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How to make a living with trading?

  • #241
  • Mar 27, 2017 6:15am Mar 27, 2017 6:15am
Quoting guybaker
{quote} Are you profitable ? Could you teach your "Price Action" skills?
Hello guybaker. I hope you are well today. You can use the fractal indicator to learn price action.
If you are good at something, never do it for free--Joker
  • #242
  • Mar 27, 2017 6:20am Mar 27, 2017 6:20am
Quoting jmn5611
{quote} Hello guybaker. I hope you are well today. You can use the fractal indicator to learn price action.

Thanks..

Actually I am looking for successful manual traders, my hope is that it would be possible to encapsulate their skills into software.
I live entirely from the growth of my personal trading account
  • #243
  • Mar 27, 2017 6:24am Mar 27, 2017 6:24am
Quoting guybaker
{quote} Thanks.. Actually I am looking for successful manual traders, my hope is that it would be possible to encapsulate their skills into software.
Could you better define what your definition of a manual trader is? I think all of us are using tools to some degree, the least being to make certain tasks easier.
  • #244
  • Mar 27, 2017 6:46am Mar 27, 2017 6:46am
Quoting TGS
{quote} Could you better define what your definition of a manual trader is? I think all of us are using tools to some degree, the least being to make certain tasks easier.
Manual = Executing by pressing the buy/sell button on the trading platform

All off my rules are coded and my software executes without my intervention using an interface to my broker (IG.com). It maybe from time to time I adjust the configuration or code, but day to day it is automatic.
I live entirely from the growth of my personal trading account
  • #245
  • Mar 27, 2017 6:50am Mar 27, 2017 6:50am
Quoting guybaker
{quote} Thanks.. Actually I am looking for successful manual traders, my hope is that it would be possible to encapsulate their skills into software.
No software will produce the discretionary feel that manual traders have for the market. If that were the case LTCM would own the world today. Now I know machines do the majority of trading even today, but they are not doing anything different than good old price action, believe it or not. Measured moves, digital trend lines, 50% pullbacks, etc. but they do it so much faster than we can. That is the genesis of HFT. I am speaking as a complete novice to algorithmic trading. I know very little other than the most basic things.
If you are good at something, never do it for free--Joker
  • #246
  • Mar 27, 2017 6:55am Mar 27, 2017 6:55am
Quoting jmn5611
{quote} No software will produce the discretionary feel that manual traders have for the market. If that were the case LTCM would own the world today. Now I know machines do the majority of trading even today, but they are not doing anything different than good old price action, believe it or not. Measured moves, digital trend lines, 50% pullbacks, etc. but they do it so much faster than we can. That is the genesis of HFT. I am speaking as a complete novice to algorithmic trading. I know very little other than the most basic things.

Exactly. Well I am an algo pro. So any traders that have a systems that could be coded, could in principal work with me on a project together.

I have two of my own designed systems, one running live since December 2015 and one the second coded but in forward test.
I live entirely from the growth of my personal trading account
  • #247
  • Mar 27, 2017 7:05am Mar 27, 2017 7:05am
Quoting guybaker
{quote} Thanks.. Actually I am looking for successful manual traders, my hope is that it would be possible to encapsulate their skills into software.
You will get a lot from following Niall Fuller. http://www.learntotradethemarket.com/ I use S&R heavily like he does plus I use patterns. Good luck!
  • #248
  • Mar 27, 2017 7:08am Mar 27, 2017 7:08am
Quoting jen101
{quote} You will get a lot from following Niall Fuller. http://www.learntotradethemarket.com/ I use S&R heavily like he does plus I use patterns. Good luck!

Honestly, I found him a bit vague, does he actually publish his live trading results now?
I live entirely from the growth of my personal trading account
  • #249
  • Mar 27, 2017 7:10am Mar 27, 2017 7:10am
Quoting guybaker
I have two of my own designed systems, one running live since December 2015 and one the second coded but in forward test.
Have you considered creating a Trade Explorer for the one running since 2015? That's an achievement since I personally have yet to see a method running successfully for over a year.
  • #250
  • Mar 27, 2017 7:22am Mar 27, 2017 7:22am
Quoting TGS
{quote} Have you considered creating a Trade Explorer for the one running since 2015? That's an achievement since I personally have yet to see a method running successfully for over a year.
Yeah I have, but it does not support my broker IG.com

I am happy to share my statements with anybody serious though
I live entirely from the growth of my personal trading account
  • #251
  • Mar 27, 2017 7:34am Mar 27, 2017 7:34am
Just stick with the trading system
Risk comes from not knowing what you're doing.
  • #252
  • Mar 27, 2017 7:39am Mar 27, 2017 7:39am
Quoting dragonexpert
Just stick with the trading system
Yeah I hear you, but I have the machine doing everything, I need more projects to keep me sane!!!
I live entirely from the growth of my personal trading account
  • #253
  • Mar 27, 2017 11:34am Mar 27, 2017 11:34am
Quoting guybaker
{quote} Yeah I hear you, but I have the machine doing everything, I need more projects to keep me sane!!!
the machine is the most easy part, anyone has a computer. :-).

the trading programs are more complicated. and not many find solutions that work for 20 years same style. but most use statistical edges, so of course you need to change often many things, because statistic can changes very often.

but when your trading program works, why create new programs? just improve yours, so you can increase amount more and more. thats also some work you need to do and some programming structure to implement, for using bigger amounts and avoiding more possible errors.
  • #254
  • Mar 27, 2017 11:41am Mar 27, 2017 11:41am
Quoting dukas_trader
{quote} the machine is the most easy part, anyone has a computer. :-). the trading programs are more complicated. and not many find solutions that work for 20 years same style. but most use statistical edges, so of course you need to change often many things, because statistic can changes very often. but when your trading program works, why create new programs? just improve yours, so you can increase amount more and more. thats also some work you need to do and some programming structure to implement, for using bigger amounts and avoiding more possible...

