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The Rabbit Hole

  • #5,141
  • Jun 18, 2017 6:43am Jun 18, 2017 6:43am
Quoting jen101
{quote} I agree with you! I never said we had a capitalist society, just that I am a capitalist and always have been. Entrepreneurism in the small business owner has the potential to grow into something big, leading to a corporate. I agree there are cans of worms there, but surely it should be government regulations keeping things in check.
Agree it sb but Corporate lobbying has a big influence, which is where Pat is on firmer ground - trouble is he is conflating capitalism with poor governance.
Nothing strengthens authority so much as silence
  • #5,142
  • Jun 18, 2017 6:48am Jun 18, 2017 6:48am
Quoting Pat494
That Tower block fire a few days ago in London just shows what corner and cost cutting achieves ! Sprinkler systems were recommended years ago but not installed. Someone made some extra bucks but at the cost of lives being lost and a NEW tower is needed.
In the UK we have something called Building Regulations. It is usually pretty strict. So don't blame the business for supplying the dodgy cladding, blame the authorities. Why was that ever passed? Ditto sprinkler systems. That should have been within building regs!

If you're saying that the authorities are in the back pockets of the corporates, then that is corruption and that needs to be addressed. Nothing to do with capitalism.
  • #5,143
  • Jun 18, 2017 6:48am Jun 18, 2017 6:48am
We gotta leave NOW

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=616&v=Q8nDDyoTqec
Nothing strengthens authority so much as silence
  • #5,144
  • Jun 18, 2017 6:52am Jun 18, 2017 6:52am
No one made any bucks ,ill eat my hat if that building wasn't built to regs
The more lives at risk the higher the spec ,no residential has sprinklers unless theres something specific that calls for them as other methods are used
clearly something failed but you or anyone else doesn't know yet

Think about how easy would it be to retro fit unless you start bolting the pipes in view through rooms its not simply the cost

If that building had performed as expected people would have got out in time and the fire wouldn't have spread

Quoting Pat494
That Tower block fire a few days ago in London just shows what corner and cost cutting achieves ! Sprinkler systems were recommended years ago but not installed. Someone made some extra bucks but at the cost of lives being lost and a NEW tower is needed.
On-site guru & also FF member's' psychiatrist, when not drinking tea
  • #5,145
  • Edited 10:51am Jun 18, 2017 7:02am | Edited 10:51am
I live in a 2010 built tall building no sprinklers not one ,fire alarm goes off all the time I can hardly hear & its and not linked to the fire alarm in my apartment
built privately its exactly the same for me

btw only 1 fire escape staircase in my building and we have full hieght cedar (timber cladding) to some sections


I can tell you why sprinklers are fitted in office blocks shopping centres etc is because of the numbers of people per room
everything has a cost V benefit ,theres widely accepted safe ways to do things
On-site guru & also FF member's' psychiatrist, when not drinking tea
  • #5,146
  • Edited 10:28am Jun 18, 2017 7:09am | Edited 10:28am
Im actually feeling angry how the Left have directed this like the people in the building lives are worth less without any facts at all
I see a lot of political motivation in a lot of comments which is not helping

Quoting Pat494
That Tower block fire a few days ago in London just shows what corner and cost cutting achieves ! Sprinkler systems were recommended years ago but not installed. Someone made some extra bucks but at the cost of lives being lost and a NEW tower is needed.
On-site guru & also FF member's' psychiatrist, when not drinking tea
  • #5,147
  • Edited 8:01am Jun 18, 2017 7:47am | Edited 8:01am
Quoting Pat494
That Tower block fire a few days ago in London just shows what corner and cost cutting achieves ! Sprinkler systems were recommended years ago but not installed. Someone made some extra bucks but at the cost of lives being lost and a NEW tower is needed.
the flat that the fire stared in has a very strange sequences of events the guy that live there had his begs packed before alerting anyone then knocked on his neighbours door to alert her about the fire which she said was still small and he wound have be able to put it out if instead of packing his begs in suitcases whilst letting the fire get out of control. this is what happens what the government give out free/cut price living in a great place it's still not enough so you have to kill your neighbours because you have a problem with your accommodation and if you just set a fire you will get a new place to live without having a deposit or proof of earnings this is not capitalism faults this is giving something for nothings fault sorry to sound mean spirited but that guy should be getting done for some criminal charges also it would have cost about 6000 to make the new features fireproof this should be done to all future buildings
  • #5,148
  • Edited 1:15pm Jun 18, 2017 8:05am | Edited 1:15pm
Hi Ross this is wrong and 6k is wrong the panels were fire resistant unless someone broke the law and the papers are guessing because they seemed to burn.
There fire resistant like a wooden door 60 min FR means it will hold for 60 min thats when it burns or fails
Its designed to give you time when that fire spread in minuets, the flat itself would be at least 60min and the staircase maybe 120min all this seems to have failed
heres the building regs on tall building cladding
Fire safety standards, embodied in Building Regulations Part B Fire Safety and associated Approved Documents, are designed to ensure that adequate fire safety provisions are incorporated in High Rise Buildings of whatever type. Regulation B4 requires the external walls of a building to adequately resist the spread of fire with functional requirements given in Approved Documents. In any building, the cladding system and materials must conform or exceed the regulation for limited combustibility defined in BR 135: Fire Performance of External Insulation for Walls of Multi-Storey Buildings, when tested in accordance with BS 8414-1:2002 and BS 8414-2:2005 for its range of external wall insulation systems. This testing satisfies building regulations in England & Wales and Scotland pertaining to fire for buildings over 18 metres tall. The BR 135 classification is called for as an alternative guidance to non-combustibility compliance for domestic and commercial applications

