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Forex - A negative sum game for losers

  • #41
  • Mar 25, 2017 3:22am Mar 25, 2017 3:22am
Quoting cuchuflito
{quote} TRUE people are getting ripped off by manipulation, mostly in the form of stop hunting,either "hidden", stealth, or spread widening, news. The smaller the time frame the more frequent.Areas where retailers have their stops work like "attractors", like the old pac man game.Almost every significant swing begins "fueled" by "retailer meat"being stop run...(they call it "liquidity pools"). Forex is indeed a money transfer, from the retailers , to the 5 big banks that control 70% of volume (you can Google the exact fugure).In between is the broker,...
As usual Great Words from Cuchflito...

You introduced me to the concept of Stop Loss hunting and ever since i think that we should have some room for the trade to breath vis a vis the S/L hunting.
You also mention Daily and Weekly Spikes, so considering even High Impact News Events

What would you consider a Good S/L that can act as a cushion considering all the above for taking trades on 4HR or Daily TF? {Trend Trading}

100 Pips/150 PIPS/200 PIPS/....500 Pips or something like a ATR Multiplier of 3/4/5/...../8?

Have a great weekend....

Thanks
  • #42
  • Mar 25, 2017 3:23am Mar 25, 2017 3:23am
Quoting feline207
So much bullshit on this forum it is just out of control. Why do a bunch of losers have to tell if making money with forex is possible or not? I agree with the statistics, surely >99% of traders are failure in the longterm. So to get this straight - losers are paying the winners. If the 1% made 1 billion today, that billion comes from millions of losers that lost their money, not directly, but that is the end conclusion. Trading is representation of life in general. 90 out of 100 dont have the capacity to make it at the first place. The other 10...

pushing a button to trade is a case that my kid in his kg can do it.

trading is not easy

to sell in a supermarket bag of lemon is not easy as an example

you need to wait the buyer for many hours

to sell a bag of bread in is very fast as all need to eat bread but not all will buy lemon as it is a luxury in some point for some persons.

again yes i am with you, if i gain 100 dollars, that is meaning there some people lost this 100 usd

but i am against you in the following points , not all people here are to brag or to fool or to market products and fore sure some of them are here to help the losers

if someone wants to share his charts, ideas and his trading account, eithier he wants to brag or he is asking and crying for help but in polite way

i was one of these simple traders who lost a lot to train, but when i begin to make some real money and my methods in trading are good in my eyes , i have shared them to increase my knowledge and to teach the one who is losing that you can survive

i want to ask you one question : who are the persons reading these articles in FF and other fourms ?

they are fathers, young traders ( male and female) , family men want to increase their income and THEY ARE NOT LAZY AS YOU HAVE SAID, BCZ SIMPLY THEY ARE READING THE FF ARTICLES TO INCREASE THEIR KNOWLEDGE .... BUT IT SEEMS TO ME that many people here do not understand what si the meaning to be under debt and you need extra income to close your debt.

this is not HYIP, forex is not HYIP... man come on , there must be losers not bcz they are losers but bcz there are out there some ugly gurus who control the fx market in a dirty way to move the market against the open trades...

i do not want to brag here, but many people like me lsot real money and after many years we begin to ake good income from forex and i feel very shame that i have built good minformation and i do not pass it to others , do you think the bankers will react to our writings here, no they will not bcz they have millions to buy the cleverest minds in the world to build up their systems..

who is on FF are mostly people want to make some money to live and why you are reading this thread now bcz you need to find a possible way to make money - extra money

i like to pass my information and exp to others to stop falling in the traps of the brokers and the scams
GUYS BE AWARE FROM HUNTING YOUR STOP LOSSES BY YOUR BROKER & BY "GHOSTS"
  • #43
  • Mar 25, 2017 3:34am Mar 25, 2017 3:34am
Quoting KamaZ
Samer1970 0-20% per month - very good result - above that you playing with fire. If You get this consistantly with low dd- sell your signals - you dont have even invest ur money - you ll have hundreds of subscribers

sharing is caring

i have shared my system here to all

i do not want to sell anything

yes i am sales manager in my field but i am a father and trader who feels with the losers who lost thier real hard earned money for scammers in forex space as they are not lazy traders but they were being fooled by the brokers and the market makers.

