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Attachments: Trend Trading
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Trend Trading

Quoting giraffze
{quote} Hi gen, I suggust you start a thread and make some live calls which 60% and 2:1 , only high quality calls fits your request are approved there, at some time or other , some real traders will appear there as you want. Best regard.
Nice idea and in fact I had my pre EU trade and PA analysis posted on Tweeter recently when times and conditions allowed. My energy and health level are not in the optimal conditions Plus I don't really have to do all that but just to fill in the boredom and to amuse myself and take an occasion dig at those 'guru' traders.
Anyway happy trading to you.

Cheers
Quoting Graviton
{quote} Well, I make a terrible signals provider. Usually if I have 3 good trades and one bad one, I'll post the bad one. As far as spreads, they are generally in proportion to the size of the trade. So the actual spread cost of 1 single lot trade is roughly the same as 2 half lot trades. Anyways, here's a 4 trade stack with stops adjusted so the last 2 (on top) will break even if the trade reverses, yielding a nice fat wad of pips off the first two trades in the stack that are on bottom. There is no risk in the trade and a reversal still yields...
Good reply and in my humble opinion it would be a great help if you could illustrate your 'stacked' strategy on real time. Ofc as usual I don't think you would but that's ok with me for whatever the reasons. Hehe

Cheers and hope your continuing successful trades.
Quoting genghistar
{quote} Good reply and in my humble opinion it would be a great help if you could illustrate your 'stacked' strategy on real time. Ofc as usual I don't think you would but that's ok with me for whatever the reasons. Hehe Cheers and hope your continuing successful trades.
Thanks Genghistar. All the charts I posted for the Cad/Jpy trade were real time. I suppose I should have made that more clear. I'll post a current one for an update right now. Warning, this is real time.:
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: 5 CadJpy.PNG Size: 54 KB


Edit: If you are the suspicious type, you can compare the time stamp of the posts with the history of the pair on your own charts. You'll see the charts are posted within a few minutes of real time. That's just as fast as my old creaky fingers will type. Cheers! - G
Quoting Graviton
{quote} Thanks Genghistar. All the charts I posted for the Cad/Jpy trade were real time. I suppose I should have made that more clear. I'll post a current one for an update right now. Warning, this is real time.:{image} Edit: If you are the suspicious type, you can compare the time stamp of the posts with the history of the pair on your own charts. You'll see the charts are posted within a few minutes of real time. That's just as fast as my old creaky fingers will type. Cheers! - G
Nice trade and where are the bottom two trades?
Quoting genghistar
{quote} Good reply and in my humble opinion it would be a great help if you could illustrate your 'stacked' strategy on real time. Ofc as usual I don't think you would but that's ok with me for whatever the reasons. Hehe Cheers and hope your continuing successful trades.
I see Graviton has replied - but I have my own response to this.

When I read your comment, I felt quite irritated. Sorry, but what the does "...as usual I don't think you would but that ok with me for whatever the reasons. Hehe..." mean? It seems as though you can't "get" what's being said? Or that you somehow don't believe it's as simple as opening and then...LEAVING that trade open for a while.

Just open and trade and leave it open. That's it. Then open another trade AGAIN, at a slightly higher price (if buying in an up trend). Again, hold it and leaving it open. Now there are...shockingly...TWO trades open.

It's really, really, really simple. Don't try to twist this somehow into something strange. It doesn't need to be "illustrated on real time".*


Examples (although you'll just ignore this and say I'm making it up or something):
I still have a trade I'm sitting on from 20/8/2018 in EJ up 662 pips, bought at 126.426. I can dump that thing any time I want. I also have others still open from the 18th and 20th (Sep.), up 175 and 72 pips. I ended up closing earlier ones that were part of my 'stack', opened 24/08 and 30/08, for 235 and 184 pips respectively.

Realise that I held one or two of my later trades at a loss for a little while, but I really didn't care as I had some 'insurance' of profit potential in the open trades below them. You must have some reasonable belief/faith/trust in your trading system to not panic and close open trades in a rush (and leave losses open) because you're frightened of losing those potential, profitable pips. They're there as insurance. Sometimes you do want to bank the pips, but you want to do it in a positive 'flow', when you add a new trade and then close another one to limit exposure and build that capital.