Interesting about the guy I can see it or even someone holding flammable goods for whatever reason or even the Gas pipes feeding the building breached somehow its early to say what is the reason all I know is its reported very unusual but its likely not purely the specification thats wrong

If any resident is at fault there be lots people that need to apologise ,kick off with Corbyn who's very first response while it burnt indicated cuts as a reason which he kept stirring up ..ill stick to that being a highly unlikely outcome

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/817120/Grenfell-Tower-fire-London-Jeremy-Corbyn-government-cuts-local-authority-funding

Quoting Ross88
{quote} the flat that the fire stared in has a very strange sequences of events the guy that live there had his begs packed before alerting anyone then knocked on his neighbours door to alert her about the fire which she said was still small and he wound have be able to put it out if instead of packing his begs in suitcases whilst letting the fire get out of control. this is what happens what the government give out free/cut price living in a great place it's still not enough so you have to kill your neighbours because you have a problem with your...
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On-site guru & also FF member's' psychiatrist, when not drinking tea
  • #5,149
  • Jun 18, 2017 8:06am Jun 18, 2017 8:06am
Quoting Ross88
{quote} the flat that the fire stared in has a very strange sequences of events the guy that live there had his begs packed before alerting anyone then knocked on his neighbours door to alert her about the fire which she said was still small and he wound have be able to put it out if instead of packing his begs in suitcases whilst letting the fire get out of control. this is what happens what the government give out free/cut price living in a great place it's still not enough so you have to kill your neighbours because you have a problem with your...
Thanks Ross. I didn't know that.
  • #5,150
  • Edited 10:25am Jun 18, 2017 8:13am | Edited 10:25am
The cost to go fire rated is not just the m2 of the panel ,then other things change like the substructure fr breaks and other materials ,
Also Labour to fit it shoots up since higher fire rating is so much more ground work the panels themselves get very dense/heavy and harder to work.
The newspapers pricing the cost difference is a joke .
If those panels weren't fire rated in the specification of the works you will knock me down with a feather .Who in a council would break the law for taxpayers money and put themselves at risk of prison.
Someone would be in big trouble and thats not the government itself
On-site guru & also FF member's' psychiatrist, when not drinking tea
  • #5,151
  • Jun 18, 2017 8:22am Jun 18, 2017 8:22am
Quoting Bones
The cost to go fire rated is not just the m2 of the panel ,then other things change like the substructure fr breaks and other materials ,if those panels weren't fire rated ill eat my hat Someone would be in big trouble and thats not the government itself
i read that the ones on these flats would have been illegal in America for not coming up to standards with regards to fire safety but time will tell as more details come out
  • #5,152
  • Jun 18, 2017 8:35am Jun 18, 2017 8:35am
Yea it's illegal here
no one has said what the actual panel is officially when theres 3 types ,like I say I know how building control work on other stuff
no one would allow/spec something non fire rated when its against the law ,so America banning is another misleading story without technical detail
we could see they burnt and the papers I've seen done technical work like costs all by themselves with guess work
thats why tensions on the ground have gone so high which is the bit I'm not happy about
if theres something unusual about the initial fire/temperature the panels could fail straight off bat

read the regulations I posted ,It can't be non fire rated ,thats not fire proof just resistant
Having said that there may be a worldwide design fault in the system ,



