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Pro traders who do not use SL, What about Black Swans?

  • #201
  • Nov 6, 2018 11:32pm Nov 6, 2018 11:32pm
Quoting jmn5611
{quote} There is a reason why the disclaimer "past performance does not guarantee future results" exists. Back testing is just another waste of time to give traders the illusion of security. How many robots out there back test beautifully? The real truth behind back testing is that the trader usually fools themselves by curve fitting data.

Trend following systems do not need curve fitting, they're flexible.. also all systems can be automated, therefore backtested. Some ppl may argue that backtesting with fixed spreads is not the best way to backtest.. I say BS anyways who cares ! to me it's safer to backtest using wider spreads.

How many ? I found none to download really, take the largest EA's repository, downloaded them all.. howeer I stopped searching years ago, so maybe you can find some scalping EA's which give a nice curve IDK.
I don't care about scalping.

pst perfomance.. yeah predictions are hard but certainly possible according to backtests, which actually REMOVE any illusion. It's about "trying to predict " not predicting with certain.
  • #202
  • Nov 7, 2018 12:37am Nov 7, 2018 12:37am
Quoting HeyYou
{quote} Trend following systems do not need curve fitting, they're flexible.. also all systems can be automated, therefore backtested. Some ppl may argue that backtesting with fixed spreads is not the best way to backtest.. I say BS anyways who cares ! to me it's safer to backtest using wider spreads. How many ? I found none to download really, take the largest EA's repository, downloaded them all.. howeer I stopped searching years ago, so maybe you can find some scalping EA's which give a nice curve IDK. I don't care about scalping. pst perfomance.....
If price could be predicted, other than fundamentals driving general prices higher or lower, who would take the other side of the trade? This is not how markets work. It never was.
If you are good at something, never do it for free--Joker
  • #203
  • Nov 7, 2018 1:42am Nov 7, 2018 1:42am
Quoting jmn5611
{quote} If price could be predicted, other than fundamentals driving general prices higher or lower, who would take the other side of the trade? This is not how markets work. It never was.
You do, you and the other 90% who think they can buy lows and sell highs.

Market is about exploting .
  • #204
  • Nov 7, 2018 5:12am Nov 7, 2018 5:12am
Quoting HeyYou
{quote} You do, you and the other 90% who think they can buy lows and sell highs. Market is about exploting .
Some day you'll understand what he means. I'm almost offended that he gave you one of the greatest pearls and you are trampling it into the mud like a swine.

If you think you have knowledge, and experience, and good judgement... then where is your wisdom?
"The fun is in the hunt. Not the kill."
  • #205
  • Nov 7, 2018 5:46am Nov 7, 2018 5:46am
Quoting EcoTrader
{quote} Yeah you've been harping on about this to me for many weeks and yet my account continues to grow. Are you that stupid that you are telling everyone one thing and expecting them to believe you while on the other end I have an actual live account proving you are talking directly out your ass over and over again. All your pathetic incoherent responses were initially amusing, now it's just pathetic. What's next dufas are you going to tell everyone the sky is pink and expect them to believe you (same difference) {image}
you crazy girl.

ypur martingale account is pure gamling and worthless.,
with 1/10 of one trade in a acocunt i have more win then your whole account in 1 year, thats the problem with your extrem small acocunt, so you lost.
any aropker get more money from work then you with trading, so you are a pure loser in reality calculated with opportunity costs, when you would work and not trade same time...

learn thinking, when you dont learn bascis your statements are nor really smart!
  • #206
  • Nov 7, 2018 5:55am Nov 7, 2018 5:55am
Quoting tashkent
{quote} i really do not want to get involved with you too much for obvious reasons but you need to know this: the reason hedging limits your losses does not mean necessarily that it is the same thing as SL. You use SL to liquidate your losing position and look for other opportunity. You no longer will have an open trade. I think we agree on this. Hedging is mainly used for either locking the profit or loss and wait until market conditions change in your favor but you still hold open position(s). you are still in trade. You can also use hedge by...
i see your point (and that you write arguments make you to the 5% in a forum who can reach any goal and are smart enough to get in in trading), but:

in trading only net postion inside your account is important. when i speak about hedging, i speak about open same amount of the same postion in different direction.
when you have a trade opened and closed , its same when you open buy one lot and sell 1 lot and you have both "open". in reality you are flat and have nothing open, but because many beginner traders have problems with this, broker did change to split it. because brokers earn more money by this because of double rollover, they like this way very much and love such clients who waste money....