* [ Go ahead and illustrate it yourself. Demo or Real, I really don't care which one. See a signal. Get into a trade (small trade size) and...leave it open. If it gains pips...LEAVE IT. If it goes negative at some point (-10 to -50, again I don't care) take it off, wait a bar or two and look for another signal. On a decent signal, if you're trading with the general trend, it really should start to move and gain pips. ]
Quoting Nefser
{quote} I see Graviton has replied - but I have my own response to this. When I read your comment, I felt quite irritated. Sorry, but what the does "...as usual I don't think you would but that ok with me for whatever the reasons. Hehe..." mean? It seems as though you can't "get" what's being said? Or that you somehow don't believe it's as simple as opening and then...LEAVING that trade open for a while. Just open and trade and leave it open. That's it. Then open another trade AGAIN, at a slightly higher price (if buying in an up trend). Again,...
Yes I understand most will be irritated but I remain unirritated especially if I am pulling it pips at the rates you just claimed to do. It will be really onusual if you are irritated even if you are pulling in good pips. Hehe

Cheers.
Ok. Here are more examples:

GU. I have a trade I added on 14th @ 1.31171, so now around 111 pips. I have another I put on the 20th @1.32200 showing 8 pips. This top trade is now cycling between profit and loss. It's a 'safe' trade, in that I have that 100+ pips from the lower trade and I also have all my EJ's waiting in the wings with profits.

So, I can let this trade stay open even IF it drops to -10, -20, etc. I mainly trade a single pair, but had thought of diversifying (to be discussed another time), so also bought some GU. Thus, seeing as I am not as interested in this pair, I may just close it off. Why? To minimise the risk of losing the profits if GU is looking stalled or dropping back.

Secondly, EJ is looking strong and I have my top trade sitting at 60-70 pips, so in another 30+ pips I'll want to add to that stack. Rather than over trade too much, it will mean I'd have to close one of my lower EJ trades, or drop out of my GU pair. The latter is my preference.

Now, seeing that GU has bumped back up to where the top trade of it is back in profit (12-13 pips), I'll have to wait and see a bit more.
Attached Image
Quoting Nefser
Ok. Here are more examples: GU. I have a trade I added on 14th @ 1.31171, so now around 111 pips. I have another I put on the 20th @1.32200 showing 8 pips. This top trade is now cycling between profit and loss. It's a 'safe' trade, in that I have that 100+ pips from the lower trade and I also have all my EJ's waiting in the wings with profits. So, I can let this trade stay open even IF it drops to -10, -20, etc. I mainly trade a single pair, but had thought of diversifying (to be discussed another time), so also bought some GU. Thus, seeing as I...
I appreciate your trade insight and from what you describe it seems you really know your stuff and I can only wish you will continue to pull in those green pippies. Wish you continuing success and don't forget to enjoy in your success too.

Cheers.
Quoting genghistar
{quote} I appreciate your trade insight and from what you describe it seems you really know your stuff and I can only wish you will continue to pull in those green pippies. Wish you continuing success and don't forget to enjoy in your success too. Cheers.
No. Please don't misunderstand. I don't really know my stuff as being some sort of guru or anything. I promise! Just get into a trade and let it run. I've mentioned this in plenty of other threads. Get a signal, open a trade and leave it open. Do NOT set a TP! <-- crucial

You want to let the trade breathe and run. Let it move along with the trend (if the trend exists or still exists if seen).


Now, what we've been discussing earlier is the difficultly of deciding when to get out of a trade. As you may have noticed, the top end of GU and EJ have dropped back, so now I am -20 pips lower on all my EJ trades (although all still well in profit) and -20 on GU. Top GU is -5 and lower one is 95 pips.

So, tell me what to do about GU. What would you do? When should I close that GU stack off?
- Do I close the low, profitable and hope the upper one (now -9 pips as I type) turns around?
- Close just the top one for a loss (now -11 pips)
- Close them both?

Hurry, I'm losing PIPS!!! :-)

(It's now -12 as I save this message)


Edit: I'm not actually panicking. This was just for illustration. :-)

I'll probably drop both GU if the top one goes down to -20, which will mean about 60 pips overall. I have NOT set an SL on the upper trade (as they can get picked off) and I don't like a quick bounce down to my SL and then bounce up again. When I mean -20, I mean it floats around -20, -22, -25, -23, -25, -26, -22...