to sell signals is against my principles, if i will lose, i will lose alone, why should i lose and suck with me others ... there is not a complete system for trading forex

even the bankers who have millions to pay for purchasing the best minds to build up the best strategies are losing like us... but the net profit for them is more than their loses..... not like us...

again

sharing is caring
GUYS BE AWARE FROM HUNTING YOUR STOP LOSSES BY YOUR BROKER & BY "GHOSTS"
  • #44
  • Mar 25, 2017 4:13am Mar 25, 2017 4:13am
Just a trader who is part of the 0.1% in forex. Herein lies the trick:

"Follow the news when markets are no longer efficient....but beware of the whipsaws, so the trick is
to find out where the big boys are sailing from. To win in this game is to trade fewer than 3 times a year. "

What happens when you leave money on the table? who has access to data? and finally when are markets least liquid?

....if you can decipher it....well done!! and enjoy life. Goodluck
  • #45
  • Mar 25, 2017 6:03am Mar 25, 2017 6:03am
Notice how everyone on the internet acts like he's the man.
  • #46
  • Mar 25, 2017 6:36am Mar 25, 2017 6:36am
Quoting player1pl
Notice how everyone on the internet acts like he's the man.
It takes a lot of time and experience to fully digest that almost everyone is a loser and you shouldnt be taking anything seriously and shouldnt follow others. Forget the idea that someone is going to be helping you the right way, most probably wont ever happen.. In trading it is vital to be able to trust only yourself and stand behind your own decisions. It will be your loss, your profit.
  • #47
  • Mar 25, 2017 6:50am Mar 25, 2017 6:50am
Forex trading is not a gambling game. Not to be taken so easily.... New comers always think that they can make a huge sum of money easily in forex by following signals, autobots, copy trades ... and etc. (actually these things are - the game for losers).

To become a forex trader itself are not an easy task.... One should learn about markets, fundamentals, technicals, major countries economic outlook, and most importantly should develop a profitable trading strategy which include a powerful entry/exit levels, risk/reward ratios, market timing, currency pair characteristics, macro economics, brokerage and money management.....

Of course there will be profitable and loss trades.... Traders needs to be always ready to make rational decisions according to live market conditions.

If you are willing to go through and master all these...than definitely you will become a profitable trader.

GOOD LUCK everyone... Happy Trading.
STRENGHT IS LIFE ,WEAKNESS IS DEATH - SWAMI VIVEKANANDA
  • #48
  • Mar 25, 2017 7:08am Mar 25, 2017 7:08am
Its the half a glass full or half empty - the golden rule with any new venture was it takes 3 years to just break even, that statistic still holds true today.
I had my first business 20 years ago just before the internet boom was kicking in, had numerous since all needing 3 years to find their way. Trading however i would say is a 5 year gig to master it in some way shape or form. Golden rules, stay away from the Markeeters, forget seeking the holy grail we have all been there and remember the most hard learnt lessons are the most valuable one. Discipline is key and in my trading style i learnt to get in and then out within 24 hours max.

Brokers - show me one who does not desire or wish to have the edge on you - YES they all have their own tricks which they perform, remember when money is involved people will go to extraordinary lengths to take it from you.

Thats my take anyways ..
  • #49
  • Mar 25, 2017 7:48am Mar 25, 2017 7:48am
I joined a signal service run by a nice chap by my estimation he is in trading about 3 years. He knows enough to be dangerous. In his group are people that follow his signal. One lost over 3K another blew his whole account. The guy was selling the DAX on Friday. One of the people said DAX is almost back at our entry what do we do. His answer was keep holding we are stuck in a range. The DAX then took out their stops. I started a group of my own because I felt for these people. I was trading against the guy on Friday.

