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  • #281
  • Sep 30, 2018 5:25pm Sep 30, 2018 5:25pm
Quoting dukas_trader
{quote} because i correct your mistake, you dont have any arguments, you dont want learn the basics.....?? it would be more easy when you simple say "thanks for help me with this big mistake" and not writing more and more inside this mistake, when you already checked your mistake. when you dont check it, ask what its your problem and you will be helped! thatswhy forum exists! we speak about total basics and you are really 100% wrong, that not subjective in this kind of mistake! i really feel sometimes , some people dont deserve beeing helped. sorry...
really?

how do you know that your argument is right and mine is wrong? by knowledge or mere sake of arguing?

obviously you don't know shit about how the forex market works behind the scenes.

let me explain it in another view point:

- Forex retail orders are only matched against Liquidity providers. meaning; the other side of the trade; is a liquidity provider; and is NOT a retail trader.
- Liquidity providers' orders are only matched with clients. They do not match against other liquidity providers' orders. This is why you have zero spread sometimes in Forex; and even negative spreads as well. You don't see that in stock market.
- THERE IS NO SUCH A THING AS A TRUE LIMIT ORDER in the ECNs. All orders are market orders. (with exception to LMAX; that allows TRUE LIMIT ORDER; and allows retail traders to match their orders against each other; which is how stock market works)
- If you submit a limit order; your broker; or the aggregator (aka ECN) holds your limit order; and turn it to a market order once the market moves to your requested limit price.
- In other words; Limit order or stop orders works the same way. They are turned to market orders by the broker or ECN.
- Finally; you presume that I use mt4 for trading. I do not; nor CTrader. I use API and trade directly with the ECNs.

If you want to be successful in trading; you need to have an open mind; and understand that your knowledge may be limited; or may be wrong.

So before you argue blindly; research the matter first.
  • #282
  • Sep 30, 2018 6:41pm Sep 30, 2018 6:41pm
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Toxic Flow for FX Brokers.
  • #283
  • Oct 1, 2018 12:13am Oct 1, 2018 12:13am
I have read what DT and AD wrote. As a uber rookie/hobby trader, I cant take sides, cause I know nothing in details... and do not want to learn. I am interested in what is the annual/monthly direction of the trend, one and only.

Still, this thing with the LPs, described by AD, tells me, it is 100% gamble scheme. There is not any trading going on here at Forex. It is 100% pure betting. If the LPs are taking the other side of each trade? They won't be here in this business for nothing. Certainly not for losing any money...

This explains why only 4 out of 10,000 traders are successful? In the LPs owns stats, that's 100% losers.

That is how they are looking at us, the retail traders. 100% losers. With consistent winners of just 4 out 10,000, that is 100% clean business, sort of.
Maadik Hugiis. IQ 69.
  • #284
  • Edited 2:02am Oct 1, 2018 1:34am | Edited 2:02am
Quoting MoneyZilla
I have read what DT and AD wrote. As a uber rookie/hobby trader, I cant take sides, cause I know nothing in details... and do not want to learn. I am interested in what is the annual/monthly direction of the trend, one and only. Still, this thing with the LPs, described by AD, tells me, it is 100% gamble scheme. There is not any trading going on here at Forex. It is 100% pure betting. If the LPs are taking the other side of each trade? They won't be here in this business for nothing. Certainly not for losing any money... This explains why only 4...
pretty much. it is Tigers eat Dogs situation

this is why "last look" festure exists for LPs. they can delay or reject some retail traders' orders based on profitability.

if you are profitable trader notice that slippage gets larger after banking some profits over time. this means some LPs have identified you as a toxic flow trader and start rejecting you.

but dont worry; regulators have started reviewing the Forex industry. sooner or later the bandits will be outlawed.

