Disliked{quote} It's a renko chart. Without the time component, you don't get "signals" on a chart that just chops back and forth anymore, but you also lose the idea of how far / how fast if you can't watch it all the time, because the time component is missing. It's a trade-off really. I condensed everything I learned from this thread and others into the x signs. It's pretty much impossible to lose money following them, even spread and comm included. BTW, today's E/U is a nice example why you shouldn't short from the daily high. Imagine the pain.Ignored
Higher Edge within a Single Candlestick
- #1,822
- Nov 22, 2017 1:45pm Nov 22, 2017 1:45pm
- | Joined Jul 2012 | Status: Trader | 1,170 Posts
{quote} I condensed everything I learned from this thread and others into the x signs.
?
{quote} Yes. Maybe. Or not. ...Honestly I have no idea what the market makers in an OTC crapshot funfair market like FX can or can't do. You tell me. ...
NO MATTER THE SITUATION,NEVER LET YOUR EMOTIONS OVERPOWER YOUR INTELLIGENCE
- #1,824
- Edited 9:47pm Nov 23, 2017 8:47pm | Edited 9:47pm
- Joined May 2009 | Status: Trader | 1,879 Posts
Raw market generated data is not reported as a linear series. Lets define exactly what is a candlestick/bar chart.......
The market is reported as ticks, Price and the time in which it occurred (2D)
What happens next is the data is "subjectively" broken into TF's ( 1m, 5m, 15m, and 30m.etc.) depending on the viewer. This artificially skews the data. Each place where the data has been "subjectively" broken into TF's creates a artificial high and a low. This is "subjective" info because it is biased by the observer's choice of TF. Already you have "flaws" in your data set. You are now using data "once removed" from its original market generated Price *Time format.
As I mentioned before
Tick data does not have an open, high, low, or close quote it simply tells the previous price. The OHLC quotes occur only after tick data has been collected and coerced into interval data, such as one minute, one hour, one day, or any other selected duration". the forex charting companion -Archer
Pasted from <https://www.forexfactory.com/showthr...6#post10357556>
Now that the data has subjectively been broken into TF's. The data inside the timeframe(candlestick) is now "sorted" (rearranged) into a linear "series" from high to low forming a bar/candle. Now you have skewed your data set once again. Remember the tick data didn't start out as a linear series. Now your data is "twice removed" from it's original context (market generated price *time format) Your candlestick TF's only look like a "series" of prices from high to low, because you manipulated the data to do so.
This is not what the industry considers to be "Market Generated info"
What is market generated info?
Trading data from market activity organized to display both price and time
"The difference between the current, "illogical" approach and the "logical" approach is the type of information used and how it is analyzed (e. g. , outside information related to the market versus market-generated information related to it).
In the current state, almost all transactional information, information derived from newspapers, retrieval services, and even live quotes disseminated by vendors, falls into the classification of "information outside the market". (Most people are surprised that live quotes are not included in the other category, market-generated information. But upon examination, live market quotes are not formulated into a statistically measurable and logically sound arrangement of data which provides information. ) In other words, transactional information is either presented in tabular, numerical form or else reorganized and presented in graphic chart form". -J.Peter.Steidlmayer Markets and Market logic
OHLC data is such a skewed "misrepresentation" of market generated info, it is classified as "outside info"……..
what's the opposite of "outside info"?......"inside (informed) info"
You have no edge when you're trading using "outside info"…...
You need real "market generated info" to make sound & logical trading decisions
The market is reported as ticks, Price and the time in which it occurred (2D)
What happens next is the data is "subjectively" broken into TF's ( 1m, 5m, 15m, and 30m.etc.) depending on the viewer. This artificially skews the data. Each place where the data has been "subjectively" broken into TF's creates a artificial high and a low. This is "subjective" info because it is biased by the observer's choice of TF. Already you have "flaws" in your data set. You are now using data "once removed" from its original market generated Price *Time format.
As I mentioned before
Tick data does not have an open, high, low, or close quote it simply tells the previous price. The OHLC quotes occur only after tick data has been collected and coerced into interval data, such as one minute, one hour, one day, or any other selected duration". the forex charting companion -Archer
Pasted from <https://www.forexfactory.com/showthr...6#post10357556>
Now that the data has subjectively been broken into TF's. The data inside the timeframe(candlestick) is now "sorted" (rearranged) into a linear "series" from high to low forming a bar/candle. Now you have skewed your data set once again. Remember the tick data didn't start out as a linear series. Now your data is "twice removed" from it's original context (market generated price *time format) Your candlestick TF's only look like a "series" of prices from high to low, because you manipulated the data to do so.