What I see is that these people are clueless, completely utterly lacking in even the most basic knowledge, and they expect to make money? They do not understand risk control. The expect someone who they pay 40 quid a month to provide them great signals. You pay for what you get.

I don't know why people think they can trade and make money in a couple of months having learnt NOTHING. This is why people fail, they are lazy, ignorant and not prepared to invest in learning. FF is full of people that demand others share their knowledge for free and attack traders that sell anything. Tell me what other business people offer free advice and help when you ask. I can imagine asking my local plumber "hey tell me how you make money for free?"I want to be a plumber too and make loads of money but I don't want to bother training.

This business is very hard, frustrating and I would not recommend anyone bothering to trade. It is a boring repetitive job that means you sit about waiting for an uncertain outcome. If you can do it yes you will make a lot of money, but the investment of time is not worth it. Had I know how long it would have taken me I just would have done something else.

My forecast is for the DAX to make a final top in the month of APRIL 2017 the everyone gets caught with their pants down. The SP500 will also fall and Trump will become the most unpopular president in US history.
  • #50
  • Mar 25, 2017 8:33am Mar 25, 2017 8:33am
Forex trading is a gambling game. No discussion.

Nobody knows the price 1 week from now, nobody knows if it will be higher or it will be lower, BUT, thanks to market structure and wave analysis, in a few months anybody is able to make quite precisse bets on high probability turning points. There are more methods, but those are enought. Nothing else.

With some more experience one learns the apropiate point to set stops at a prudent distance for not being whipsawed when we are right about a predicted turning point.

With more experience we also can learn high probability target points and how to manage trades.

And that is all one can learn from experience. If you learn all that and you still are unprofitable is your problem.
  • #51
  • Mar 25, 2017 9:41am Mar 25, 2017 9:41am
Just an example this guy just made 90k usd per month of his subscription fees.
I dont no who his, neither recommend using his service.
dd 45% bit too much
https://www.mql5.com/ru/signals/129797
  • #52
  • Mar 25, 2017 10:56am Mar 25, 2017 10:56am
Rolf from Tradeceity just wrote something in his blog that I must share with you, so true, like he would be reading my mind:


"Some people like Twitter, Instagram or hanging out in random forums and find it valuable, but when it comes to actual trading, it’s horrible for your progress. When you see other people flashing lifestyle pictures or posting yet another great trade, while you still cannot make any money on demo and are stuck in your routine, it can easily lead to frustration if you are in the external multiplayer mindset. Such traders then often start looking for the next ‘hot’ system that promises great returns without putting in the work. Or, even worse, you’ll start pretending to be something you are not and so create a lot of internal dissonance (lying to yourself and knowing that you suck) and stop focusing on what is important: studying to become a better trader.

The successful traders, business men or athletes don’t brag or show off. They work in quietness and let their results speak for themselves, and they don’t get their satisfaction from what others think. They are 100% focused on themselves without caring about what others are doing."
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  • #53
  • Mar 25, 2017 12:09pm Mar 25, 2017 12:09pm
Quoting KamaZ
Just an example this guy just made 90k usd per month of his subscription fees. I dont no who his, neither recommend using his service. dd 45% bit too much https://www.mql5.com/ru/signals/129797
DD of 45% guy is a Muppet risk is the only thing you can control. I would rather get stopped out 10 times at break even than lose a single pip to the broker. People that say you have to let a trade breathe do so because they can't identify entry points.k
  • #54
  • Edited 12:45pm Mar 25, 2017 12:35pm | Edited 12:45pm
Quoting Hurst
{quote} DD of 45% guy is a Muppet risk is the only thing you can control. I would rather get stopped out 10 times at break even than lose a single pip to the broker. People that say you have to let a trade breathe do so because they can't identify entry points.k
I agree... 45 % max drawdown is suicide on longer time scale. I don't see any signal provider MQL5 that has less then 10 % max drawdown, profitability factor higher then 2 and winrate around 40-50 %. All I see is systems that will kill ones account given enough time. High drawdowns are associated with too much risk taking per position or/and low risk:reward ratio expectations. You have to let your trade have room to breathe but you also have to know when to cut loses if price proves you wrong. These systems are mostly playing ranging markets, but sometimes price doesn't recover per years or decades. Look at EUR/USD. One wrong trade in such market condition is enough to wipe your account.