Quoting Ross88
{quote} i read that the ones on these flats would have been illegal in America for not coming up to standards with regards to fire safety but time will tell as more details come out
Attached Image
On-site guru & also FF member's' psychiatrist, when not drinking tea
  • #5,153
  • Edited 10:58am Jun 18, 2017 9:30am | Edited 10:58am
My understanding is its the fire brigade testing the panels as we speak ,my guess is know ones saying the spec because now liabilities, insurance, and jail are involved
also a inderpendent test is now required on the actual product
If the Panels are not fire rated someone broke the law probably the contractor not the government or the council or maybe wasn't fitted properly ,
the possible options of combined fault are limitless
like many major accidents its probably a combination of many factors coming together with a whole raft of possibilities in regard to to the re-fit.
On-site guru & also FF member's' psychiatrist, when not drinking tea
  • #5,154
  • Jun 18, 2017 9:58am Jun 18, 2017 9:58am
What is wrong with us Brits? Terrorists slaughter us on our own soil: candles and prayer. A tragic accident happens: march on Number 10.
Nothing strengthens authority so much as silence
  • #5,155
  • Jun 18, 2017 10:32am Jun 18, 2017 10:32am
Yep diversity is good for us

Levenshulme High School for Girls in Manchester(where a number of schoolgirls recently died), England has changed a bit

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Nothing strengthens authority so much as silence
  • #5,156
  • Jun 18, 2017 10:48am Jun 18, 2017 10:48am
Grenfell Tower facts.


Local Govt: Lab
Planning Cmte: Lab MP
Mayor: Lab
Built under: Lab

Blame? "TORRIEEESSSS!!!"
Nothing strengthens authority so much as silence
  • #5,157
  • Jun 18, 2017 11:07am Jun 18, 2017 11:07am
Quoting Magog
What is wrong with us Brits? Terrorists slaughter us on our own soil: candles and prayer. A tragic accident happens: march on Number 10.
cultural marxist indoctrination.

Same thing was done to Europe. What saved Central Europe was being under real communism. Kept the cultural feels crap out.

Same thing being attempted here in the states. We have these antifa losers (along with all manner of other leftist drivel groups) wanting a fight. I would pity their dumb asses when it finally gets to that point, but I do not have the means to have sympathy or compassion for people who hate me.
Mark ... Everything you have been told is a LIE
  • #5,158
  • Jun 18, 2017 11:17am Jun 18, 2017 11:17am
Quoting Pat494
Those same forests have been described as " the lungs of the planet" with good reason. They are more valuable than figures in a bank. Without clean air and water the planet dies.
I forgot to address this point. You are wrong; it is not the forests, it is the algae in the sea which are the lungs of the planet. Plants need a lot of CO2 to thrive. The more CO2 there is and the warmer the climate, the more plants grow. Simple thing called photosynthesis. Get your scientific facts right. Here we go again, don't let the truth get in the way.
  • #5,159
  • Jun 18, 2017 11:53am Jun 18, 2017 11:53am
Quoting jen101
{quote} I forgot to address this point. You are wrong; it is not the forests, it is the algae in the sea which are the lungs of the planet. Plants need a lot of CO2 to thrive. The more CO2 there is and the warmer the climate, the more plants grow. Simple thing called photosynthesis. Get your scientific facts right. Here we go again, don't let the truth get in the way.
Trying to reason with the mingarys and pats of the world is like putting toothpaste back in the tube -- time wasted. They simply don't comprehend facts or reality. Suppose it's beneficial to have them drop by occasionally -- keeps us aware of some of humanity's flaws.
Defending Truth, Capitalism and the US Constitution
  • #5,160
  • Jun 18, 2017 12:03pm Jun 18, 2017 12:03pm
B gone this week. Keeping son's 2 boys this week, aged 7 and 10. Heading to Mt. Pleasant (just north of Charleston) in morning. Up early Tuesday morning for half day of deep sea fishing. Eldest one like Stu -- rather fish than eat. Wednesday morning off to North Carolina for couple days at a water park hotel complex for young kids to old kids (like me ). Grandma has issued a executive order that there will be no electronic devices resembling a computer (order specifically named grandpa as co-conspirator) -- we are to communicate by talking to one another. Outa the trenches and over the top!! Y'all have a wonderful week and green pips to all!
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Defending Truth, Capitalism and the US Constitution
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