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  • #1,861
  • Feb 6, 2017 4:09am Feb 6, 2017 4:09am
Quoting Ross88
{quote} ok I now know where you are coming I have been previously told that it's illegal to cover your face in public in the UK and in fact it's not (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-mask_laws) so much of my argument is invalid but if you had a small percentage of the local population (white men) that were regular covering their face's and going out in public I think people would not have a problem with saying no that's illegal now as we have a new law but because British society has not had this problem before we do not have a law to enforce...

In my view the problem is allowing anyone into the country who has a different culture. When you do that you effectively dilute your own culture of liberty and democracy, and every round of dilutions brings the end of democracy and freedom that smidgen closer. Enacting legislation that is deemed to alienate the community very often makes any problems, perceived or otherwise, worse. Enacting repressive legislation, is truly a last resort.

You mentioned Irish terrorism. Irish terrorism was a considerably bigger problem in this country than Islamic terrorism. The PIRA had the capacity and the organisation to set off many bombs in one day, Belfast witnessed over 20 bombs on 21st July 1972 for example. What the British found early on when dealing with the PIRA, was that measures to control the PIRA, through legislation such as internment of known terrorists, and the Falls curfew, or even killing terrorists directly, had the direct opposite impact on reducing terrorism.

Every single 'mistake' was used instead by the PIRA to drive massive recruitment into the PIRA fueling the terrorist campaign for another generation. Even single mistake of the British became a propaganda tool for the terrorist, one which they exploited with great skill, to paint the British as the oppressor to the Irish people - when in reality it was the PIRA who were the facists. The British realised that the only way to defeat it Irish terrorism, was to wait it out, to infiltrate the terrorist, to sideline the hawks and to promote through their agents of influence the moderates.

If you ban the burqa, you hand a propaganda victory to the radical Islamists preachers living in Britain, who can then cry discrimination and pollute the minds of the would be moderates. Irish terrorism should, and will guide British policy on this issue.
  • #1,862
  • Feb 6, 2017 4:11am Feb 6, 2017 4:11am
Quoting Devauxt
{quote} I agree with the first part of what you say, but on the subject of the burqa I disagree. To me, the burqa is a symbol of the subjugation and the disenfranchisement of women, which in is alien to our society. It flies in the face of our core beliefs
You may believe that, you may be right, but you surely do not speak for all Muslim women some of whom I suspect are very devout to their faith.

An item of clothing is only repressive if the other person is forced to wear it.
  • #1,863
  • Feb 6, 2017 4:26am Feb 6, 2017 4:26am
Quoting Toranaga
{quote} Ok. So lets suppose you are a car dealer or working somewhere in a Government office.. Would you like to deal / sign a contract with one of this 5 beauties ?? Or have your neighborhood full of this batman's sisters. Me not, the American right to choose what they wear or not. the middle age is over and out. And thats fine. !! {image}
That one 2nd on the right. Is that John Simpson?
Carbon-Dioxide: the gas of life! https://youtu.be/ttJBdr6eBuo
  • #1,864
  • Feb 6, 2017 4:33am Feb 6, 2017 4:33am
Quoting verv
{quote} You may believe that, you may be right, but you surely do not speak for all Muslim women some of whom I suspect are very devout to their faith. An item of clothing is only repressive if the other person is forced to wear it.
MY issue is that is the outward and unacceptable symbol of repression. What about those who are forced to wear such garments, how do you protect those women? As I understand it, this garment is more cultural than a tenet of the faith. There is no mention of Burqa in the Quran
  • #1,865
  • Feb 6, 2017 4:39am Feb 6, 2017 4:39am
Quoting Devauxt
{quote} MY issue is that is the outward and unacceptable symbol of repression. What about those who are forced to wear such garments, how do you protect those women? As I understand it, this garment is more cultural than a tenet of the faith. There is no mention of Burqa in the Quran
You protect those women under the law, because the force someone to wear a burqa would require the threat, or use of force by another person and that is illegal. Banning the burqa would also prevent women who wanted to wear the burqa, and I'm sure there are some, from wearing it. You might find it as a symbol of oppression, I might find it as a symbol of oppression, but you don't get rid of symbol of oppression by enacting repressive legislation.
  • #1,866
  • Feb 6, 2017 4:46am Feb 6, 2017 4:46am
Wow! Somebody lit a fire in this thread, and I was busy with family birthday stuff.....

Quoting verv
{quote} what you are advocating is discrimination of people who wear a burqa. Are you ok with that? ....
I have no problem with burkas, nor burkinis ... which are reminiscent of Victorian beach-wear and definitely useful for people with sensitive skins.