And you usually see signal providers that are playing with 1K starting accounts or even less. Some of them get lucky and survive, but most of them are wiped out. Show me a guy or a girl with starting 50K account and achieving mentioned goals over 3 years time period and I'm more then willing to buy his/her signals.
  • #55
  • Mar 25, 2017 1:05pm Mar 25, 2017 1:05pm
Personlly l would never buy trading signals. I learned the hard way. Due to circumstances l was forced to learn trading or become a lowly paid employee.

Everything l read on trading l now realise is rubbish. If l hear Elliot waves fib numbers or any indicator. I know it's crap. Also people talking about 1% risk. Designed to keep losers pulling the slot machine handle. I take trades at 5% risk as soon as l go 5 or 6 pips in profit my stop is at break even. Sure do get stopped out a lot, but my DD is zero and l make 10% a day. Now l know you can lose 70 % of trades and still make money. But I don't like that approach.

You can blame the broker stop hunters the whole world. Its you that took the trade, if you are loosing then you are doing it wrong. Either pay to learn to do it right or do what l did and study it for 8 years.

Trading is not get rich quick, with knowledge comes money. It will either be earned paid for. But it will never be free.
  • #56
  • Edited 1:54pm Mar 25, 2017 1:14pm | Edited 1:54pm
Quote
Best chances are are a 100% disciplined, deeply studied, and backtested system, on higher time frames (preferably)...which keeps on adapting and correcting to new variables. AND it must be ready to "absorb" even dayly and weekly spikes.

Funny you should say this as I have spent 2 years developing such a system on MT4.

The system uses H1 Support & Resistance levels and changes it's trading style based on W1 trend.

The W1 trending isn't fully automated as yet - the trading style adjusts automatically but problematic trades aren't automatically closed. But it's no hassle as W1 is slow moving. Instead I have a semi-automated approach to this (I draw S&R, channels etc manually and these are used as close indicators).

'It' works on any market - I'm currently testing 27 FX pairs simultaneously. Backtesting any single market it can handle 1 lot per 10,000 account balance with ease (equity curve virtually matches balance). Single market testing normally yields between a 200% and 400% pa per market. Sounds a lot I know but I bank a lot of movement during that time.

Anyway... back on topic I have tried many automated approaches and to date have never managed to get a small trade / high leverage system to be profitable. I would backtest 6-12 months of data, go live and the market would completely change and it would fail. Quite sole destroying thinking you've "cracked it" only to fail time and time again.

The extra leverage however is useful for my system - and certainly will be with the unpredictability that multiple markets will bring.

I'm sure someone has got a good system which scalps at high leverage but for me it was just way too risky / unpredictable.

It would certainly be a shame to lose the leverage because others can't use it responsibly.

Having said this 100:1 is more than adequate for me.
  • #57
  • Mar 25, 2017 1:37pm Mar 25, 2017 1:37pm
Quoting aaven
{quote} As usual Great Words from Cuchflito... You introduced me to the concept of Stop Loss hunting and ever since i think that we should have some room for the trade to breath vis a vis the S/L hunting. You also mention Daily and Weekly Spikes, so considering even High Impact News Events What would you consider a Good S/L that can act as a cushion considering all the above for taking trades on 4HR or Daily TF? {Trend Trading} 100 Pips/150 PIPS/200 PIPS/....500 Pips or something like a ATR Multiplier of 3/4/5/...../8? Have a great weekend.......
Thank you brother
Amount of pip stop loss?, that is a million dollar question....that is exactly what we need to study, back test , and understand for ourselves, depending on your sytem...in all the variables of your system, lies the key to success, or failure...long term.