so what happends when you open 1 lot and close it, you sell one lot, nothing more, you do exactly same like with your selling 1 lot hedge trade. by closing position its netted out, by other its still open to let you merga both position for netted out or let it run for brokers advantage and your cost.
the person who closed has all same possibilities like you then have with 2 open postions, when you close your still 2 open postions you can eay open same trime and value new postion (in the account very all was closed) and have exactly same with more smart way (less cost, even less risk - depends how broker calculate it).
its really a pure extrem easy part, you can write it down with many examples on a paper - ther is not one possible way a hedge can have more win then with closing a position, maximum same win with more complicated way, when you hold the postion over rollover you get always (!!) less win.

really!
  • #207
  • Nov 7, 2018 6:10am Nov 7, 2018 6:10am
Quoting dukas_trader
{quote} i see your point (and that you write arguments make you to the 5% in a forum who can reach any goal and are smart enough to get in in trading), but: in trading only net postion inside your account is important. when i speak about hedging, i speak about open same amount of the same postion in different direction. when you have a trade opened and closed , its same when you open buy one lot and sell 1 lot and you have both "open". in reality you are flat and have nothing open, but because many beginner traders have problems with this, broker...
if you hedge the exact same amount if your position is in loss (i also use hedging to lock the profit if there is a retracement to benefit from it) then, yes it works like a stop loss since you are cutting the loss. they are similar options not the same thing though.
As Above, So Below
  • #208
  • Nov 7, 2018 6:18am Nov 7, 2018 6:18am
Quoting dukas_trader
{quote} i see your point (and that you write arguments make you to the 5% in a forum who can reach any goal and are smart enough to get in in trading), but: in trading only net postion inside your account is important. when i speak about hedging, i speak about open same amount of the same postion in different direction. when you have a trade opened and closed , its same when you open buy one lot and sell 1 lot and you have both "open". in reality you are flat and have nothing open, but because many beginner traders have problems with this, broker...
You're a pest. If you want to talk about the 5% that make it then stop saying "THIS is what I call hedging even though it isn't really hedging and everyone else is dumber now for having had to read my argument".

I'd say far more than 5% of the traders know damn well that it doesn't do anything. The rest aren't stupid for wondering if it does. You're stupid for bringing it up every time anyone says anything about ACTUAL hedging.

You aren't outsmarting anyone and you never have. They just think you are illiterate.
"The fun is in the hunt. Not the kill."
  • #209
  • Nov 7, 2018 6:54am Nov 7, 2018 6:54am
Quoting tashkent
{quote} if you hedge the exact same amount if your position is in loss (i also use hedging to lock the profit if there is a retracement to benefit from it) then, yes it works like a stop loss since you are cutting the loss. they are similar options not the same thing though.
of course i only speak about hedging full, you can also use a partially stoploss , would be same like hedging parts, .... but however.
hedging is a complicated Sl, nothing more..... not one difference, only more complicated and more expansive very often = net postion is same , thats all whats important for stoping losing from this point. its not 2 options by the way: you buy 1 lot eurusd: you can close it, then you sell 1 lot eurusd to close it for bid price, or you open hedge trade as sell eurusd for bid price.... its exactly same... not one difference. there are different options like Options ( ) and so on.. but hedge trade and SL trade is same.

but because many traders are beginners, they cant get the effect of trading net postion, and so pay the fee for complicated trading, over years you pay a lot for this...when you trade much you pay extrem.
  • #210
  • Nov 7, 2018 6:59am Nov 7, 2018 6:59am
Quoting Redeflect
{quote} You're a pest. If you want to talk about the 5% that make it then stop saying "THIS is what I call hedging even though it isn't really hedging and everyone else is dumber now for having had to read my argument". I'd say far more than 5% of the traders know damn well that it doesn't do anything. The rest aren't stupid for wondering if it does. You're stupid for bringing it up every time anyone says anything about ACTUAL hedging. You aren't outsmarting anyone and you never have. They just think you are illiterate.
are you crazy?