I similarly expect to be able to walk down the street wearing a balaclava, the wind is freezing these days!
Now that my hair is near-absent I might also wear a hoody.
At which point I would remind you that Tony blood-on-his-hands Blair wanted to outlaw people wearing a hoody in public places such as the High Street. A shame because they look nice in khaki, especially the ones with additional nondescript black shapes.

Quoting jen101
{quote} I've seen it with my own eyes. Women changing into their burquas on cross channel ferries as soon as they cross into UK waters. You don't see that as taking the piss? They happily wear normal clothes in France. I did say that I felt safer in France. Am I not entitled to an opinion?
On a BA flight from Dhahran a few years ago, a few minutes after take-off three black tents got up and went to the loo-area, 5 minutes later 3 attractive young ladies wearing tight fitting jeans and the usual western presentation returned to their seats.
Carbon-Dioxide: the gas of life! https://youtu.be/ttJBdr6eBuo
  • #1,867
  • Feb 6, 2017 4:50am Feb 6, 2017 4:50am
Quoting verv
{quote} You protect those women under the law, because the force someone to wear a burqa would require the threat, or use of force by another person and that is illegal. Banning the burqa would also prevent women who wanted to wear the burqa, and I'm sure there are some, from wearing it. You might find it as a symbol of oppression, I might find it as a symbol of oppression, but you don't get rid of symbol of oppression by enacting repressive legislation.
What you suggest would be impossible to police as those who are repressed do so out of fear. They are unlikely to report such crimes themselves
  • #1,868
  • Feb 6, 2017 4:51am Feb 6, 2017 4:51am
Quoting Devauxt
.... There is no mention of Burqa in the Quran
I believe there is mention of women covering their hair, but it is a while since I looked at the Quran and I would have to go back and check.
Carbon-Dioxide: the gas of life! https://youtu.be/ttJBdr6eBuo
  • #1,869
  • Feb 6, 2017 5:00am Feb 6, 2017 5:00am
Quoting Devauxt
{quote} What you suggest would be impossible to police as those who are repressed do so out of fear. They are unlikely to report such crimes themselves
Even if you made the burqa illegal, they could still be forced to wear it in private, at which point people may still not report a crime anyway. A public ban doesn't even do anything about these issues.

In order to enforce a burqa ban both public and private, and weed out such behaviour of forcing people to wear an item of clothing, the police would have to go into neighborhoods and knock on doors. That would be just great for community relations, and for the tax payer.

I don't like the burqa either, but I'm not going to tell others not to wear it. The law is adequate as it stands right now, if a person doesn't want to wear a burqa, they don't have to and the law will defend them.

I don't know that my view is correct, but what I am sure of is that there is no easy fix, and I'm seeing a whole lot of people who have not even contemplated the many difficult issues which I alone have raised.
  • #1,870
  • Feb 6, 2017 5:09am Feb 6, 2017 5:09am
Quoting Exodus
Wow! Somebody lit a fire in this thread, and I was busy with family birthday stuff..... {quote}I have no problem with burkas, nor burkinis ... which are reminiscent of Victorian beach-wear and definitely useful for people with sensitive skins. I similarly expect to be able to walk down the street wearing a balaclava, the wind is freezing these days! Now that my hair is near-absent I might also wear a hoody. At which point I would remind you that Tony blood-on-his-hands Blair wanted to outlaw people wearing a hoody in public places such as...
Tony Blair, what a great guy.

Misleading parliament, unfettered and poorly vetted immigration, telling people what they can and cannot wear.
  • #1,871
  • Feb 6, 2017 5:29am Feb 6, 2017 5:29am
Quoting verv
{quote} In my view the problem is allowing anyone into the country who has a different culture. When you do that you effectively dilute your own culture of liberty and democracy, and every round of dilutions brings the end of democracy and freedom that smidgen closer. Enacting legislation that is deemed to alienate the community very often makes any problems, perceived or otherwise, worse. Enacting repressive legislation, is truly a last resort. You mentioned Irish terrorism. Irish terrorism was a considerably bigger problem in this country than...
Q,In my view the problem is allowing anyone into the country who has a different culture. When you do that you effectively dilute your own culture of liberty and democracy, and every round of dilutions brings the end of democracy and freedom that smidgen closer. Enacting legislation that is deemed to alienate the community very often makes any problems, perceived or otherwise, worse. Enacting repressive legislation, is truly a last resort.
it's impossible to make sure every person coming to the UK has our culture so this idea is a bit of a fantasy and it dose not dilute our culture to say to people when they are here to do as we do and not have your face out in public as jen said they do not need to fear being rape here. this is not a idea to alienate a community I have lived with this community and I can tell you it will help community relations I went into this in a early post also it's a rule I would like to see enforced on everyone me included you. do you not agree if it was fashionable for young white men to go out with their face cover that it would have become illegal remember Tony Blair it's not a race issue policy I don't want anyone walking around my town with their face covered