FXCM was caught red handed doing exactly the above. Their CEO is banned and perhaps is selling Murtabaks in NY streets now.
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  • #285
  • Oct 1, 2018 2:13am Oct 1, 2018 2:13am
Quoting alphadude
{quote} pretty much. it is Tigers eat Dogs situation this is why "last look" festure exists for LPs. they can delay or reject some retail traders' orders based on profitability. if you are profitable trader notice that slippage gets larger after banking some profits over time. this means some LPs have identified you as a toxic flow trader and start rejecting you.
Thanks for the info, Alpha.

I always imagined I have to make my systems work only with 0.01 lot in size. Aiming at 80%, at least, monthly returns (on 10k accounts), or higher. It might sound crazy, but I already have it into my back pocket. It is just 0.01 sized trades everywhere. The profits come from the average price and a couple of other interactions with the annual trend.

Regarding that, my question to you is, can I still stay below their radars?

Trading 0.01 lot trades and making some nice monthly returns, still, will this still be detected by the LPs?

What do you think?

I am quite worried, as I have invested over 200k already. Of which I have around -150k development costs and -65k trading losses I have to cover to break even with trading. Still my developments costs are to be recovered and if they fight so strong with the small fish like me, I wonder if I can get my investments back, even with 0.01 sized trades?
Maadik Hugiis. IQ 69.
  • #286
  • Oct 1, 2018 2:24am Oct 1, 2018 2:24am
Quoting MoneyZilla
{quote} Thanks for the info, Alpha. I always imagined I have to make my systems work only with 0.01 lot in size. Aiming at 80%, at least, monthly returns (on 10k accounts), or higher. It might sound crazy, but I already have it into my back pocket. It is just 0.01 sized trades everywhere. The profits come from the average price and a couple of other interactions with the annual trend. Regarding that, my question to you is, can I still stay below their radars? Trading 0.01 lot trades and making some nice monthly returns, still, will this still be...
of course you can still make money. it is just that bandits gets to share with you some of that profit. think about is as rebates from profitable traders to LPs.

you are under the radar with micro lots
  • #287
  • Oct 1, 2018 2:29am Oct 1, 2018 2:29am
Quoting alphadude
{quote} of course you can still make money... you are under the radar with micro lots
Thanks a lot!

I have found some crazy setups, where I increment the lot by just 0.01 with every next trade behind my back and the result gets crazy, like driving 10k to 200-300-400-500k in about 100 days, but then the lot per trade goes over 1-2 lots and I thought, this can't be allowed. They will probably ban me...

Thanks for the answer, again, I thought it is a stupid idea to have profit curves like these. I will rather stick to the low profile trading and trade for longer. I hope.
Maadik Hugiis. IQ 69.
  • #288
  • Edited 6:42am Oct 1, 2018 6:25am | Edited 6:42am
Quoting alphadude
{quote} really? how do you know that your argument is right and mine is wrong? by knowledge or mere sake of arguing? obviously you don't know shit about how the forex market works behind the scenes. let me explain it in another view point: - Forex retail orders are only matched against Liquidity providers. meaning; the other side of the trade; is a liquidity provider; and is NOT a retail trader. - Liquidity providers' orders are only matched with clients. They do not match against other liquidity providers' orders. This is why you have zero spread...
wait , i dont know where to start to correct you:
so you use API, thats ok. but:
- how much is your agreed standard trading size or bandsize you get your agreement with the prime broker?
maybe you have an higher size and so your order is often not filled because of the amount not possible quoted and no partially filling possible there?
- maybe bad broker...
- i dont know if you have splitted agrreements with each liquidty provider or one solution between to aggregate all...
- i dont know if you use a standard frontend or something own created...