i only write to the misleading wrong statements here.

i know you already posted bullshit and misleading facts too, i corrected it and you started get crazy, you opened demo account (or maybe even real) and lost and lost with crazy moneymanagement.... really learn the bascis, you are still on same point many months ago! learn now! i told you nefore, start no trading with your low skills, you did not hear and lost of of course, was 100% sure its happens, ok, you lost after some days already so much, this was funny, but that you are to lazy to learn and your big ego is really a problem for you in trading.

you are not without a reason on so many blocking lists, because of your misleading facts and getting agressiv after you was corrected.

i do this 20 years, i have so many seen of your type.... this people come and go ,lose money, write bullshit, lose again, come back....go... come back and write again misleading.... i will never understand why someone starts trading without knowing basics. trading is so easy, but people like to it with learned first basics... of course learning the hard way cost you about 5 years and much money, so many give up on this way... learning the easy way really only some people do, mankind.. not really have a ego or brain for trading, this is not negative... its simple fact... you can change ego or stop trading.
  • #212
  • Nov 7, 2018 8:11am Nov 7, 2018 8:11am
Quoting dukas_trader
with 1/10 of one trade in a acocunt i have more win then your whole account in 1 year
prove it!!! words are cheap and you have an endless supply of them.
  • #213
  • Nov 7, 2018 1:27pm Nov 7, 2018 1:27pm
Quoting dukas_trader
{quote} are you crazy? i only write to the misleading wrong statements here. i know you already posted bullshit and misleading facts too, i corrected it and you started get crazy, you opened demo account (or maybe even real) and lost and lost with crazy moneymanagement.... really learn the bascis, you are still on same point many months ago! learn now! i told you nefore, start no trading with your low skills, you did not hear and lost of of course, was 100% sure its happens, ok, you lost after some days already so much, this was funny, but that...
You really are brainless.
"The fun is in the hunt. Not the kill."
  • #214
  • Nov 7, 2018 1:40pm Nov 7, 2018 1:40pm
Quoting Redeflect
{quote} Some day you'll understand what he means. I'm almost offended that he gave you one of the greatest pearls and you are trampling it into the mud like a swine. If you think you have knowledge, and experience, and good judgement... then where is your wisdom?
everything is a pearl, but only those who are outside my ignore list are friends. if you think I'm an idiot who wastes time with his stupid backtesting, then I put u in the ignore list.
  • #215
  • Nov 7, 2018 2:21pm Nov 7, 2018 2:21pm
Quoting dukas_trader
{quote}what happends when you open 1 lot and close it, you sell one lot, nothing more, you do exactly same like with your selling 1 lot hedge trade. by closing position its netted out, by other its still open to let you merga both position for netted out or let it run for brokers advantage and your cost. the person who closed has all same possibilities like you then have with 2 open postions, when you close your still 2 open postions you can eay open same trime and value new postion (in the account very all was closed) and have exactly same with...
i gave some thought to what you wrote and it makes sense. it is your use of language makes little complicated to understand what you are trying to say. i think i understood your point.
As Above, So Below
  • #216
  • Nov 7, 2018 4:56pm Nov 7, 2018 4:56pm
Quoting tashkent
{quote} i gave some thought to what you wrote and it makes sense. it is your use of language makes little complicated to understand what you are trying to say. i think i understood your point.
Underneath all his nonsense is him just saying that holding an open buy and an open sell in the same currency is the exact same as closing an open buy but ties up capital and costs swap rates. To which anyone's response is "no shit and that's not hedging". But he thinks he's a genius so he screams "THAT is hedging to me!". And the world weeps.
"The fun is in the hunt. Not the kill."
  • #217
  • Nov 7, 2018 5:08pm Nov 7, 2018 5:08pm
Quoting dukas_trader
{quote} i see your point (and that you write arguments make you to the 5% in a forum who can reach any goal and are smart enough to get in in trading), but: in trading only net postion inside your account is important. when i speak about hedging, i speak about open same amount of the same postion in different direction. when you have a trade opened and closed , its same when you open buy one lot and sell 1 lot and you have both "open". in reality you are flat and have nothing open, but because many beginner traders have problems with this, broker...
I don't think everyone is using the same definition of hedging. You are right if you open two cancelling positions at the same price point and lot size. However, it is not uncommon for traders to be both long and short the same currency at the same time at different lot sizes and price points. This is called playing both sides of the market. In most markets, both bears and bulls can make money.
If you are good at something, never do it for free--Joker
  • #218
  • Nov 7, 2018 5:19pm Nov 7, 2018 5:19pm
Quoting Redeflect
{quote} Underneath all his nonsense is him just saying that holding an open buy and an open sell in the same currency is the exact same as closing an open buy but ties up capital and costs swap rates. To which anyone's response is "no shit and that's not hedging". But he thinks he's a genius so he screams "THAT is hedging to me!". And the world weeps.
what he said is worth paying attention to, my friend. i do not care if he has called me names a few posts back but this does not affect my sense of fairness, therfore i gave him credit on this matter even though i still hold on to my opinion that hedging is not the same thing as SL, because hedging is a strategy of managing a trade and SL simply cutting the loss.
human is just an evolving animal, nothing else. therefore, if you take the ego out of the equation, you will be left with pure fight of ideas alone the outcome of which is just your own personal intellectual development. nothing else.
As Above, So Below
  • #219
  • Nov 7, 2018 5:31pm Nov 7, 2018 5:31pm
Quoting tashkent
{quote} what he said is worth paying attention to, my friend. i do not care if he has called me names a few posts back but this does not affect my sense of fairness, therfore i gave him credit on this matter even though i still hold on to my opinion that hedging is not the same thing as SL, because hedging is a strategy of managing a trade and SL simply cutting the loss. human is just an evolving animal, nothing else. therefore, if you take the ego out of the equation, you will be left with pure fight of ideas alone the outcome of which is just...
one last points. its a never ending story with such total easy topics.