Q,You mentioned Irish terrorism. Irish terrorism was a considerably bigger problem in this country than Islamic terrorism. The PIRA had the capacity and the organisation to set off many bombs in one day, Belfast witnessed over 20 bombs on 21st July 1972 for example. What the British found early on when dealing with the PIRA, was that measures to control the PIRA, through legislation such as internment of known terrorists, and the Falls curfew, or even killing terrorists directly, had the direct opposite impact on reducing terrorism.
I know a bit about Irish terrorism most of my family are from Ireland and my girlfriends dad is from Northern Ireland I was using this as a example to show it's not a race base policy in my opinion and you have to acknowledge it is easier now day's to do a reconnaissance mission for a terrorist attack with the burka now more commonly seen it's clearly a security risk weather it's a Muslin terrorist attack or someone else

Q, If you ban the burqa, you hand a propaganda victory to the radical Islamists preachers living in Britain, who can then cry discrimination and pollute the minds of the would be moderates. Irish terrorism should, and will guide British policy on this issue
I do not care about a propaganda victory I care about living a peaceful life and if a group say they are going to attack me for saying show your face in public then war it is. how much longer do you think Europeans will be attacked for without a large scale fight back?? how long till lot's of terminally ill non-Muslin just say fuck this??
  • #1,872
  • Feb 6, 2017 5:32am Feb 6, 2017 5:32am
Quoting verv
Burka 3 country-01.png;2172765 I think like an American, I also believe that it is their right to choose what they wear - outside of courts etc The idea that government can tell people what cloths to wear is ridiculous. {image}

"When In Rome" springs to mind Verv. If one craves the symbols of their culture then return to the birthplace regardless of it's issues, if the bond is so great you remain and fight for it but if you leave for pastures new don't carry it with you and expect the western world to accommodate you.

Western lady wearing bikini in Saudi Arabia. I don't think so.
Once You See, You Can't Unsee But You Will Get The Odd Poke In The Eye
  • #1,873
  • Feb 6, 2017 5:42am Feb 6, 2017 5:42am
Quoting Stu Effex
{quote} "When In Rome" springs to mind Verv. If one craves the symbols of their culture then return to the birthplace regardless of it's issues, if the bond is so great you remain and fight for it but if you leave for pastures new don't carry it with you and expect the western world to accommodate you. Western lady wearing bikini in Saudi Arabia. I don't think so.
I totally agree with living according to our laws, otherwise don't come. Part of those laws are freedom of expression, to wear generally what you want to wear. Of those who don't believe in Western values, many are second generation, born and bred in Britain.
  • #1,874
  • Edited 6:21am Feb 6, 2017 5:53am | Edited 6:21am
Quote
it's impossible to make sure every person coming to the UK has our culture so this idea is a bit of a fantasy and it dose not dilute our culture to say to people when they are here to do as we do and not have your face out in public as jen said they do not need to fear being rape here. this is not a idea to alienate a community I have lived with this community and I can tell you it will help community relations I went into this in a early post also it's a rule I would like to see enforced on everyone me included you. do you not agree if it was fashionable...

The issue is with a burqa ban... I've never seen a white male wearing a burqa. I have only ever seen a muslim woman wearing a burqa.

If you want a wholesale ban on any kind of clothing covering the full face that is somewhat different, yes.

Quote
I know a bit about Irish terrorism most of my family are from Ireland and my girlfriends dad is from Northern Ireland I was using this as a example to show it's not a race base policy in my opinion and you have to acknowledge it is easier now day's to do a reconnaissance mission for a terrorist attack with the burka now more commonly seen it's clearly a security risk weather it's a Muslin terrorist attack or someone else

Nobody said it was a race policy. It is about a culture that people don't like.

Quote
I do not care about a propaganda victory I care about living a peaceful life and if a group say they are going to attack me for saying show your face in public then war it is. how much longer do you think Europeans will be attacked for without a large scale fight back?? how long till lot's of terminally ill non-Muslin just say fuck this??

Except it is not clear to me that it is necessary for a ban on people showing their face in public in the first place. And if people were to attack you for a ban the burqa, you would be within your rights to defend yourself.