--> so to many possibilites why you have this difference with your brokers, that price need some pipettes behind limit order before you get filled.... and by the way, the order is the still sended as limit order, not market order to liquity provider, or you would get negative slippage very often with limit orders (so filled worst then the limit order price - this have some bad brokers unfortunatelly and makes trading extrem risky), so i hope you dont have this what you tell here, that limit order is sended as market order after triggering and there is a difference.

its really hard to say whats your impessions when i dont know what prime broker you use and what api agrrement you have with this broker. so i dont know why you hit this problems.
but really, all this is easy to solve with an good prime broker.

and yes, all orders are matched with liquity providers, but you know that in a good pime broker the client can act as liquity provider himself? not only the banks are liquity providers ...so also retail traders can be liquity providers....
and when you are a good shortterm trader you get often liquqity provider who dont want trade with you and then you start to see what exactly happens inside this houses......

so, what ever, looks your experience in trading is so much different then my experience, and because i dont know you solution (and most is total private and should be) i cant give you help in this case.
  • #289
  • Edited 8:09am Oct 1, 2018 6:41am | Edited 8:09am
In trading, everyone is fighting or racing to get the price they wanted.
It’s like catching falling knife.
Everyone can’t have the price that they asking/bidding for especially when the market is volatile.
Liquidity provider just like banks, when we want to buy an underlying instrument, they will sell it high to us.
If we want to sell, they buy it as cheap as possible from us.
That is how they make profit, from the spread.
Unlike banks where the currency rate rate doesn’t change every tick as in spot market. There won’t be slippage when you buy an underying asset outside spot market like from banks. The downside to this is the spread is high. Unlike in spot market, the spread can be 0.5 pips (raw spread). In banks the spread can be 60 pips and more.
So yeah, if you guys dont want slippage, you can buy directly from banks but with big spread.
Or you can accept slippage buying from brokers with LP’s raw spread 0.x pips + commission, which often is 10x smaller than the bank’s spread and slippage can occured because price moves constantly and volatile in the spot market and the LP won’t buy/sell with the price that doesn’t exists due to market volatility such as sudden spike!

60 pips spread on EURUSD on Commerzbank
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This is not investment/trading advise. Will not hold accountable for loss
  • #290
  • Oct 1, 2018 8:09am Oct 1, 2018 8:09am
Quoting yousername
In trading, everyone is fighting or racing to get the price they wanted. It’s like catching falling knife. Everyone can’t have the price that they asking/bidding for especially when the market is volatile. Liquidity provider just like banks, when we want to buy an underlying instrument, they will sell it high to us. If we want to sell, they buy it as cheap as possible from us. That is how they make profit, from the spread. Unlike banks where the currency rate rate doesn’t change every tick as in spot market. There won’t be slippage when you buy...
Correction the difference between Bank's and LP's spot price can be >50x more expensive.
Trading using LP's raw spread can be as low as 0.2 pips + broker's commission i.e. 0.5 pips = 0.7 pips cost
With banks can be >60pips.
As you can see it is >80x more expensive trading using Bank's rate and for sure there's no slippage....
This is not investment/trading advise. Will not hold accountable for loss
  • #291
  • Oct 1, 2018 10:57am Oct 1, 2018 10:57am
"really?

how do you know that your argument is right and mine is wrong? by knowledge or mere sake of arguing?

obviously you don't know shit about how the forex market works behind the scenes.

let me explain it in another view point:

- Forex retail orders are only matched against Liquidity providers. meaning; the other side of the trade; is a liquidity provider; and is NOT a retail trader.
- Liquidity providers' orders are only matched with clients. They do not match against other liquidity providers' orders. This is why you have zero spread sometimes in Forex; and even negative spreads as well. You don't see that in stock market.
- THERE IS NO SUCH A THING AS A TRUE LIMIT ORDER in the ECNs. All orders are market orders. (with exception to LMAX; that allows TRUE LIMIT ORDER; and allows retail traders to match their orders against each other; which is how stock market works)
- If you submit a limit order; your broker; or the aggregator (aka ECN) holds your limit order; and turn it to a market order once the market moves to your requested limit price.
- In other words; Limit order or stop orders works the same way. They are turned to market orders by the broker or ECN.
- Finally; you presume that I use mt4 for trading. I do not; nor CTrader. I use API and trade directly with the ECNs.

If you want to be successful in trading; you need to have an open mind; and understand that your knowledge may be limited; or may be wrong.

