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  • #801
  • Edited 11:21am Oct 2, 2017 10:47am | Edited 11:21am
Quoting VEEFX
{quote} I think many will disagree with me what i am about to write about HH, HL, Highs, Lows and wicks in general.I think even RParm might as the one hour HLof daily is one of his constants. I completely ignore them. Wicks are meaningless to me in my entries. They are not "Constants" to me. Wicks especially Tip of wicks are primarily price manipulation zones. I don't go chasing after them. I don't analyse them. I don't believe trebdlines can introduce consistency. Drawing lines on charts does an irreversible amount of damage to your focal interpretation....
thanks for this : )

i did notice when trying the seneca pilot method one could either adhere to the wicks or place orders closer to or on where the line chart/closing price line is. by choosing one of these aproaches, it is merely a trade off then between which will be wins and which will be losses, with the probability being good enough and consistent enough over years either way

when multiple peaks have lined up ie triple top etc then definitely the wicks can be disregarded, although too i found it is best to pick one or the other (use wicks or not). i also noticed time and time again during times of extreme brexit level volatility that it is true like you say that extreme moves in price have a habit of leaving the tip of the tail almost directly on previous daily/weekly/monthly levels

there are no higher highs, lower lows, higher lows etc used in this method i should mention, unless the high or low creates a previous daily/weekly/monthly high or low. daily,weekly,monthly high or low are the only lines that will be traded and they should be traded every day within reason with no bias. also the opening bounce trade if there is room and it is triggered before the high/low level is

catching the wicks seemed to be the holy grail to him also. definitely a plus of trading blind into high or low lines, it will either win or lose, and the advantage is a better entry than if one awaited a candle formation etc. it has to be stressed though that when the weekly and monthly high and lows are thrown into the mix and traded with priority over daily highs and lows when they are approached 'during' your chosen trading window, it will help to keep you taking correct trades throughout the week. for example, at session open, if a weekly high or low is closer to price, it will be traded instead of the daily high or low(unless it is a great distance away at the time of session open)

previous daily highs and lows don't need to be drawn on the chart, as you only have to look at the highest or lowest wick/candle of the previous day to know where to place your trade for today. and since the monthly and weekly high and low lines are only occasionally on the chart(at the beginning of the week/month, then it is common when price moves away they will not even be visible....btw i use scale fix 1:1 so lines and candles will leave the screen out of view when not near enough

main thing is that one might have zoomed the chart out for a 10 second glance only a couple of times per week just to see where they were in relation to the monthly and weekly lines, they would not even need to look at another time frame
  • #802
  • Oct 2, 2017 10:54am Oct 2, 2017 10:54am
Quoting strongtrader
{quote} Look, it is not only about time, there are a lot of informations here coming also from Copernicus and Medici. I'd like you to make an effort to understand fully what we are talking about, because the feeling is that you are missing the point. 95% or more of the people approaching to trading fail and they all do learn the same old stuff; so, maybe, if you try to do different things you may succeed instead (i'm saying you as a general you, not referring to you). Most of the people reading threads in FF are not able to trade for a living but...
ok, the about 95% is true, but the reason you mention is wrong.

the people fail because they dont learn the basics from ground, dont know how to avoid and calculate risks, get greedy, dont know math good enough or market structure, think to much about total unimportant things for trading, switch from one system to an other and dont trade one really and learn it,....

but that people fail because they learn the old stuff again and again is simply wrong, because this old staff is all you would need to be extrem sucessfull. i accept your opinion in this, but i dont think you are correct in this. people fall more because they dont want to learn this old stuff correctly and search for short cuts to get more profit in faster way, and wonder why risk increased until a margin call.

ofcourse you need to find a trading system not many trade, to get your volume in market, but that normal. wrong teached or learned market basics (so they can see all risks or know how to avoid it), this is what seperates medium traders from many decades sucessfull professionell traders.

