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How to make a living with trading?

  • #41
  • Mar 17, 2017 3:41pm Mar 17, 2017 3:41pm
Quoting PiranoTrader
.....
If you have the "skills" ... after a year about 250 trading days. Good luck
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The funniest, is that nobody takes me seriously.
  • #42
  • Mar 17, 2017 3:43pm Mar 17, 2017 3:43pm
Quoting hak444
@ If your starting capital is 10k...let it grow to 100k (use compounding to get there fast). Now take a small portion out of this, lets say 20k and open another account. Now you can trade more aggressively on this 20k account while you trade that 80k account as usual and withdrawing profits quarterly or whatever period you wish to. I mean the possibilities are endless. The idea is to just focus on 1 account and let it grow, once it reaches to a sizeable amount withdraw some then invest in another account, on which u can take extra risk. On your...
this will not work!
there are only 2 advantage in doing this style. you invest less in one broker, but with bank guarantee its nothing invested, so much more easy.
and when you have different liquity providers with this brokers, you can trade more volume.

without this 2, trading both strategies in 1 account is nothing different then trading in 1 account ( ok, when you are at the beginning its maybe more easy to see 2 seperate accounts because you see more easy what strategy is what...).

but your reason, split account because of the risk, is not possible with the 2 accounts, you still have same risk like trading both in 1 account. you have same trading risk, and same win, if you use one account or split it.
  • #43
  • Mar 17, 2017 3:58pm Mar 17, 2017 3:58pm
  •  hak444
  • | Joined Aug 2016 | Status: knowing is not enough,we must apply | 41 Posts
@dukas...Buddy i don't wana argue .... you can have your opinion . I preach what i do and this helps a lot.
And most of what you said i don't get but i think your also saying something good...LOL
Trading on separate account having different risk profile is helpful if you know what your doing otherwise its as you said don't make a difference.
I can accept failure but i can't accept not trying. (Michael Jordan)
  • #44
  • Mar 17, 2017 4:16pm Mar 17, 2017 4:16pm
Quoting hak444
@dukas...Buddy i don't wana argue .... you can have your opinion . I preach what i do and this helps a lot. And most of what you said i don't get but i think your also saying something good...LOL Trading on separate account having different risk profile is helpful if you know what your doing otherwise its as you said don't make a difference.
it doesent matter if you know what you do or not, you can do same in 2 different accounts like in one account. believe me, simple math (in this question no opinion possible, but nothing against you). i do this job 20 years .-). or do you use 2 different lp to get more volume tradeable same time?
if you have a question about what i did say, you can ask of course.

maybe its more easy to see visual for you, but has nothing to do with trading whats impossible to do in 1 account. if you trade some millions per trade you even have advantage by getting very low commission by trading all in 1 account.
  • #45
  • Mar 17, 2017 7:42pm Mar 17, 2017 7:42pm
Quoting PiranoTrader
{quote} Thank you for advice. But still i have to pay the bills every month so I have to withdraw the profit (or most of it at least) in any case. With that low budget i can't afford to do both (grow and withdraw) at the same time. There is simply not enough. If i wanted to make more money with the same budget I would have to over-risk and that is not an option.
I believe you have good money management. I checked your positions and equity curve. Sorry to offend you to say that you started on wrong footing in your career. What is the wrong footing- living on your trading at the beginning of your career. When I was being mentored I was taught, "Grow you account slowly, but steadily" and that we should not depend on our first trading account to pay bills and run other expenses. If you would take my advice, look for job, however small the salary may be. That would help reduce your complete dependence on your trading profits. I wish you good luck
Make all mistakes in demo and rain in pips in live account
9jatrader All Time Return: 18.0%
  • #46
  • Mar 17, 2017 8:26pm Mar 17, 2017 8:26pm
Your performance is good, but I will tell you now great traders are very knowledgeable and bold. e.g George Soros betting 1 billion on the British pound at a time his fund was just about 1billion in equity. Now think about this, betting his whole account on a single trade, of course he had a stop loss, he is smart enough not to lose his face on a trade. But think about the amount of leverage involved. Big returns come with big volatility.What I mean is, how many of you can ride those big winnings, with big volatility. Your account equity fluctuating widely on an hour to hour basis. From +90% to 40 % to 30% back to 60% 150%. Most of us will lose sleep and will have to exit at most likely a small profit. To be a great trader is a skill, the boldness to be indifferent to fluctuations in your equity. What you want is to be great, it requires a different type of skill. e.g you might be better at trading than me but I might end up making 5 times the money you make. That's what separate the good from the great. Soros is simply Soros, not because he is the smartest trader but because he is the boldest.