So before you argue blindly; research the matter first"




Alphadude,

do not waste your time with the KNOWN BROKER TROLL "duffas_TROLL".

He has been EXPOSED long ago, see here:

https://www.forexfactory.com/showthr...1#post11535801


He gets paid by some evil entity for spreading misinformation.


He does not understand that there is NO CENTRALIZED order book in FX.

He does not understand the PROVEN market manipulation (see the Department of Justice statement in my thread).

He tries to convince newbies that doing MT4 backtesting without a tickdata software would be representative etc.


I do not think he will be on this forum for long. Because he breaches the CoC every day; curses on people and lies.

I believe that at some point, the forum will do something about him.


He is a lonely, disturbed person full of hate, who does NOT TRADE at all, who did not contribute ANYTHING of value to the forum here and who tries his BEST TO KEEP the secret market mechanics secret.


Stay safe,
FF
www.sme-fx.com
  • #292
  • Oct 1, 2018 10:58am Oct 1, 2018 10:58am
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www.sme-fx.com
  • #293
  • Oct 1, 2018 11:51am Oct 1, 2018 11:51am
Quoting FractalFreak
"really? how do you know that your argument is right and mine is wrong? by knowledge or mere sake of arguing? obviously you don't know shit about how the forex market works behind the scenes. let me explain it in another view point: - Forex retail orders are only matched against Liquidity providers. meaning; the other side of the trade; is a liquidity provider; and is NOT a retail trader. - Liquidity providers' orders are only matched with clients. They do not match against other liquidity providers' orders. This is why you have zero spread sometimes...

really fractalfreak??

after your fakeing, cheating, scamming and fraud starting was exposed, you start now to follow me in any thread and write your bullshit?
what a shame you are so useless, but much bigger shame you try to misleading people in forum, start big fraud and hope to get some money for faking all what you can....

you will never be a good member of this forum, any day you proof yourself as very bad character , your only goal is to try to impress the beginner and idiots of the forum and later you want press so money out of the idiots who believe your copy cat fraud.

at least you are a extrem big fraudster, and to stupid to start own fraud, you simple only copied the forex orderbook fraud.

its really boring to see you following me in any thread with your bullshit and faking and writing wrong facts.
  • #294
  • Oct 2, 2018 6:33am Oct 2, 2018 6:33am
Quoting alphadude
{quote} in most FX brokers (except Lmax); limit order is no different than market order. Actually it is worse in terms of slippage. this is because you are trading with liquidity providers. your limit order will not execute until the market moves against you by few pippettes; effectively creating slippage for your order. yes you get trade price at your limit price but the market has moved agaimst you already. you can try it. submit a limit order and watch the action; record the bid/ask when your order get filled.
I'm interested to know what broker is giving you negative slippage on limit orders?
  • #295
  • Edited 7:29am Oct 2, 2018 7:15am | Edited 7:29am
Quoting DemoForever
{quote} I'm interested to know what broker is giving you negative slippage on limit orders?
he dont know exactly this effect correct. he know some of the basics (but not what really is the result of this), but dont looks like he tested many brokers or he trades a long time.
same time he use ecn api connections, so normaly he should have learned this basics already, however.... not so easy to help him when he thinks he is correct with such a mistake... and same time he hopes other are open minded to this mistake and he cant see he is blinded by his own mistake. very difficult for him maybe at this point to see the truth.

he is using very bad brokers or is not knowing about the fact, that he collects bid/ask for other trading amount then he is trading.... so he is coming to this big mistake.

he is 100% wrong with this... at least when he use not very bad brokers... looks like he dont get the positive slippage when price is going over limitprice some pippettes, in a normal good broker a limitorder is more often filled with positve slippage then at limitprice (when not traded many millions/lots per trade).