At that point I'm tired of it, so close it off, take the pips and move on. It could drop suddenly to -60, who knows. Then I close them both for a loss and mark it up to price fluctuations. I don't mind, as it's just the way it goes and I'll grab more pips in my plan overall.
Quoting Nefser
{quote} No. Please don't misunderstand. I don't really know my stuff as being some sort of guru or anything. I promise! Just get into a trade and let it run. I've mentioned this in plenty of other threads. Get a signal, open a trade and leave it open. Do NOT set a TP! <-- crucial You want to let the trade breathe and run. Let it move along with the trend (if the trend exists or still exists if seen). Now, what we've been discussing earlier is the difficultly of deciding when to get out of a trade. As you may have noticed, the top end of GU and EJ...
I am not doing GU but based on my take it is in intra-day bull territory and as long as 13090 is not breached with 13160 holding it down it should continue to climb north.Currently it is doing the retracement thingy.

Yea maybe u r right but I still wish you the best.

Cheers and out.
Quoting genghistar
{quote} I am not doing GU but based on my take it is in intra-day bull territory and as long as 13090 is not breached with 13160 holding it down it should continue to climb north.Currently it is doing the retracement thingy.
I'll mention that I don't like diversification really, as if I like both EJ and EA and add both trades, I'm either both buying and selling Eur, which seems a bit counterintuitive (or in plain terms - just silly), or I'm possibly buying or selling TWICE as much Eur. Hmm. Why take more risk in Eur?

So, as I'm biased toward EJ (due to my general assessment of a decent level of pip movement over the last week or so, compared to other pairs) and thus I won't trade any other Eur or Jpy pairs. So, GU seemed a good pair to trade, as it doesn't directly become counter to either E or J.

I see E and G as an associated set, U/C obviously and A/N. J is out on its own. Therefore, it doesn't leave a lot of options for me. If I decided GJ had a better trading range, I could just close all my EJ and GU, then trade GJ. If so, my obvious alternate pair would be EU.

Otherwise, because I stack trades, I tend not to trade many other pairs, as my (risk limited) margin for trades is tied up in my main pair (possibly 2, 3, 4 trades as a stack) and thus diversifying doesn't bring much. Either my main pair is performing or its not. If not, I should close all the trades and look for another pair that has a good signal (that may become a trend) or a good signal and is already trending.


I also don't worry about Support or Resistance lines or whether this move is a strong bull move or not. I just don't know.

I let the actual results of the price movement dictate what to do about my trades. If the trades are in pips, I leave them open. When it stalls or moves back, I will watch. If it pulls back too much I may have to close them off and wait again.

Trading is overthought almost as much as people over trade.
Quoting Nefser
... So, tell me what to do about GU. What would you do? When should I close that GU stack off?
As an update, here is what GU looks like now:
Attached Image

I'm down around -25 pips on the top GU trade and the equivalent on the lower GU (~ +77 pips). I can see on the 15m TF that it dipped lower, but has moved up again. I have another 25 pips of leeway to BE on the two trades and I can see the ghost of the 1hr TF for the Ichimoku indicator on my chart.

So, I'd consider a move to the top of the 1hr cloud potential S/R (but I really don't like giving S/R too much weight in my decisions), so it's really as much about the risk related to the two trades as a stacked package as to whether I bail now or once it gets near or to BE. Getting out at 40 pips over 3 days is pretty poor results, so again, given my potential profit on all my trades (closed and open), risking that last 40 pips isn't a big deal. Therefore, I'll probably let it ride to either retract and continue later today/next week (after people are done taking profits on Friday for the GU move yesterday) or end up closing it off sometime today.


P.S. - I love having layered Ichimoku. You can see it as the lower, faded shadow to lower-right in this screenshot. I keep one of the current timeframe at 60% transparency and then the next higher TF at 80% and the one above that at 95%. It gives a great way to see the price related to different TF when expanded full screen.