Be who you are many traders have ruined their careers because of trying to do what they weren't mentally and emotionally built for. My advice work at three jobs if you can and save for your capital.
Special one
  • #47
  • Edited 9:17pm Mar 17, 2017 9:03pm | Edited 9:17pm
Quoting KeenPips
Get a job and trade part time. You do far better in trading if you don't have to trade to survive. Trade safe and prosper. KP {quote}
Totally agree with this. It's what I do. I only work 3 days and will only quit when I get to a level where a bad week would still provide enough to pay the bills.

i want enough of my own funds to live comfortably - I don't want the pressure of trading other people's money and trying to get sufficient returns for them.
  • #48
  • Mar 17, 2017 10:37pm Mar 17, 2017 10:37pm
I'm just starting to read through your post and all the comments. Interesting... and you have my respect for being so open about this. I may have more to say when I'm done reading all the responses, but for now I'll just say something I noticed while skimming over your TradeExplorer. I may get slapped upside the head by some of the people here, but I'm gonna say it anyway: Based on your account size, I think your trade sizes are usually WAY TOO SMALL. In other words, even though it's drilled into us to "keep our risk low".... I think yours is TOO low.
  • #49
  • Mar 17, 2017 10:43pm Mar 17, 2017 10:43pm
Quoting oztrader79
{quote} Totally agree with this. It's what I do. I only work 3 days and will only quit when I get to a level where a bad week would still provide enough to pay the bills. i want enough of my own funds to live comfortably - I don't want the pressure of trading other people's money and trying to get sufficient returns for them.
in starting time to learn all as a trader having a job with a good income is no bad idea. after some stable income is coming with trading each month (of course not with martingale or without any Sl trading or other funny beginner strategies - then the best is never ever stop your business job) its possible to switch as fulltime trader complete or more and more. of course the income from trading should be higher then the job income, or the risk is it not worth.

but all depends in the time frame you trade. if you trade the weekly, daily ...charts then you can have many jobs same time and have still good results, and you dont earn less then most daytraders. if you want trade the smaller timesframes you can often do so only when you dont work of course. but in some jobs(like webdesigner, programmer, ..) you can also change your working time to no tradings times.
  • #50
  • Mar 17, 2017 10:45pm Mar 17, 2017 10:45pm
Quoting Ratmach
I'm just starting to read through your post and all the comments. Interesting... and you have my respect for being so open about this. I may have more to say when I'm done reading all the responses, but for now I'll just say something I noticed while skimming over your TradeExplorer. I may get slapped upside the head by some of the people here, but I'm gonna say it anyway: Based on your account size, I think your trade sizes are usually WAY TOO SMALL. In other words, even though it's drilled into us to "keep our risk low".... I think yours is TOO...
he had until 50 % drawdown and you want him to increase his trading amount? really?
  • #51
  • Mar 17, 2017 10:56pm Mar 17, 2017 10:56pm
The only way to make a living is if you know exactly how to make money from trading.
99.99% have no clue how to do it, their method and skill suck.

I doubt that you are consistently profitable.
Otherwise you would trade your own account and grow it instead of asking here noobs for their advice.

And yes, almost all PAMM accounts are BS and scams - or some kind of stupid martingale sh*t.
And TST isn't trustworthy either.