there are brokers (some brokers, not what he is writing, that only lmax is different, this was again total wrong!,lmax is not even a very good broker, only a "ok" broker for "beginning") , where limitorder are after triggering sended as market orders, but not really much, because thats a big risk for trading and no real calculation possible. its not difficult to avoid such brokers.
  • #296
  • Oct 2, 2018 8:04am Oct 2, 2018 8:04am
Quoting MoneyZilla
{quote} Thanks a lot! I have found some crazy setups, where I increment the lot by just 0.01 with every next trade behind my back and the result gets crazy, like driving 10k to 200-300-400-500k in about 100 days, but then the lot per trade goes over 1-2 lots and I thought, this can't be allowed. They will probably ban me... Thanks for the answer, again, I thought it is a stupid idea to have profit curves like these. I will rather stick to the low profile trading and trade for longer. I hope.

You are overthinking; keep trading the way you are, nothing bad will happen.. You will get into leverage/lot size limits imposed by your broker in the first place before anything else

oh.. and withdraw the money and start all over again; a "small" account with full leverage its better than having a huge account with almost no leverage
  • #297
  • Oct 2, 2018 9:00am Oct 2, 2018 9:00am
Quoting dukas_trader
{quote} he dont know exactly this effect correct. he know some of the basics (but not what really is the result of this), but dont looks like he tested many brokers or he trades a long time. same time he use ecn api connections, so normaly he should have learned this basics already, however.... not so easy to help him when he thinks he is correct with such a mistake... and same time he hopes other are open minded to this mistake and he cant see he is blinded by his own mistake. very difficult for him maybe at this point to see the truth. he is using...
once you understand the difference between liquidity taking vs making you will get the point. meanwhile i cant help you if you cant help yourself

limit order is designed to provide liquidity hence save on the cost of spread. this aint the way it works in FX
  • #298
  • Oct 2, 2018 9:04am Oct 2, 2018 9:04am
Quoting DemoForever
{quote} I'm interested to know what broker is giving you negative slippage on limit orders?
please define slippage for me so i can help answer your question.
  • #299
  • Oct 2, 2018 9:12am Oct 2, 2018 9:12am
Quoting alphadude
{quote} once you understand the difference between liquidity taking vs making you will get the point. meanwhile i cant help you if you cant help yourself limit order is designed to provide liquidity hence save on the cost of spread. this aint the way it works in FX
once you learn bascis what a limit order vs whats a real market order, and you learn that limit order is not same like market order (maybe only with your bad brokers who transfer all your orders in market orders???) and when you learn that slippage can be extrem positive slippage with good brokers with limiorders,.... oh man thats so many points you miss, i dont know where to start..... when you start some day learn this basics, you can know how crazy wrong you was with your first statement about limit orders.

and by the way: "difference between liquidity taking vs making you will get the point" is such a easy topic, and has nothing to do with your first statement about limit order differences and transformation, only just to help you! when you have problems with your limit orders, its really on your side and you did something wrong (wrong broker, wrong agreement, wrong basics learned, whatever......) , i really dont know how to help you in this case because you look not very experienced in this case and looks like your api ecn experience is extrem small and looks like you start try to find out in the moment what is working? take some years or month, and then rethink what you tell here, or ask your brokers and they will help you with this limitorder mistake (and dont ask only lmax, take some good advanced brokers and dont believe all what lmax is telling you that they are only one with true limitorders, find out the reality and improve your knowledge !).

but really, do it, such a mistakes can cost you much money, because limit orders happen so often by entry and exit , when you trade big volume.
  • #300
  • Oct 2, 2018 9:16am Oct 2, 2018 9:16am
Quoting dukas_trader
{quote} once you learn bascis what a limit order vs whats a real market order, and you learn that limit order is not same like market order (mayb only with your bad brokers who transfer all your orders in market orders???) and when you learn that slippage can be xextrem psoitive slippage with good brokers,.... oh man thats so many points you miss, i dont know where to start..... when yu start some day learn this bascis, you can knowhow craty wrong you was with your first statement. and by the way: difference between liquidity taking vs making you...
I wonder why CP got tired of you. you are a man full of negative energy; you are draining the swamp.
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