But this isn't what we are talking about, nobody is arguing you cannot defend yourself. So why bring it up?
  • #1,875
  • Feb 6, 2017 6:24am Feb 6, 2017 6:24am
Quoting verv
{quote} I totally agree with living according to our laws, otherwise don't come. Part of those laws are freedom of expression, to wear generally what you want to wear. Of those who don't believe in Western values, many are second generation, born and bred in Britain.
Yes exactly and it is not a western tradition to wander round peering through a letter box style garment unless in the midst of an icy winter. You do know what I mean and we all have a grasp on what is happening. Once the balance is tipped the true enrichment of multiculturalsim be be revealed and the loony left enablers will likely be first on the chopping block. In my opinion there is no place for Islam in UK. Once the figures are such that we are outnumbered, the myth of diversity and enrichment will melt quicker than an ice cube down a builder's crack !
Once You See, You Can't Unsee But You Will Get The Odd Poke In The Eye
  • #1,876
  • Feb 6, 2017 6:28am Feb 6, 2017 6:28am
Quoting verv
... I've never seen a white male wearing a burqa....
A renowned news reporter wore a Burka in Afghanistan. It is amazing that he got away with it, but it was the only way for a 'white male' to snoop around with a lesser risk of being shot. The clip I saw was totally laughable. A six-foot man wearing what looked like a pair of DMs almost totally covered by a Burka. I guess he was in the biggest one that could be found, ground clearance about 4 inches hence view of the DMs (from a way off).

Kudos, John!
Carbon-Dioxide: the gas of life! https://youtu.be/ttJBdr6eBuo
  • #1,877
  • Feb 6, 2017 6:47am Feb 6, 2017 6:47am
Quoting Exodus
{quote} A renowned news reporter wore a Burka in Afghanistan. It is amazing that he got away with it, but it was the only way for a 'white male' to snoop around with a lesser risk of being shot. The clip I saw was totally laughable. A six-foot man wearing what looked like a pair of DMs almost totally covered by a Burka. I guess he was in the biggest one that could be found, ground clearance about 4 inches hence view of the DMs (from a way off). Kudos, John!
Where they Cherry Reds ?
Once You See, You Can't Unsee But You Will Get The Odd Poke In The Eye
  • #1,878
  • Feb 6, 2017 7:31am Feb 6, 2017 7:31am
Quoting verv
{quote} The issue is with a burqa ban... I've never seen a white male wearing a burqa. I have only ever seen a muslim woman wearing a burqa. If you want a wholesale ban on any kind of clothing covering the full face that is somewhat different, yes. {quote} Nobody said it was a race policy. It is about a culture that people don't like. {quote} Except it is not clear to me that it is necessary for a ban on people showing their face in public in the first place. And if people were to attack you for a ban the burqa, you would be within your rights to...
Q,The issue is with a burqa ban... I've never seen a white male wearing a burqa. I have only ever seen a muslim woman wearing a burqa.
it's comments like this that make me think you have little or no experience what your talking about how would you know who's wearing one of them also most of the time the women are wearing gloves so it's unlikely you would ever know their ethnicity

Q,I have only ever seen a muslim woman wearing a burqa
this is a big presumption how would you know?? it is so easy to abuse people thinking everyone has good intention

Q,If you want a wholesale ban on any kind of clothing covering the full face that is somewhat different
yes I had been told that it was illegal to be out in public with your face covered and now know that it's not part of the law am saying it should be illegal to leave your home with your face covered and feel if it was a fashionable thing to do in the 1950's it would now be illegal to do so in the UK

Q,Nobody said it was a race policy. It is about a culture that people don't like.
you know as well as I do that people in the UK/Europe get called racist for agree with the burqa ban

Q,Except it is not clear to me that it is necessary for a ban on people showing their face in public in the first place. And if people were to attack you for a ban the burqa, you would be within your rights to defend yourself.
But this isn't what we are talking about, nobody is arguing you cannot defend yourself. So why bring it up?
I think it's necessary to ban face covering for public safety if you do not want to acknowledge this that up to you but over the next 10 years I think it will save lives. I bring up being attack because you keep implying that it may make more potential terrorist if we ban the burqa and if this make's someone turn down that path in life they do not deserve to live in the UK in my opinion
  • #1,879
  • Feb 6, 2017 7:33am Feb 6, 2017 7:33am
Quoting Stu Effex
{quote} Where they Cherry Reds ?

No
They were black and dusty!
Carbon-Dioxide: the gas of life! https://youtu.be/ttJBdr6eBuo
  • #1,880
  • Feb 6, 2017 7:53am Feb 6, 2017 7:53am
Quoting Exodus
{quote} No They were black and dusty!
Ah so the yellow laces didn't even stand out
Once You See, You Can't Unsee But You Will Get The Odd Poke In The Eye
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