My advice:
if you are really good, be your own boss.
  • #52
  • Mar 17, 2017 11:09pm Mar 17, 2017 11:09pm
Quoting dukas_trader
{quote} he had until 50 % drawdown and you want him to increase his trading amount? really?
trade explorers don't always tell the whole story (maybe in this case it does), for example I only keep rough 1/3 of real trading funds with my broker, just in case of a black swan event or something and my broker goes under (don't want me entire investment in one place). The result is that the trade explorer can show higher return and drawdown because it is based of the balance of the account, not your real trading equity. (But in this case, if that's all he has and the trade explorer is true, I agree with your point!)
  • #53
  • Mar 17, 2017 11:14pm Mar 17, 2017 11:14pm
Really to be a successful trader I think you need to forge your own path, sorting through good and bad advice is difficult but experience slowly gives you the confidence to embark on your own way - regardless of what anyone says. When you start doing this, this is really the beginning to the path of success . But to the OP I would say if lack of capital is your problem and you can't create enough while paying your bills, you need a second job until you have sufficient capital. Lack of capital is what kills people's fledgling trading careers'.
  • #54
  • Mar 17, 2017 11:47pm Mar 17, 2017 11:47pm
Quoting oztrader79
{quote} trade explorers don't always tell the whole story (maybe in this case it does), for example I only keep rough 1/3 of real trading funds with my broker, just in case of a black swan event or something and my broker goes under (don't want me entire investment in one place). The result is that the trade explorer can show higher return and drawdown because it is based of the balance of the account, not your real trading equity. (But in this case, if that's all he has and the trade explorer is true, I agree with your point!)
thats 100% true. you need always calculate whole money you have in your return percentage calculation for wins and drawdown. only beginners do it different way and start getting wrong results by this. but when you really want manage money, you need to trade like its all the money the people have (often its this way).
so calculating in PAMM as full amount for win and drawdown is just fine.

but its not so easy to be save with your method against black swan events like big weekend gap, flash crash, extrem fast news and no possible volume in market to get out,....... if you trade only small accounts you can maybe get a broker who dont let you pay for minus balances in your account. but this broker only do so when there are possibilities they charge clients to get money on other sides. so bigger accounts or most brokers dont have this, so you need to pay with your money holded back again. so it would be same like having all money inside the broker and traded same amount.

ok, the point broker goes under is possible, but you can look for a big one, or just use bank guarantee with this broker from a bank you trust. in europe for most traders the 100k guarantee by security fund will be enough per client per broker (if a broker uses this security fund or have to use by law).
  • #55
  • Mar 18, 2017 12:15am Mar 18, 2017 12:15am
Quoting albypaul
Hello All My Name Is Albert Poulis and i just wanted to say hi.
You probably picked the wrong thread for you post, to get much of a response.

That said, welcome. Question - if you are trading an RSI crossover ie 6 and 14, what do you need all the RSI lines in the middle for?
Good Trading
  • #56
  • Mar 18, 2017 12:56am Mar 18, 2017 12:56am
Quoting CrucialPoint
Making 100% and more a year consistently in trading is nothing really extraordinary.
I'd go further.... I'd say that unless you start out with $20K or much more, if you plan to only make 100% per year it's not even worth your time. (100% of $50K is $50K... so that's nice. 100% of $20K is, well that's okay too I guess. But 100% of $5K is $5K... hmm... for a whole year's work? 100% of $1K is.... just... NOPE)

I really could never understand anyone who is satisfied with 20% (or 30% or even 100%) per year. It makes me wonder if they've ever calculated how much they plan/hope to make PER DAY. I'm sure most people have done the little spreadsheet "Look how fast I can get rich!" tango. "If only I can make X% per day (or week or month) then I will have $XXX in no time!" Yeah, it's fun... and VERY impressive. And of course it's possible to make 20% per day for a few days.... maybe more, and maybe for several days in a row. But before long it inevitably comes crashing down. So I'm not arguing with the people who say THAT kind of consistent profit is unrealistic. (No, it's not impossible, just very, very unlikely, depending a whole lot on luck.)

On the other hand, it seems to me that some people are being unrealistic from the opposite perspective: They've been told for so long that "consistent profits" are nearly impossible, and so they set their goals way TOO LOW. "I could NEVER make 20% day for any length of time." You're probably right. But how about 10%? No, probably still a stretch. Even 5%... still too ambitious? Okay, let's try this:

Let's say your goal is.... a whole ONE PERCENT per day. Yes, I'm saying that if you have an account balance at the start of the day of $100, you want to end the day at $101. You think you can do that? And the next day? And once you've reached $150 balance, then your goal is a whole $1.50 a day. Think about this. If you don't even have enough confidence to think you can do THAT... well, I'm not sure the point of trading at all. Where is the FUN (among other emotions) in this? And you want to see what that measly 1% per day adds up to? If you started out a year ago with $100, you'd have around $1,400 by the end of the year. No, that's still not much money, but that's not my point. The point is to do the math and calculate what PERCENTAGE you've gained in that year. That's right... WAY OVER 1,000%.