Best of success to you anyway...
BTW: just by looking at the charts, you will find that stop hunting increases exponentially the smaller the time frame...still , here and there they will run even a weekly fractal, only to run away in the original direction...if you can minimize those ...the ones that hit you will be just "buseness expenses".
  • #58
  • Mar 25, 2017 2:31pm Mar 25, 2017 2:31pm
Quoting The-Flipper
{quote} That's exactly the case.
Congrats !!!
  • #59
  • Mar 25, 2017 3:47pm Mar 25, 2017 3:47pm
The topic owner sounds like someone who has lost and now is going to announce his small crusade against an industry )...

Guys, I am a professional. Now, pls, let me offer few comments.

* The above statistics is not new, not complete, not accurate and in any case does not serve for any purpose except that "the trading industry is scum and you guys are fools."
* yes, indeed 80 to 99 percent of traders are losing in the long run. Ratio depends on 1) period of study, 2) instruments they trade and risk management, 3) their professional knowledge and suitability, 4) millions of other factors...
* same goes for any other business, profession or anything you do in your life. If you are 1) good, 2) skilled, 3) lucky, 4) millions of other factors ... you will either be successful or not...
* this business is very speedy, so you see results in days, hours or minutes...If you start bakery business, you may float for years before it fails. But essentially is the same.
* yes industry is not perfect. But governments not perfect. Some brokers cheat, but then governments do its all the time. Earthquakes happen. You can not avoid risks - though your nanny states and regulators are trying to protect you from everything. Best protection is on cemetery - there you are absolutely safe.
* I see many stupid clients every day. They come and start trading knowing nothing, following their greed and stupidity. This is their own decision - they are grown-ups. But they are not even willing to learn.
* People will study the new model of car for days, before spending 30K on new purchase but they do not want to learn the particular CFD trading conditions before trading same amount...
* Yes, trading is zero-sum game. If you do think different, then you do not see all the players and do not learn the rules.
* FX industry is not perfect as I said. But even if you start trading stocks or futures which are exchange traded products, transparent and regulated, your results won't change. Because you are not learning.
  • #60
  • Mar 26, 2017 3:00am Mar 26, 2017 3:00am
To finish up on this "bad industry/stupid retailer " thread...
Flash crashes are definitely something to be aware of..."Black Swans.."
Predictions are, they will increase in frequency.

Two in less than a year, they used to happen once in a decade..("Black Friday".)

The swissy "spiked" a whopping 1500 pips in less than an hour!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Forex is neither regulated nor centralized.Meaning stops are "honoured " by the kindness of your broker.
Funny cause ,some bucket shops actually were "kinder" to their clients than ETFs.
Etfs will only trigger your stop if there´s someone on the other side to take your trade...on the open market.

Some brokers returned winning positions with a loss...yes with a loss..Imagine sittting on a 50K profit that won´t trigger, (plattform freeze) and being handed a loss.Their excuse: they needed to do that to cover up the massive losses of the other clients.
There´s thousands of litigations on court...
Ever heard of negative balance?...Yes , some brokers could come and claim your house, and car ,and underpants...
Beware of leverage..

Most serious brokers did accept the stops at "reasonable" levels, and did not pursue their clients for negative balance, absorbing hundreds of millions in loss to keep up their reputation.They also handed the winners some cash...trying to keep everybody kind of happy.

Everybody should have a clear picture of the consquences of a 1000 pip "slippage"...on an open position..In my case, it would wipe out half of my account, which is far less dramatic than loosing my house..
Position sizing is the key here..

Enjoy life..really..
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