on the other side, there need to be about 80-95% loser to pay for the winners. if you trade some trades each day and get after 1 year only breakeven, you have often payed 30% of your balance in spread and commission and rollover (this costs you got won back, so this win someone lost). so this 30% someone else need to lose same time only to compensate this breakeven trader. when you have 20% minus with same trades amount someone else need to lose the rest 10% at least. ofcourse its not only 1 person who lose and splits to many and trade amount and frequence changes numbers to hiher or lower values ,,...... but always need many more money lost to pay the winner. this will not change, if all would be super educated or would think out a box or whatever.
its a simple rule of a market, where money only changes from one to another and fees are for this. same like in poker.
  • #803
  • Oct 2, 2017 11:07am Oct 2, 2017 11:07am
Quoting dukas_trader
{quote} ok, the about 95% is true, but the reason you mention is wrong. the people fail because they dont learn the basics from ground, dont know how to avoid and calculate risks, get greedy, dont know math good enough or market structure, think to much about total unimportant things for trading, switch from one system to an other and dont trade one really and learn it,.... but that people fail because they learn the old stuff again and again is simply wrong, because this old staff is all you would need to be extrem sucessfull. i accept your opinion...
Well, that's true; they do not want to work but expect things falling over them from the sky....well those ones deserve nothing of course.
But others are just confused because they do not have the right mindset.
Said that there are many ways to make trading, personally i do not understand a dime about maths but I have a strong logic thinking, so I made it coming from this path and this is what I can talk about.
Maybe you have found a different way, whatever works with you is ok till it works.
Nevertheless, mindset is mandatory, there is no way to be profitable if you do not have a strong psychology trading oriented
  • #804
  • Oct 2, 2017 11:28am Oct 2, 2017 11:28am
Quoting strongtrader
{quote} Well, that's true; they do not want to work but expect things falling over them from the sky....well those ones deserve nothing of course. But others are just confused because they do not have the right mindset. Said that there are many ways to make trading, personally i do not understand a dime about maths but I have a strong logic thinking, so I made it coming from this path and this is what I can talk about. Maybe you have found a different way, whatever works with you is ok till it works. Nevertheless, mindset is mandatory, there is...
true, only way without mindset is trading by expert advisor only and only risk what is in your feel good area, so no fear is in the trades.
  • #805
  • Oct 2, 2017 12:30pm Oct 2, 2017 12:30pm
Quoting dukas_trader
{quote} true, only way without mindset is trading by expert advisor only and only risk what is in your feel good area, so no fear is in the trades.
No, without mindset only way is investing your time to build your mindset, or do esle.
  • #806
  • Oct 2, 2017 1:02pm Oct 2, 2017 1:02pm
"But others are just confused because they do not have the right mindset."

That's me, everything is right under my nose, but I can't "see" yet.

But I truly believe that I will make it.


****

I suggest everyone to read and think about posts these guys make. Full of gems!

Good luck.
  • #807
  • Oct 2, 2017 1:04pm Oct 2, 2017 1:04pm
This is the link to a beautiful film from which there is a lot to learn about mindset.....enjoy!
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  • #808
  • Edited 1:43pm Oct 2, 2017 1:07pm | Edited 1:43pm
Trying to put this discussion in context. I'd say that most aspiring traders spend an inordinate amount of time studying technical indicators and strategies in search of trading success, while many of the fundamental questions about the markets and trading remain largely ignored.

Contrary to popular belief, the foundations of trading success are philosophical and psychological in nature rather than technical. With the proper philosophical underpinnings the choice/development of a trading strategy becomes a relatively easy task, but without proper psychological preparation the trading of that strategy is fraught with danger.

So the exploration of philosophical issues is very relevant. One's trading activities have to gel at the deepest level of one's being. As trading psychologist Brett Steenbarger says:

This is the great weakness of most efforts at 'trader education'. Such education consists of isolated Website posts, magazine articles, and conference presentations. Even books in the field fail to build a conceptual foundation for traders to help them understand what to trade and why. And, of course, few educational efforts help traders train their 'eye' to see the patterns from their conceptual integrations. That, in trading as in chess and medicine, is a process that takes years of devoted effort.

How does one achieve such "conceptual integrations"? Operating metaphors are sometimes used to that end. Operating metaphor is a term coined by Charles Faulkner of Market Wizards fame. Here is an excerpt from Jack Schwager's The New Market Wizards:

Jack Schwager:
Anything to add regarding traits that differentiate winning from losing traders?

Charles Faulkner:
A final critical characteristic distinguishing winning traders from losing traders relates to what I've termed "operating metaphors." An operating metaphor determines how we view the world, and it shapes our beliefs, actions, and life-styles. Some of the metaphors used by traders to describe the market are a woman, war, and a game, to name a few of the more common ones. As an example of the game or puzzle-solving metaphors, Richard Dennis says, "It's like playing a hundred chess games at once." Pete Steidlmayer says he's "solving the markets." Paul Tudor Jones sums it up with, "It's a game, and money is a way to keep score." Each operating metaphor will lead a trader's brain to a different set of beliefs and a different approach to the markets, with some being more effective than others.