This is not what the industry considers to be "Market Generated info"
What is market generated info?
Trading data from market activity organized to display both price and time
"The difference between the current, "illogical" approach and the "logical" approach is the type of information used and how it is analyzed (e. g. , outside information related to the market versus market-generated information related to it).
In the current state, almost all transactional information, information derived from newspapers, retrieval services, and even live quotes disseminated by vendors, falls into the classification of "information outside the market". (Most people are surprised that live quotes are not included in the other category, market-generated information. But upon examination, live market quotes are not formulated into a statistically measurable and logically sound arrangement of data which provides information. ) In other words, transactional information is either presented in tabular, numerical form or else reorganized and presented in graphic chart form". -J.Peter.Steidlmayer Markets and Market logic
OHLC data is such a skewed "misrepresentation" of market generated info, it is classified as "outside info"……..
what's the opposite of "outside info"?......"inside (informed) info"
You have no edge when you're trading using "outside info"…...
You need real "market generated info" to make sound & logical trading decisions
Markets are not efficient, rather they are effective - Jones
- #1,825
- Nov 23, 2017 9:17pm Nov 23, 2017 9:17pm
- Joined May 2009 | Status: Trader | 1,879 Posts
Raw market generated data is not reported as a linear series. Lets define exactly what is a candlestick/bar chart....... {image} The market is reported as ticks, Price and the time in which it occurred (2D) What happens next is the data is "subjectively" broken into TF's ( 1m, 5m, 15m, and 30m.etc.) depending on the viewer. This artificially skews the data. Each place where the data has been "subjectively" broken into TF's creates a artificial high and a low. This is "subjective" info because it is biased by the observer's choice of TF. Already...
In that series of data can you tell which "price" in that range of prices was valued most?
In that series of data can you tell which "price" in that range of prices was valued least?
Can you tell me which printed first? The High or the Low?
There isn't any info in which to make a informed logical trading decision.
OHLC conveys no info…………….
What is market generated info?
Trading data from market activity organized to display both price and time
In keeping with the original price time format of "market generated info"
Price measured over time is "Market generated info", because it displays both price and time
Without manipulating altering the data by turning the data into spaghetti……..using the data in it's original price*time market generated format you can now simply count/tally (frequency) of "time spent at price"
Price over time is a single multidimensional display of prices used over time. How often is price used across the x axis. Not the vertical "price at time "y (H-L, L-H) axis
What makes one price any more or less valued than any another price? By how often was it used. You now have measurable and quantifiable distinctions between prices. That conveys info. That tells you something about the market.
Using market generated info/data, price over time............
There was little enthusiasm at prices above 4702 although the buyer at 4710 likely was proving the old Russian proverb "there are two fools in a market, one asks too little, one pays too much". Bidders spent little time at the higher prices, recognizing they were not realistic
Note that value is a range, not just one price. This is because value is found from many votes (bids) and each person voting (bidding) has a somewhat different opinion derived from their biases and their interpretation of the feedback data (the bidding).
There is a resistance outside (above or below) the general consensus/agreement.
Demand can be read from the frequency of times a price has been used........
Markets are not efficient, rather they are effective - Jones
- #1,826
- Nov 23, 2017 9:33pm Nov 23, 2017 9:33pm
- Joined May 2009 | Status: Trader | 1,879 Posts
Demand differs at various prices.
A day's recorded summary prices (open, high, low and close/candlesticks) can provide misleading signals: There is typically little trading volume at the highs and lows, so these prices are often not representative of market demand. Likewise, the open and close may well be near the low volume highs and/or lows and themselves may not be representative.
"market generated info" price over time conveys info
The prices most utilized by TA/Candles, the high and low, are in reality the prices least valued (traded the least) by the market. Likewise, the open, in this case, was also quickly rejected, but is used by TA/candles to form a base.
A candlestick is piss poor, non-representative data in their construction. Every day's high and low are those prices least valued by the market.
There's not enough trading (prices being used) in those areas (H&L) that creates any real S&R
Trading decisions taken on the basis of piss poor data are unlikely to prove to be good predictors of the market's future path or even provide a reasonable picture of the current market situation.
But the point is candlesticks aren't even considered to be "market generated info".
Market data in its rawest form is 2 dimensional,
But why is it more popular to view a 1 dimensional bar/candle chart for a market that reports 2 dimensional data? Why? Because it's FREE. It is cheap easily available. Its provided FREE on every chart platform, and it takes no effort from the trader.
Retail & Novice traders take the path of least resistance/effort when it comes to learning and trading the market.
