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Pro traders who do not use SL, What about Black Swans?

  • #101
  • Nov 3, 2018 6:29am Nov 3, 2018 6:29am
Quoting kosmo
{quote} It's a very good question you should ask yourself. Why litter the forum?
Yea maybe u r right and I shall leave this playground to you.

Cheers
  • #102
  • Nov 3, 2018 6:30am Nov 3, 2018 6:30am
no sl !
so what they use, margin call ?
  • #103
  • Nov 3, 2018 6:33am Nov 3, 2018 6:33am
Quoting genghistar
{quote} Yea maybe u r right and I shall leave this playground to you. Cheers
Trading is not a playground, but I'm sure you know it.
mind over matter
  • #104
  • Nov 3, 2018 6:45am Nov 3, 2018 6:45am
Quoting kosmo
{quote} Trading is not a playground, but I'm sure you know it.
It can be. Depends which side of the fence you're on.
"The fun is in the hunt. Not the kill."
  • #105
  • Nov 3, 2018 6:48am Nov 3, 2018 6:48am
Quoting Redeflect
{quote} It can be. Depends which side of the fence you're on.
Yep, keep hunting, mate! LOL
mind over matter
  • #106
  • Nov 3, 2018 7:14am Nov 3, 2018 7:14am
Quoting Ctq
{quote} This is not a cent account. Go look tickmill up. They do offer high leverage for their VIP accounts and under tickmill prime. This is not my only account. I have been trading for some time and am willing to take some risks for good return. I am only making this record public because I am new here, and want to cut to the chase and show that I really do trade in size. I have more proof if you wish, but would you know of anyone who does trade in larger volumes?
i trade 100-200 lot often until 500 lot trades (more i dont do to come out more easy) , but i use very big six digit accounts or higher for this. i would not ever think about this with a 50.000 acocunt like you do, where 20 pip moves are account killer , that would only proof this person cant trade....

but who i am.... you look different.
  • #107
  • Edited 8:08am Nov 3, 2018 7:23am | Edited 8:08am
Quoting Cools81
Hi Dukas Trader, You seem to understand leverage and big money. Can I ask you as an intraday trader (5m Auctions) with big account (for retailer) say $1m is 200 lots realistic? Is it better to have zero leverage than 100:1 with bigger money? I use Axi Trader. What do you think of them? They have been very good to me so far. Could they handle bigger money?
200 lot with 1 million account is no problem, when you have a stoploss maybe about maximum 50 pip or when you like to risk much more per trade (depends on your risk settings and your strategy results ,but depends also on the traded currencies, tick value can be very different and how many of this positions you would like to open same time). or much more stoploss when this 1 million is of course not your only money, and only a smaller part of all. when you would have 100 million, then of course setting even no stoploss and having no negative balance payment in this account would be a quite ok stoploss of 1% for all, and even with negative balance payments would be ok in this case, when leverage is not so high.... (of course setting a SL dont say this SL will be used always for any loss trade... good traders set a SL and when trend changes the simple close trade and open often opposite direction, so SL is maybe 3-4 times hitted in the year, and many positions are closed in loss much much before SL....... but depends of strategy of course,... some like it more fix, but more difficult because trading changes and wins will be much better with with (maybe sometime its different, but in genreall its true) ... same ofcourse for TP).

your question because of leverage is diffcult, because i dont know anything about your situation:
- you have to caluculate the leverage you get from the broker, so that you have enough money left for you move until the SL (and when used spread save SL you need to have much money for big moves of spread (rollover, weekend, news..... special not planed news....)
- in generall depends how much you want risk from this money, how much is this money compared to your whole money and wealth (thats most important question always: when you see here accounts of people , you never see anything, when one is trading 1million account and having 10 million left in real estates he only makes with 100% win maybe 15% win in money all together (lets say real estate had 5% win).... when someone with a 50k account is trading whole money what he have in this account and has 10k win he already has 20% win and so much more win then other person... or more hard some with super win shown in account can have many other bigger accounts with big loss and all together this persons are extrem big losers (many many many do it this style in forums).... so only for risk and win and all stats the whole money is important (never ever one account can show something when you dont know the whole wealth of a person, all staticstics from this account are then total wrong!),... because you dont see this in forums all this accounts say nothing... most people will never know and never understand this fact and are easy to scam because dont learn the trading basics....) ---> and same for your leverage and risk: calculate all to your whole money, not only account size, and then you can deside if all is enough money in account to leverage possible by broker
- your strategy should decide how much you trade: you always should come out of a trade very easy... in special currencies or times 200 lot maybe has much more problems coming out with good spread in a move in opposite to many currencies like eurusd.....