Contrast the metaphors I just cited with some of the operating metaphors I've typically heard around the trading floor. "I got torn up today," makes the market into a beast of prey. "We took a hit" reflects thinking that the market is a war and the speaker a wounded participant. Which metaphor will result in your feeling more objective about the market--playing a game, even a high-stakes game, or defending yourself from an attacking wild animal? The answer is obvious. The difference is in what is suggested by the metaphor. In the game, there are winners and losers, but your survival isn't at stake, as it is with being attacked by a wild animal. You may respond brilliantly to save yourself from the beast, but that metaphor doesn't encourage you to learn and practice long-term strategies and tactics the way a game does. Having an operating metaphor appropriate to your trading style is fundamental to success.

And that's the case with all concepts - they are fossilised metaphors. So rather than going into the details of various physical theories, perhaps it's more worthwhile to ask "What does it mean to me, metaphorically?"
  • #809
  • Oct 2, 2017 1:12pm Oct 2, 2017 1:12pm
Quoting strongtrader
{quote} No, without mindset only way is investing your time to build your mindset, or do esle.
why you need a mindset when you dont trade and let an expert advisor trade?
when you are good in math and you can believe your results you also need no mindset training, because good math is implementing your mindset automatic, when you can hold what you calculated. if you cant hold simple reduce your trading amount until you can, its so easy.

mindset setting is only good when you dont know math good and dont know market structure or trading basics good or you have to high trading amount. this can get big problems what you can reduce with good mindset.

but with good math or robot trading this should not play a rule, if it plays a rule ,something is complete wrong done. or what reason can be, that mindset plays a rule in expert advisor trading what not is related with to high trading amount?

ofcourse best is knowing trading from basic ground and by math, then results are extrem good and risk very low. but even without it can be possible, but risky.
  • #810
  • Oct 2, 2017 1:25pm Oct 2, 2017 1:25pm
Quoting dukas_trader
{quote} why you need a mindset when you dont trade and let an expert advisor trade? when you are good in math and you can believe your results you also need no mindset training, because good math is implementing your mindset automatic, when you can hold what you calculated. if you cant hold simple reduce your trading amount until you can, its so easy. mindset setting is only good when you dont know math good and dont know market structure or trading basics good or you have to high trading amount. this can get big problems what you can reduce with...
Amazingly, but to be expected by now, you get it wrong in every way.

Algo trading doesn't take away the psychological element at all - it only moves it to a different set of decisions and behaviours.

Neither does maths help against mindset issues.

And I say that against a background of personal relationships with several institutional algo-traders in the City of London. And I know them because I worked with them.
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  • #811
  • Oct 2, 2017 1:43pm Oct 2, 2017 1:43pm
Quoting dukas_trader
{quote} why you need a mindset when you dont trade and let an expert advisor trade? when you are good in math and you can believe your results you also need no mindset training, because good math is implementing your mindset automatic, when you can hold what you calculated. if you cant hold simple reduce your trading amount until you can, its so easy. mindset setting is only good when you dont know math good and dont know market structure or trading basics good or you have to high trading amount. this can get big problems what you can reduce with...
and how do you manage your amazing EA if you do not know what are you doing?!
And again, how can you understand market without a proper mindset?!
How many EAs do you know that work?

The math we know currently is not enough to assess market functions in a reliable way; i know some very clever professional traders, none of them trades with maths: they all have a small set of simple rules and a strong understanding about how market works that belongs from a strong mindset.