EDIT: Apologies for going slightly off-topic in relation to this thread. However it does lead into the discussions of exiting out of trends and reviewing retracements/reversals (albeit loosely). ;-)
Quoting Nefser
{quote} ...EDIT: Apologies for going slightly off-topic in relation to this thread. However it does lead into the discussions of exiting out of trends and reviewing retracements/reversals (albeit loosely). ;-)
No problem. As long as we are discussing trend trading, we are on target. Quite a few good kernels of thought contained in your post. I'm still digesting it all, but interested in your opinions on diversification. I'm sure there are others lurking here who have opinions on diversification. I'm of two minds on it myself. Early in the process I think it helps me get into the right trade. Later it can spread capital and attention too thin. Really, as one moves on in the process, it becomes obvious which trades are producers and which are also rans. - G
Quoting Graviton
{quote} Hi there. No, there is no hedging involved. It is a pyramiding strategy. There is much written on the net about pyramiding trades. The important point is to always work towards reducing risk while executing such a strategy. - G
Got it now; yes; it’s such a popular trading system! Thank you very much for reply.
Great discussions on trend trading. I took most of my profits in the wee hours yesterday. Maybe I was a little quick on the trigger, but my system rules said take the pips and run and it was not a good time to break the rules. One time to break the rules is when something very drastic has occurred, like a war breaks out or something like that.

Really, this is very simple but not at all easy. It's like me trying to lose weight on my diet. It's simple, don't eat and you lose weight. But it's not easy. Some have requested that I reveal my system so they can trade along with me, at least in demo, so after much consideration I will do that with the warning that this probably wont work for very many, since it's designed for my personal trading style.

In my own humble opinion, the first step, Find a trend to trade, probably gets way more attention than it deserves. I've found that a simple moving average crossover works as well as almost anything for finding a trend. The favorites used by most traders a 50X100 cross or a 50X200 cross will identify most good tradeable trends. Right now I'm using the 50X200 cross over because I like it's name, the death cross or the golden cross. That's subject to change. If one requires the crossovers occur on multiple timeframes, like the H1 and H4 and Daily, it can give a little extra confidence that this is really a trend. Add in the weekly crossover if you like longer trades or the 15 minute if you like shorter term trades, but it wont make that much difference. One can also visually confirm that if it's an up trend it's making a series of higher highs and higher lows, also a common definition of a trend, but again, it probably wont make much difference. Or, we could just flip a coin, but that's probably not gonna work. I don't know, I haven't tried it. One could also just look at a bare chart and see possible trends (always in hindsight), but I need a repeatable method to use. So, that's my method. VERY simple. I don't question it because I know that entries don't really make that much difference. All the money is really made or lost on the exits.

I enter every trade that looks like it might be a good long term trend. Half of those I wind up exiting for as small a loss as possible when they take off in the wrong direction. So that's my first exit rule. Good trades make money and bad trades lose money. If it makes money I stay in it and if it's losing money I want to exit with as small a loss as possible. I always keep those failed trade losses very small, about 45 pips or less. If the trade makes money, my whole system is pretty much mechanical after that, pyramiding like I've described here before.

The only discretionary exception is I will always take profits off everything (all trades and positions) if my total portfolio profit exceeds a particular pre-determined amount that I consider excessive. That amount is determined from experience (big profits that I have let slip away). I can give you my formula for that, or you can workout your own. Mine might not work for you since it's tuned to my system and the way I trade it. Mine is based on the base size of my trade and the factor is derived from my experience with trading my system. It's total portfolio profit = base trade size X 6000 So, if my base trade size is 0.5 standard lots, then it's 0.5 X 6000 = $3000 TP. or if my base trade size is 0.1 standard lots, then 0.1 X 6000 = $600 TP, etc. If my total portfolio profit passes that number I am looking to take profit. There's another rule. I can let total portfolio profit run past that number as far as I like, but if profit passes it and comes back to it I must take profit. Also, I must take profit on all if I need to leave the screen for more than just a few minutes and profit is above that calculated number (that forced an exit last night when I was very very sleepy).

So that's my entire system described in my posts on this thread. I'm not claiming it will work for anyone but me. In fact, it is so attuned to my style of trading, I'd be rather surprised if it worked for anyone else but me. But it brings up some points. Like cutting losses short, letting profits run (and for me adding to them with pyramiding), having hard and fast trading rules and defining when to break those rules. Also there are money management rules, like I never put on a trade risking than 0.5 % of my account balance and I never trade total more than 50% of my available margin, ect. I'll answer any questions but I'd advise any newbies to not try to copy my system, but rather devise your own making sure all the important points are covered. If your system doesn't have hard and fast rules like money management and when to cut losses short and when to let profits run, it might need some more development. Best success. - G
Graviton - Interesting that you refer to pips when considering when to get out of losing trades, but not in regards to closing profitable ones. For that, you consider the overall trade portfolio (presumably you're talking about all pairs, not just a particular stack in one pair). I'd never thought about it like that.