- so many points for decision important i would need to add

for more exactly, you can ask of course.

after learning basics the designing of trading structure should be done first, so at what broker what parts or all in one broker (because most shortterm and added commission get extrem low fee costs on the end...), or do i need options to secure long time trades 100% sure, how to secure the balances inside broker (bonds, shares, bank guarantess......).. and and and.... and rest comes in next step...
  • #108
  • Nov 3, 2018 7:48am Nov 3, 2018 7:48am
Quoting genghistar
{quote} Which is why I have always advocated using sl tho I don't have to especially if I am tracking my trades. In addition: 1. We can only know to follow the footprints of the PA and Nobody can know what price will eventually go but its imperative you must know when it turns. And when it turn, beside exiting and executing a new trade you must also know whether its just a pullback, retracement, consolidation or a intra-day reversal in order to set your target price. Reward Ratio must be at least 2x or more than the sl depending on what the market...
1.then you already did your mental stop higher then the moves, so set this SL at this higher values....i understand also your point, but a SL is a hard stoploss for failing many points: internet away, broker not connected... you get health problems... fast big news when you blink with eye the move is done...
a SL is not there to be hit most of time, a normal trader should have maybe 1% of his loss trades with SL setted first, rest closed much much much smaller with rest of the 99%...... (in many strategies often can take years until one original SL is hit)

2. only as help for you and to think about: when you would be correct with not setting the SL, simple set on this aereas ,where you dont want put in the SL at the moment and have the mental SL , a limitorder. when you then have many wins from this limitorders you are correct and stoploss was wrong, when not the stoploss was correct. and simple delete limit order when you would like to use mental stoploss now on your order (or close later original order in profit or at whatever price) and same time simple close opened limitorder in this moment or delete the unfilled limitorder.
after a short while you will see, you was correct with your arguments or stoploss would have been better. but not using limitorder is not smart, because when you are correct with mental SL is better then hard Sl inside you would earn a lot with this limiorder strategy. you cant lose with this, you win money when you are correct and you get information if other way is much better...... win/win
  • #109
  • Nov 3, 2018 9:59am Nov 3, 2018 9:59am
Quoting dukas_trader
{quote} i trade 100-200 lot often until 500 lot trades (more i dont do to come out more easy) , but i use very big six digit accounts or higher for this. i would not ever think about this with a 50.000 acocunt like you do, where 20 pip moves are account killer , that would only proof this person cant trade.... but who i am.... you look different.
Great! Would you be willing to share more about which brokers are good in handling that kind of lot size then? Do you use Fix api? Maybe we could take this topic offline if you prefer?
  • #110
  • Nov 3, 2018 10:34am Nov 3, 2018 10:34am
Use IC Markets. Apparently they're the broker with the 2nd largest volume traded. I think the 1st is IG. But I'm pretty sure IC Markets has better spreads.
  • #111
  • Edited 1:48pm Nov 3, 2018 1:28pm | Edited 1:48pm
Quoting Ctq
{quote} Great! Would you be willing to share more about which brokers are good in handling that kind of lot size then? Do you use Fix api? Maybe we could take this topic offline if you prefer?
with million accounts depends how much money you have all together..... and how you want trade (all in one broker or over many brokers... and how you secure all inside broker, so that its not a problem when broker crashes.... all easy topics , but different with different solutions....

with 1 mill account you should do:

- 200 lots (so 20 million) can any prime broker handle without any problem (depends also if you want limit order, stop order, market order, and to what spread...)- 200 lot is not much, so until 500 lot you dont would see any problem in main currencies...
- test 6 prime brokers (maybe we can talk privat about or look for the thread "prime of prime brokers") - some prime brokers do it from 100k/250k, most from 500k or 1 mill... when its a broker with very high number, you can often show the trackrecord from your old broker, and when the payed commission is 5 numbers and more each month and constant enough traded volume they let you test with small numbers (100k and more, smaller is useless), the competition between the brokers is high.... so they often like to get whole money from other broker...and let you test thatswhy all you want.. - whats very important, always have inside the broker 1 (only 1) person you speak all with (in your natural language), its always possible, and this person than is doing all you ask for, let platform changed to that its ok for you or whatever , hires programmers,......, all is possible, there are no rules as long that other clients dont have negative because of this... and they do near all for new big clients... so have a very good relation with this 1 person , thats what makes trading simple and very efficient....
- if you use MT4, brokers own trading station, pamm/mam solutions ,api .. depends from broker to broker ... best solution is always api and then connect each Liquity provider ....but tell the broker what you need and most say you whats possible or what they can add...
- after testing you bring in the bigger money to the brokers you are satisfied with....and let the other brokers chnage what dont suit you or simple dont trade there anymore... normal business... you need to decide fast or can lose many time... dont give them more then 2 weeks for changing some points (at maximum 2 weeks)..
- many depends on what style you want to trade... scalping, arbitrage, longterm....how you entry, limitorder, stop orders, market orders..... so often different brokers better when you use theior standard trading environment, with api often ist all same... only when you trade to shortterm and have good wins some liquity providers will give you bigger spreads or kick you out, because this houses make to much loss over time....... the market is often not taht big that anyone think, not for what someone want have to a special time for a special maximum spread....