I would ask you to describe which is the structure of market, in your opinion
  • #812
  • Oct 2, 2017 1:50pm Oct 2, 2017 1:50pm
Quoting medici
{quote} Amazingly, but to be expected by now, you get it wrong in every way. Algo trading doesn't take away the psychological element at all - it only moves it to a different set of decisions and behaviours. Neither does maths help against mindset issues. And I say that against a background of personal relationships with several institutional algo-traders in the City of London. And I know them because I worked with them. {image}
really?

i worked as coach in banks for teaching trading groups. what institition was this you speak about in london? sounds not what we teached, but there was many methods ofcourse.

when math was established correct near noone failed with mindset. only possibility was someone dont trusted in his own math results, but this was not really often.

for expert programming and using it was even much more easy , because work was more controlling then anything else. we speak about full aotomated systems, that can run each second.

but ofcourse we dont had the extrem people coached, there was so many selection method before someone came into the course, so maybe the extrem crazy mindset problem people was not there.

have you really had met any algo trader with mindset problem, because its then wrong algo or wrong trading amount (people with wrong algos i met many too)? looks different people have different people met in our lifes.
  • #813
  • Oct 2, 2017 1:53pm Oct 2, 2017 1:53pm
Quoting dukas_trader
{quote} really? i worked as coach in banks for teaching trading groups. what institition was this you speak about in london? sounds not what we teached, but there was many methods ofcourse. when math was established correct near noone failed with mindset. only possibility was someone dont trusted in his own math results, but this was not really often. for expert programming and using it was even much more easy , because work was more controlling then anything else. we speak about full aotomated systems, that can run each second. but ofcourse we...
Keep at it, mate You're too entertaining to be put on my ignore list
  • #814
  • Oct 2, 2017 2:05pm Oct 2, 2017 2:05pm
Quoting strongtrader
{quote}personally i do not understand a dime about maths but I have a strong logic thinking
You bring up a very valid point here, in fact it will inevitably be overlooked. You know why? Because it isnt a trading system with rules.
Yet it is a key ingredient to progess but it takes a sh#t load of effort, humbleness and (yes) time.

There are actually 2 very powerful ingredients required for profesional trading, they are mutually connected and interwined.
One without the other will inevitably suffer and it is the pinnacle between a pro and a 'dabbler'.

In fact, these ingredients are not just for trading, they ARE the best methods to extract the most from all aspects of life:

1) A highly inquisitive mind - that can break down, mold, combine, re-desing, and extract the most from a simple idea - totally unbiased.
2) A very well structured and efficient process of elimination (as CP simply put it, a sherlock holmes/detective/lawyer like process).

But there is a problem. The mind is lazy and very undisciplined. And without awareness and discipline, nothing will ever change.
It is not a fancy topic nor one that intrigues people with teasers, yet it is most often overlooked by the flashing candlestick lights.


Trading is not an art -> it is numbers, period: Business 101 -> How do you consistently make money?

1) Increase your gains.
2) Reduce your costs.
3) Both.

You want to see the 'art' of business? go watch marcus lemonis "the profit".
You want to see an 'inquisitive-disciplined mind'? go watch "Manhunt: Unabomber".

The "art" is in the mind of the individual; how to compile, extract, merge, re-desing that which the numbers are telling you, how to blend information from different fields, how to reconstruct unbeknowingly random subjects and extracting the common denominators, etc...Simply put; "think and act different".

But all this is futile if 'self' is not aware of the minds weaknesses/distractions/illusions, keeping you running round in circles. Why?

Because the mind is lazy and undisciplined.

Now this does not mean you must become a quant god either, as many a time a good quant will still fall trap to his/her own biases, totally unaware.

You cannot change your environment if you do not improve your self.
You cannot improve your R&D if you do not improve your self.
You cannot become an athlete if you do not improve your self.
You cannot become a pro trader with a lazy mind.

You will never discover your true potential if you do not put your self to the test. ever heard the saying "ignorance is bliss"?

How many actually appreciate and understand the power of efficiency? Most if not all great inventions answer one thing: How can x be done more efficiently?

The same applies to your trading, being efficient and systematic with your R&D is crucial (no pun!) to make progress. This balancing act will always be tilted not by what a person researches, but by how it is researched -> the devil is in the details and you will never see this until you develop and re-mold the way you look at and perceive your surroundings.

The pinnacle of professional trading and life in general, is that of a sharp, inquisite and aware mind.
Ignore this you miss the train. Embrace it and you can do great feats in life, for self is nothing more than raw potential.

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  • #815
  • Oct 2, 2017 2:08pm Oct 2, 2017 2:08pm
Quoting medici
Trying to put this discussion in context. I'd say that most aspiring traders spend an inordinate amount of time studying technical indicators and strategies in search of trading success, while many of the fundamental questions about the markets and trading remain largely ignored. Contrary to popular belief, the foundations of trading success are philosophical and psychological in nature rather than technical. With the proper philosophical underpinnings the choice/development of a trading strategy becomes a relatively easy task, but without proper...
That's it, finally!! your synthesys is perfect.
Steenbarger and all the other ones you quoted are milestones that should be part of the background of anytrader: I wonder if dukas has ever read at least one of them.
For those who are really willing to grow and become a trader these readings are mandatory.
Those who already have their strong beliefs and their unique concern is to make them prevail over the rest of the world, will end their life in the field of "good for nothing", not only with trading but with their whole life.