For me, it's all about the pips, as I feel that when I deal with larger trades, the pressure to take a £10 profit vs a $1,000 profit for a trade (or set of trades) is very, very different. Therefore, I've tried to ensure I only worry about a selection of pips.

Sadly, I was busy when the news (oh, the joys of fundamentals twisting the market around) hit and GU took a dive. In any case, even if I have to clear off those trades (which I decided to wait till Monday to see if the buyers are interested in pushing it back upwards or if there is enough of a new direction downwards (even if just the short term) to force me to clean up my sheet. At least the clean out will only force me to bump up my profit SL on my big EJ trade, hence potentially forcing to take it off at some profit plus covering any trade 'debts' I've accrued.

I don't think you need any caveats about your trading system or MM, as it's not too drastic nor too complicated for someone to understand. It's usually whether someone else really wants to follow a process at all is probably more of the issue.

Can you explain why you feel the need to close the trades down when you get a portfolio profit 'boost' that then pulls back to your profit limit? So, if your limit was 600 and you get to 622 briefly before it fades back...you'll actually shut down your trade stack at that point? Unless I'm misunderstanding you and it's only at the end of your trading session that you closed any (but only some) of your trades for a profit? To restate it - You don't leave a profit-heavy set of trades overnight, but you'll close it down (or close down X % of it) until you are safely profit-weak and can earn your needed rest, having earned your trading profits.

Maybe a good plan I could (should?) follow. I've probably thrown back more than the profits I've taken over the years, so really any process like this will potentially build my capital quicker.
Quoting Nefser
Graviton - Interesting that you refer to pips when considering when to get out of losing trades, but not in regards to closing profitable ones. For that, you consider the overall trade portfolio (presumably you're talking about all pairs, not just a particular stack in one pair). I'd never thought about it like that. For me, it's all about the pips, as I feel that when I deal with larger trades, the pressure to take a £10 profit vs a $1,000 profit for a trade (or set of trades) is very, very different. Therefore, I've tried to ensure I only worry...
Oh, good observations. Yes, my overall portfolio profit target is based on cash. The reason might be is that I derived it from reviewing past trading where once a month or so, I'd give back a very large floating profit when the market turns. When I looked at that total giveback, it ran as much as 10% of my portfolio value per month. So, to stop that profit bleed, I implemented my excessive profits rule. You could just as well create your own rule based on pips rather than cash. It's easy enough. Just keep track of profits given back in market turns. Most of those are smaller inevitable drawdowns that must be tolerated to obtain the very large rewards to risk ratios we seek via pyramiding. But you will see one or two huge drawdowns per month caused by market turns that cost you lots of cash, or pips. You can greatly improve your trading if you can capture most of those pips. So, devise a rule that will force you to take an excessive profit that matches your trading. Just like we trade with emergency stops that we would rather not hit, this is emergency portfolio profit protection. Yes, it's for all pairs and all trades. Essentially I go flat when the rule is triggered. I found I could recover about 60% of those lost profits with my rule. Don't make it so tight that it disturbs your regular trading. It probably shouldn't trigger more than once a month, twice at most. Some dead months you wont hit it at all. Best of all, it gives you a rule to follow and for me that takes all the stress out.

Yes, the rule has some discretion to it. If I briefly move past a 600 TPP (Target Portfolio Profit) and go to 622 and quickly fall back to 600, I might not exit right on the dot. I will look at price action. If It looks like it might turn around, I may give it to 580. If it looks weak, I'll take the 600 exit. I'm certainly not willing to let it fall to 550. I don't allow that much discretion.

Sleep can sometimes be an unwelcome interruption. Before sleep I calculate my worst case exposure. If every trade I have completely reverses, how much am I willing to give up? Then I will either adjust stops or outright take profits or both to adjust my potential loss to an acceptable amount, which about half the time I experience. Initially I would risk more as I slept, but over the years I've come to the conclusion that a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush and I now risk less and less overnight. Of course, most nights I'm not so far ahead that it presents a problem. When I am that far ahead on floating profits at bedtime, say about 6% or more of account balance in floating profits plus stop risk, I'll seek to reduce that to a more comfortable risk, like half that amount or less. Often I'll have two similar trades running, like EJ and UJ and one will be performing much better than the other, so it's an easy decision, cash in the worst of the two.

