait, I cant bring all this crap with me". So back to 1 screen that I can take anywhere. Definitely there was an adjustment period. In the end it worked. I do not sit on beaches with a laptop thats for sure , but I definitely have much more beach/lake/forest/etc time. If you define your parameters you can make it work. Since there are many ways to trade (scalp, session,swing, etc) pick the one that suits your future lifestyle and work on it, its simple, the process is straightforward, but NOT easy. If you trade on 4H charts you really need to check once in 4H (unless there are news that concern your setup)
Some people work on getting 1000 pip months, but if you can consistently get 200-300, that can provide you with a really good life.

"what do you want?" is a really powerful question that people don't ask themselves or lie to themselves. If you answer it truthfully to yourself, it usually a straightforward process to figuring out the steps to attain it. Easy it is not (depending on what you want)
  • #51
  • Nov 11, 2018 7:05am Nov 11, 2018 7:05am
[quote=echo1;11680305]{quote}. What fueled me at the beginning is the fact that I can travel and trade at the same time, ..... I definitely have much more beach/lake/forest/etc time..... Some people work on getting 1000 pip months, but if you can consistently get 200-300, that can provide you with a really good life. "what do you want?" .....

Yes, I agree, people do not realize that 20 pips a day, 100 pips a week can provide one with whatever lifestyle one wants. If you are able to do this and do what you love at the same time, which is travel, hike through the forests or whatever, then that is great. I did that once, all over the world actually, but that was before my trading days. Now I have bills to pay and a family to feed, so it's the office and the trading desk when at work, and then pursuing my other interests when not, but I love to trade, and it is a big part of my life, as it has to be.

All the best!
  • #52
  • Nov 11, 2018 1:26pm Nov 11, 2018 1:26pm
Quoting cat
Quoting echo1
{quote}. What fueled me at the beginning is the fact that I can travel and trade at the same time, ..... I definitely have much more beach/lake/forest/etc time..... Some people work on getting 1000 pip months, but if you can consistently get 200-300, that can provide you with a really good life. "what do you want?" ..... Yes, I agree, people do not realize that 20 pips a day, 100 pips a week can provide one with whatever lifestyle one wants. If you are able to do this and do what you love at the same time, which is travel,
...
Sounds like you are on a great journey, and a cool cat , great chat!
  • #53
  • Nov 11, 2018 2:14pm Nov 11, 2018 2:14pm
Quoting echo1
{quote}{quote} Sounds like you are on a great journey, and a cool cat , great chat!
  • #54
  • Nov 11, 2018 4:51pm Nov 11, 2018 4:51pm
Yes. Very true. Very Lonely at times.
Especially when you cant explain to people how hard you work. Only one person in my life knows how hard. When you say your career is a forex trader most prople think gambler, short term luck, lucky combo of indicators or an EA thats lucky lucky lukvy all things that wont last. Frustrating.
  • #55
  • Nov 11, 2018 8:51pm Nov 11, 2018 8:51pm
Dear Cat and other posters,

I don't know how to thank you for starting this thread as well as others who have contributed. Cat, I greatly related to your learning approach of making mistakes and learning from them. However, the loneliness of trading has not hit me yet. Why? Maybe I am not giving any time to focus on those negative aspects as I also have to finish my studies for a Doctor of Philosophy as well as work on educating myself to be a trader. Not sure if it was the best decision to try and work on both at the same time, but I would not be able to choose between them as one is nothing without the other and I love them both (for my future goals).

I do not feel it is the right time to share my full story (16 months live trading journey), but I can share that I have learned my fair share of lessons. I had hedged a massive loser when the euro dropped after Dragi said something. From a solid 5 months prior, All efforts were ruined. I had a calculated strategy (minus the money management), and practiced many times on demo many months ago for a similar situation. I don't know how, but I missed 3 opportunities the market had given me to release the fake hedge because friends and family were more important. Battled with the trade for 2 weeks and finally took the next best opportunity to close out. One of the days I traded a total 62.5 lots...not a good place for an inexperienced trader. I do hope to share my journey soon, but I do not think it is at a point currently where it will be helpful to others. I am working hard ever since to re-evaluate my trading approach and have been really focused on probability and profitability.