I am improving mine.

Zen will go live soon.

I like to program, with these robots running I don't need to work actually, but I like coding, so....
I live entirely from the growth of my personal trading account
  • #255
  • Edited Mar 28, 2017 4:11am Mar 27, 2017 12:01pm | Edited Mar 28, 2017 4:11am
Quoting guybaker
{quote} I am improving mine. Zen will go live soon. I like to program, with these robots running I don't need to work actually, but I like coding, so....
ok, i can give you some easy (some hours till days programming work, depends how much includes and visual parts you allready have) work to do, that improves a lot.
  • #256
  • Mar 27, 2017 12:39pm Mar 27, 2017 12:39pm
Thanks.. I don't use MetaTrader actually, and for me to get excited about a project I have to be able to see a big picture, I must be able to believe there is £1m in it
I live entirely from the growth of my personal trading account
  • #257
  • Edited 1:33pm Mar 27, 2017 12:56pm | Edited 1:33pm
Quoting guybaker
Thanks.. I don't use MetaTrader actually, and for me to get excited about a project I have to be able to see a big picture, I must be able to believe there is 1m in it
hmm, in what project is not 1 mill at least? ok, we speak about 1 year or more i hope so and with a good capital basis and only a drawdown of 10 % from the wins (to have a good secure strategy and be ready for big events, flash crashs,gaps,...) , or ? best are strategies that have the monthly win about the same like the max drawdown, so its very easy to trust and the loss are not big enough to get you in trouble and get fast back in the trading line. and not get in trouble is best you can get by a program. of course also not get in trouble by program code, thats why 2-3 security structures are also in of course, thats most important from starting. i have seen a program run crazy one time in my starting time, nothing more dangerous like this ( and only because broker did change something with comment field behavior).

for me each of this programs was worth about 100k until 5 mill (or saved years in time or much spare time), but i cant say how much you trade and how much capital you use or to how many prime brokers you are connected or what frontend you use. i prefer easy frontends, connected by api to broker, so have frontend and broker and connected directly, so you can design strategies more easy and free of any problems.

what frontend do you use, ninja trader?
  • #258
  • Mar 27, 2017 2:37pm Mar 27, 2017 2:37pm
Quoting guybaker
{quote} Exactly. Well I am an algo pro. So any traders that have a systems that could be coded, could in principal work with me on a project together. I have two of my own designed systems, one running live since December 2015 and one the second coded but in forward test.
Guy, believe it or not, I learned 99% of everything I know about trading from relentlessly reading these threads on this site. Once, I put together a moving average system that is built for the newbie that just has the logic of buy when price is above all the lines and momentum is rising, and vice versa. I am sure you algo guys have done everything that can be done, because PA is very straight forward. Buy low, sell high, use the principles of Infinite Yield and hold as long as possible. You are going to laugh, but a lot times when I will just a standard Bill Williams template, because even though he was horrible at explaining things in a coherent manner, that template actually models naked price action quite well. Maybe you could code those rules, but even then there is a large discretionary component, like when to move one of five possible stops in that particular system. That is why that thread is dead. Anyways, good luck in your endeavors, I am fairly sure however that if your system becomes very profitable and your broker collects enough data points they will reverse engineer you. That is always the rub in algo trading.
If you are good at something, never do it for free--Joker
  • #259
  • Mar 27, 2017 9:53pm Mar 27, 2017 9:53pm
Quoting PiranoTrader
{quote} Trading is a full-time job as i see it. And a hard job it is if you want to have some results on a longer run. I tried to combine job and trading in the beggining but results came only after I gave trading 100% of my focus. If I can't focus only on trading then it's a hobby. I rather have other stress-free and cheaper hobbies
I agree with this. Try being a part time musician or anything emotionally taxing like a job. Almost next to none impossible to handle the two at once.
  • #260
  • Mar 28, 2017 12:44am Mar 28, 2017 12:44am
Quoting jmn5611
{quote} No software will produce the discretionary feel that manual traders have for the market. If that were the case LTCM would own the world today. Now I know machines do the majority of trading even today, but they are not doing anything different than good old price action, believe it or not. Measured moves, digital trend lines, 50% pullbacks, etc. but they do it so much faster than we can. That is the genesis of HFT. I am speaking as a complete novice to algorithmic trading. I know very little other than the most basic things.

Explain to me please, how that "discretionary feel" improves my trading. A lot of traders go on and on with that kind of statements. From my experience the biggest part of that "feel" is traders own emotions. And every time i relied on my emotions I got burned. That is why trading is so hard, because controling emotions is hard. That means a trader must be always emotionally stable, every time and every moment when entering the position, sl, tp, money management, ... always. For me at least that is mission impossible. That's why i had some good runs for few months, then because of some "feelings" i lost too much in few bad trades ... and then you're in the downward spiral.
And not to mention that manually it is impossible to do a proper backtest of your strategy.

That is why IMO i will never trade manually again. If you have a well defined strategy (read: it can be coded) than it should be more succesful than you pressing the button any time. If you leave some chances for your "feeling" to decide ... well that will burn you sooner or later.
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