Tick data (price in its rawest form) is reported as price and the time in which it occurred. In order to access raw tick data (price time data) you either have pay, create indicators, subscribe to different type of platform, work it out on a spreadsheet etc. It actually takes work/effort.
Not very attractive for those who chose the path of least resistance/effort. It is so much easier to look at a bar/candle chart which is a 1 dimensional linear display of 2 dimensional data. Because its free, takes no effort, and the work is already done for you in the form of a bar/candle chart.
90% of traders lose probably because 90% of traders use bar/candle charts for analysis. It doesn't matter to a retail trader, that you can demonstrate how OHLC data is skewed from the onset. Even given the facts, that OHLC is not even considered to be "market generated info" by the industry, The retail/novice trader will always choose the path of least resistance/effort
The idea behind using market generated info is to remove your own opinion from the equation and allow you to trade the actual market, rather than trade what you believe the market should be doing. An advantage to using market generated data for your analysis is the results lend themselves well to statistical validation rather than a belief system.........just my opinion from an Auction Market Theory perspective
A day's recorded summary prices (open, high, low and close/candlesticks) can provide misleading signals: There is typically little trading volume at the highs and lows, so these prices are often not representative of market demand. Likewise, the open and close may well be near the low volume highs and/or lows and themselves may not be representative.
"market generated info" price over time conveys info
The prices most utilized by TA/Candles, the high and low, are in reality the prices least valued (traded the least) by the market. Likewise, the open, in this case, was also quickly rejected, but is used by TA/candles to form a base.
A candlestick is piss poor, non-representative data in their construction. Every day's high and low are those prices least valued by the market.
There's not enough trading (prices being used) in those areas (H&L) that creates any real S&R
Trading decisions taken on the basis of piss poor data are unlikely to prove to be good predictors of the market's future path or even provide a reasonable picture of the current market situation.
But the point is candlesticks aren't even considered to be "market generated info".
Market data in its rawest form is 2 dimensional,
But why is it more popular to view a 1 dimensional bar/candle chart for a market that reports 2 dimensional data? Why? Because it's FREE. It is cheap easily available. Its provided FREE on every chart platform, and it takes no effort from the trader.
Retail & Novice traders take the path of least resistance/effort when it comes to learning and trading the market.
Tick data (price in its rawest form) is reported as price and the time in which it occurred. In order to access raw tick data (price time data) you either have pay, create indicators, subscribe to different type of platform, work it out on a spreadsheet etc. It actually takes work/effort.
Not very attractive for those who chose the path of least resistance/effort. It is so much easier to look at a bar/candle chart which is a 1 dimensional linear display of 2 dimensional data. Because its free, takes no effort, and the work is already done for you in the form of a bar/candle chart.
90% of traders lose probably because 90% of traders use bar/candle charts for analysis. It doesn't matter to a retail trader, that you can demonstrate how OHLC data is skewed from the onset. Even given the facts, that OHLC is not even considered to be "market generated info" by the industry, The retail/novice trader will always choose the path of least resistance/effort
The idea behind using market generated info is to remove your own opinion from the equation and allow you to trade the actual market, rather than trade what you believe the market should be doing. An advantage to using market generated data for your analysis is the results lend themselves well to statistical validation rather than a belief system.........just my opinion from an Auction Market Theory perspective
Markets are not efficient, rather they are effective - Jones
- #1,828
- Nov 24, 2017 2:49am Nov 24, 2017 2:49am
- Joined May 2009 | Status: Trader | 1,879 Posts
Markets are not efficient, rather they are effective - Jones
- #1,829
- Nov 24, 2017 2:52am Nov 24, 2017 2:52am
- Joined May 2009 | Status: Trader | 1,879 Posts
Markets are not efficient, rather they are effective - Jones
- #1,831
- Edited 10:59am Nov 24, 2017 10:33am | Edited 10:59am
- Joined May 2009 | Status: Trader | 1,879 Posts
Markets are not efficient, rather they are effective - Jones
- #1,839
- Nov 24, 2017 10:58pm Nov 24, 2017 10:58pm
- | Joined Jan 2015 | Status: Trader | 3,404 Posts
I want to leave an idea. "95% of the time price will close above or below the open." this means that 95% of the time price is moving. Let me say that you are in a train looking outside of the window and the train is moving very slowly, so slow that your body can't feel the force impressed by the move. How do you know if it's moving forward or backword? Implicitly looking outside you choose a reference point (a tree, street, whatever is fixed) and then you see if you are going to that reference point or away from that. But here comes something that...
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