So NOW how minuscule does that theoretical 100% per year look?! Now let's do a really crazy calculation: In order to gain only 100% per you'd need to gain about.... get ready.... ONE-QUARTER OF ONE PERCENT PER DAY. For an account of $100, you need to make just over 25 cents PER DAY. And by the end of the year, as your account approaches that magical $200 (100% gain) you'd need to make about 50 cents PER DAY. Go ahead, do all the math you want. Start out with $1,000 instead of $100... but remember, you're satisfied with a gain of only 100% at the end of the year. Start with $1,000 and end with $2,000... even by the end of the year, your DAILY GOAL will be about... FIVE DOLLARS PER DAY.

So yeah, this was my long-winded way of saying I agree with you 100% that aiming TOO low (like 100% per year) can be just as harmful as aiming too high. Well that is unless you're STARTING with like $50K or more in your account... and even then...
  • #57
  • Mar 18, 2017 12:59am Mar 18, 2017 12:59am
Quoting Ratmach
I think your trade sizes are usually WAY TOO SMALL. In other words, even though it's drilled into us to "keep our risk low".... I think yours is TOO low.
Just to be clear to everyone else reading this as well -- There are a lot of 1 Lot trades on the trade explorer. But did you notice that there are sometimes like 13 or 15 of them open at the same time?

So at 130 bucks a pip on just under a 10k account is about "75 pips = 100% of Balance".

The risk is high. It is so high that it is hard to hold onto. The trade goes just a few pips against the entry and it hurts. Just 10 pips drawdown and I'm ready to close it all as soon as I see Breakeven +1.

But a lot of the times, we had the direction right and sometimes the only reason the market even lets me out at breakeven is because it has decided to go my way. A nice big account doubling move higher....Mmmmmmm.

The only problem is I closed with +3 pips out of fear and the market went 60 more pips without me.

But the next time will be different. I will probably hold onto a less favorable trade because of the need to hold on. But if I hold onto a bad trade it is gonna be an account buster in the worst way. You don't want that.

So now you know I have to position myself always to be in only what I can handle without blowing up and without missing all the good moves.

Welcome.
  • #58
  • Mar 18, 2017 1:35am Mar 18, 2017 1:35am
Quoting albypaul
Hello All My Name Is Albert Poulis and i just wanted to say hi.
Hi Albert, welcome to FF. Your method looks good to me.

I keep coming back to RSI myself sooooo
"You know what needs to be addressed , completely completely reverse that".
  • #59
  • Mar 18, 2017 1:40am Mar 18, 2017 1:40am
Quoting dukas_trader
{quote} he had until 50 % drawdown and you want him to increase his trading amount? really?
From looking at his TE, it seems that most of those big drawdowns came on trades he kept open for a LONG time. The question is, did they immediately, within the first few minutes/hours go that far underwater, or did they slowly but surely tank? So I guess my scalper bias is showing, huh? If you're willing to get out of a bad trade quickly (which I admit I don't ALWAYS practice what I preach), then the drawdown issue isn't as important. Large trade size combined with short trade time means a "bad" trade is usually manageable. Conversely, small trade size combined with long trade time is also usually okay. For me, at least, the one that kills me is when I hang onto a LARGE bad trade for a LONG period of time. So in that regard, I agree with you.
  • #60
  • Mar 18, 2017 1:54am Mar 18, 2017 1:54am
Quoting Price
{quote} Just to be clear to everyone else reading this as well -- There are a lot of 1 Lot trades on the trade explorer. But did you notice that there are sometimes like 13 or 15 of them open at the same time?
Actually no, I didn't notice that at all. I admit I didn't look closely to see how many trades were open at once. But as for the size, I saw a whole bunch of tiny "micro lot" trades (.01 lot)... unless I'm interpreting the numbers wrong. If so then yeah, you may be right about him already risking too much... so thanks for pointing that out to me.
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