Trading can be lonely, but it doesn't have to be. We can always take the opportunity to find someone to talk to especially here on FF. Those unfortunate/ fortunate enough to have told/ shared with family and friends may eventually understand and provide some support. Some may say it is embarrassing, but I rather be honest and share this as I am still living at home, the most unlikely trading partner found me, my mum... We do not trade the same way, but we do support each other. The positive is that I have made the mistakes and was able to mentor her to be profitable since she started, but I am currently still in a draw down this financial year, but will happily make the mistakes if I had a chance to repeat history. So, what I am getting at is that you can share with others close to you as long as they have interest in trading and not the "money" + expectation for instant riches side, as it is a bi-product of consistent managed trading.

Finally, just thinking about the comments of trading taking lots of time, we can apply the "eliminate, automate or delegate" that I learned from a ted talks video. Mainly the automate part, which should free up some labor work only after the hard work is done to work out what exactly is to be automated.

If anyone needs someone to have a chat to, do not hesitate to send me a message and say hi

I also leave you with this small image:
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: Screenshot2.png Size: 97 KB



Kind Regards,
Tzamo
"Work hard, put in the effort, and follow your dreams..." -Me
  • #56
  • Nov 11, 2018 10:33pm Nov 11, 2018 10:33pm
Quoting cat
{quote} This is the toughest one, trying to justify to others what you are trying to achieve...there is no way you can do it UNTIL the money starts to come in, which for some, is already too late.
Money or not here you come

fact is you tried, you wont die wondering. We dont live to die, we live for the journey in between.

whatever the case as long as your intentions are good, you have no reason to hang your head.

The best thing you can ever do is learn to go.. to try... win or loss... do this infinity times and fear not success is guaranteed

just always always have a plan b c and d amd you can abcd the rest of your happy life... enjoy it

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  • #57
  • Nov 11, 2018 10:47pm Nov 11, 2018 10:47pm
Quoting cat
I don't know how many people out there ever read the 1950s classic ' The Loneliness of the Long-Distance runner ', by Alan Sillitoe. In fact, the book is a collection of short stories, this story being just one of them. I won't say much about it, but it is s story of isolation, of immense dedication in the face of enormous adversity in a world cut off from normality which no one, sometimes not even oneself, understands. It is well worth a read for us traders, and there is also a 1962 film with the same title. There is s strong parallel with us traders....
I mean theres no suffering here, yes trading is lonely but success of any kind is in and of itself lonely too. Because its rare and valuable... its hard to relate to those who don’t know what you know or haven’t experienced things in the same way you have.

you can’t have your cake and eat it too.. trading is quite unnatural and goes against the grain of society

so what? So does having some new idea and running with it, don’t look for validation because you will never get it, chances are IF you reach some form of success in trading those close to you will just assume you were lucky or did something illegal... if you fail they will just be there to say i told you so

fk them... win lose or draw you’re really on your own. As is anyone who dares to go the road less travelled. Its just how we’ve been trained to think.

just enjoy it, learn from it and grow

good luck

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  • #58
  • Nov 11, 2018 10:58pm Nov 11, 2018 10:58pm
Validation and ego

the entire capitalist economy relies on these 2 words

get above them. And spit on them every chance you get

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  • #59
  • Edited 11:26pm Nov 11, 2018 11:03pm | Edited 11:26pm
Quoting cat
I don't know how many people out there ever read the 1950s classic ' The Loneliness of the Long-Distance runner ', by Alan Sillitoe. In fact, the book is a collection of short stories, this story being just one of them. I won't say much about it, but it is s story of isolation, of immense dedication in the face of enormous adversity in a world cut off from normality which no one, sometimes not even oneself, understands. It is well worth a read for us traders, and there is also a 1962 film with the same title. There is s strong parallel with us traders....
You are wrong. Everything fell into place without too much trouble.

Now that I told you what you asked me to, the feelings of me against the world never go away and in isolation become terrifying. Fortunately, I have become efficient in my tape reading and now pursue other interests besides staring at charts. Get into your position and walk away, do something else. I help my wife with her business, go visit friends, the grand kid. Anything else when the news is yellow.

edit - the most important thing to learn about being a trader is, there are more important things in life than trading. Make enough to pay the bills is true bliss. Do you really need a Lamborghini?
Ecclesiastes 1:9
  • #60
  • Nov 11, 2018 11:19pm Nov 11, 2018 11:19pm
Maybe we could rename the thread “first world f issues” =p


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