there is no correct hedging, never in never possible way, in no account... we speak here about trading same currency in different direction, thats what people before told using and dont have a SL, so thats the posts i was answering.

its only correct and fair to say: no hedger ( in the kind of using same currency to hedge) is a advanced trader, he always use a bad strategy against simple use SL and reopens with less complicated and less risk and less costs. but of course its possible to make wins with hedging, only less or at max same more complicated (but never ever more, impossible by math), that is what people need to understand, but really many have there a problem, because they dont lea0nred the basics of forex trading and forex math.

and again: i have really respect for you , that you bring arguments for your statements. i like to help you in all what you will ask, whatever topic, because this bringing arguments is what people have, who can reach any goal in lfe and never ever is a second so wasted time answering to you.
when you write down in a post lets say 2-3 trades as hedge (from in, hedging and going out later), i will write it to you as SL used possibilty, and you will see how easy it is, more easy and less cost (when hedge is over rollover time open).
  • #220
  • Nov 7, 2018 5:32pm Nov 7, 2018 5:32pm
Quoting tashkent
{quote} what he said is worth paying attention to, my friend. i do not care if he has called me names a few posts back but this does not affect my sense of fairness, therfore i gave him credit on this matter even though i still hold on to my opinion that hedging is not the same thing as SL, because hedging is a strategy of managing a trade and SL simply cutting the loss. human is just an evolving animal, nothing else. therefore, if you take the ego out of the equation, you will be left with pure fight of ideas alone the outcome of which is just...
Precisely, hedging isnt the same as a SL/exit and it never was. It's diversification, MM/risk management, and part of trade management when you aren't wrong. But he's been hanging on to the strawman argument for years that opening two entirely opposite trades that entirely neutralize all opportunity to profit is "hedging" to him and makes for a bad SL.
"The fun is in the hunt. Not the kill."
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