There is no wrong and no right, but only infinite possibilities, and this is true in any field. If you cannot conceive this simple concept your mind is out of order.
The good news is that you can fix it, the bad one is that won't you going to fix it, the best thing you can do is to recite the role of the great pretender for the rest of your life.

ADVICE FOR PRETENDERS: PLEASE STAY FAR AWAY FROM ME
  • #816
  • Oct 2, 2017 2:11pm Oct 2, 2017 2:11pm
Quoting strongtrader
{quote} and how do you manage your amazing EA if you do not know what are you doing?! And again, how can you understand market without a proper mindset?! How many EAs do you know that work? The math we know currently is not enough to assess market functions in a reliable way; i know some very clever professional traders, none of them trades with maths: they all have a small set of simple rules and a strong understanding about how market works that belongs from a strong mindset. I would ask you to describe which is the structure of market, in your...
i know only people who trade pure by math and nothing more, all is calculated. but i learned it this way, so never changed what worked without any problems.

from my expert around 75 work, but i trade only around 50 most of the time, because working is not enough, you need a good win/drawdown ratio to compensate backtest result with real results (bcause of wrong quote, impossible to get filled all trading amount, slippage,...). thats why i only trade what has 10/1 win/drawdown ratio to have enough security space between all.

how many experts work for people, how should i know, i dont interest for other experts, if i dont program by my own i would not trust any expert/algo program. one thing not programmed correctly or not thought about or to less backups inside for any possibility the risk would be extrem.
most of the time you dont habe the time to program all your ideas, because when you trade you have in 2 weeks about 3 new ideas what you write down and will true backtest later, or program when backtest was good enough.

what is your question about structure of market exactly? there are many basics about buyers and sellers finding the price.
  • #817
  • Oct 2, 2017 2:17pm Oct 2, 2017 2:17pm
[quote=Pipalicious;10349295]{quote} You bring up a very valid point here, in fact it will inevitably be overlooked. You know why? Because it isnt a trading system with rules. Yet it is a key ingredient to progess but it takes a sh#t load of effort, humbleness and (yes) time.........

SACRED WORDS!
  • #818
  • Oct 2, 2017 2:19pm Oct 2, 2017 2:19pm
You guys are so funny to read. This thread should be a book. So mich Drama and some knowledge.

Great
Everyday better.
  • #819
  • Oct 2, 2017 2:23pm Oct 2, 2017 2:23pm
Quoting dukas_trader
{quote} i know only people who trade pure by math and nothing more, all is calculated. but i learned it this way, so never changed what worked without any problems. from my expert around 75 work, but i trade only around 50 most of the time, because working is not enough, you need a good win/drawdown ratio to compensate backtest result with real results (bcause of wrong quote, impossible to get filled all trading amount, slippage,...). thats why i only trade what has 10/1 win/drawdown ratio to have enough security space between all. how many experts...
No...no...no.....don't turn my question to me
Don't make the jocker with me, answer to my question.
  • #820
  • Oct 2, 2017 2:31pm Oct 2, 2017 2:31pm
Quoting medici
{quote} Keep at it, mate You're too entertaining to be put on my ignore list
i dont know what to tell you, you dont check many things. you met people who are not possible to set mindset with god math and are same time algotraders whats pure math??? sorry, but thats bullshit (some facts are not possible , or maybe they are just rookies, maybe). they did not like to tell you truth, they dont like to speak with your or whatever reason...... its impossible very good algo traders have problems with mindset when math was perfect, math will create same time your mindset, thats the magic in math. maybe noone teached it to you correct or you did not like to learn from the ground, i dont know whats the problem with you , but often you write this complete wrong things.

maybe its some level to high for you, but dont changes this truth. math and market basic knowledge will set your mindset automatic, if you dont have any other problems, like drugs, illness, live problems, character problems,... . only because it did not work for you, dont tell anything. because knoone knows if you are educated in math and market basics good enough.
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