because i dont know how you trade, what money, what wealth all together, what time open till close, newstrading, arbitrage,... whatever.... more informations are not really possible. rest really in privat message when neccessary , never write down any personal informations in thread!
  • #112
  • Nov 3, 2018 3:21pm Nov 3, 2018 3:21pm
BEEN THERE.. waste of time

do it only if you buy and hold at least 30 stocks with no leverage
  • #113
  • Nov 3, 2018 3:25pm Nov 3, 2018 3:25pm
Quoting HeyYou
BEEN THERE.. waste of time do it only if you buy and hold at least 30 stocks with no leverage

returns are very small (5-10% year on average!)
  • #114
  • Nov 4, 2018 1:21am Nov 4, 2018 1:21am
I was just going through the history and got to know that this happened in 2015 flash crash.
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: Swiss-Franc-crisis-infographic.jpg Size: 782 KB
Markets are Irrational
  • #115
  • Nov 4, 2018 3:20am Nov 4, 2018 3:20am
always use any type of stop,mental or hard or traling ,but never leave a trade on its own.It may go agasint you and come back to that level after few months or years,you will lose a lot of money in paying swaps and commissions,its not smart to leave a trade without stops.
  • #116
  • Nov 4, 2018 7:32am Nov 4, 2018 7:32am
Quoting dukas_trader
{quote} total wrong question. there is no pro trader who dont use stoploss, only maybe pro traders who call themself pro trader but are only still beginners. when you dont use a SL (and hedging for the beginners is also a SL) you cant calculate your risk, when you cant calculate your risk at all. then you are not really a trader, you are a gambler.
I am not sure if the question could be any more clearer? But, when you claim Hedging, calculating risk, ....This is "managing your trade" and any trader is doing it. However, Catastrophic event, or a sudden unexpected release on Brexit while I am not looking at my screen..is my concern
and regarding ALL Pro traders part...Sorry, You do not know all Pro traders...because some of them are doing it already for years!!
  • #117
  • Nov 4, 2018 7:37am Nov 4, 2018 7:37am
Quoting Jbomb21990
{quote} I am assuming (per quotes on your chart) that it would all be in "god's plan"...so why worry...
This is right..and He asks us to use our brain
  • #118
  • Nov 4, 2018 7:57am Nov 4, 2018 7:57am
Quoting Oldtraderman
{quote} All professional trading & investment organisations have a risk management function of some sort because they don't want the firm to go broke on the outcome of a single event or trade. It can be any combination of stop loss systems, hedging, VAR (value at risk) analysis or many other statistical variants. But they do not conduct business without risk management tools in place, it's a fundamental part of the operation. But they still can & do go bust because enormous black swan events take them by surprise, things their risk models suggested...
See you nailed my point! I am focusing now on maximizing my profitability as a short term goal but of course my odds are lowered if something happened so I was wondering how already people managed to survive these events if they were holding a position.. As you mentioned Surprisingly some firms/ traders even with Their risk management models they ended in losses in case of enormous ones...
  • #119
  • Nov 4, 2018 8:00am Nov 4, 2018 8:00am
Quoting spotrate
What good is a stoploss if it's not honored by the broker during such events? I remember reading posts from a few people complaining that their stoploss was ignored during such events and their accounts blew up. You pretty much have to be a professional in the industry, a city trader, if you're going to use stoploss because that's how the professionals generate the liquidity they need (by hunting your stops). So you'll hear all day from the professionals about the importance of stoploss but that's because: (1) they know where to place theirs, and...
It is a good point!
  • #120
  • Nov 4, 2018 8:07am Nov 4, 2018 8:07am
Quoting Redeflect
{quote} And how much do you normally risk on a trading day? The question will forever remain.
Excuse me
I do not want to exceed 33%
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