Now if I have a 200 pip profit floating on the base of a stack but the sl is 150 pips above the entry, then the exposure is really only 50 pips for that trade. Now if I have three trades stacked up higher and each of those also have a 50 pip risk for 200 at risk total, then I might be wise to take off some pips. Since I'm in the USA I'm subject to the FIFO rule, so I'm forced to take off the 200 base of the stack. That's ok, that reduces my decisions. I usually keep my stops pretty well adjusted, but if I find one that is wider than needed, I can tighten it up as well to reduce risk. My advice, always assume the worst can happen, because often it will. Always use all your skills to trade to reduce risk. I love these good questions and discussion. I hope to see more. Best success. - G
Ahh, didn't think about FIFO forcing your hand when reducing a stack. In the past, I used to always want to take the top end off (usually a top trade that had gone negative) and I could clear the top two trades (the 2nd in a moderate profit, just enough to cover the top one). I think if you're stacking, you have to assume you're in a trend (otherwise you wouldn't spend time building it in the first place) and therefore closing a lower trade vs a higher one shouldn't matter.

I guess the pace of stacking is also a factor, as I had previously tried stacking at 50 pip intervals, which is really far too frequent (as I've come to believe, YMMV), due to what seems to be an accelerated pace at which the stacks potential profit dwindles. So now I go with 100 pips (which is essentially completely arbitrary).

Another thing that people may be surprised about is that I chain smoke trades. When I say that, I mean that if one trade has gone up 100 pips, then I'm ready to put another one straight on at that point. I still take a moment to make a minor assessment of what the pair has done recently. A spike up is just dangerous, as well as a reasonable move up that seems to have stalled and deciding what to do. What you'd prefer is to have a retrace just finishing and moving back up around that 100 pip mark (above the previous trade). However, given all this grey area, I don't wait and look for any specific new 'signal', other than really watching out for it being a typically 'bad' or risky time to put it on. The reasoning behind this is that my existing trade is managing quite fine in the current market movement, so what's the issue if I had another trade on? (Note: we've also noted previously how entries are less significant/critical than exits.)

If you consider me putting on a trade every 10 pips, you'd call me a lunatic, but compared to that, that's exactly what having that one trade on that's gone up 10 pips. The difference is having to manage each of those trades separately and due to price fluctuations, you can't remove trades efficiently from the top as the market moves. Secondly, each trade has a physical affect on your capital, where a single trade only has a single, net affect - the potential profit/loss.

So, going back to my one trade every 100 pips, if we compare that to the ten, 10pip trades, we should extend our thought to doing a single 1,000 pip trade, no? We get all the safety and ease of only managing one trade (potential profit/loss) and none of the accelerated, combined loss of multiple trades pulling back and reducing our stack profits. However this doesn't provide the benefits of stacked trades increased profits. So essentially we have to find a balance of how often we can increase our trade stack.

So, I suppose we can talk about the rate of stacking, the ATR or ADR, timeframes in regards to trading the trend...and our expectations. I'd say 200-300 pips is probably reasonable for trends (which I think I noted in other comments here or other threads) on a fairly regular basis, looking at H1 and H4. So, two stack trade sets are probably going to be usual, with the 3rd occasionally coming into play. Obviously that calculation is easily linked to my 100 pip trade plan, so I'd be interested to hear others comment (along with you Graviton, rather than probably only you replying).

So, we agree on stacking, but am I a bit crazy (too risky?) to stack the way I do?
Fascinating. Of course I have lots to say on this subject, but I'll wait to hear from some other traders. - G
For anyone else reading this thread, other comments ARE really helpful. Otherwise, I can just PM Graviton and we can have a private chat about this. :-/

Unless a lot of you actually get more out of Graviton and I (and one or two others) discussing these points ourselves?

Realise that you can't be wrong about what your ideas are if they work for you. If they aren't always working, it's probably good to write them down here and look at them. It's made me see that some of what I do isn't consistent enough and/or really a bit too loose. Then again, I've made some money doing it that way, so it can't be all bad. :-)

So, other response appreciated.
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