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The Rabbit Hole

  • #1,821
  • Feb 3, 2017 12:55pm Feb 3, 2017 12:55pm
Quoting Exodus
{quote} Nice Seems that Mick has been able to afford a bigger drum-kit lately
The more successful, the more toms you need
Once You See, You Can't Unsee But You Will Get The Odd Poke In The Eye
  • #1,822
  • Feb 3, 2017 1:01pm Feb 3, 2017 1:01pm
Quoting jen101
{quote} Hey you play what you like; I don't have to press play! https://youtu.be/O480-y__vm4 You know the line "Don't go wasting your emotions?" My 5 year old thought it was "don't go wasting your mushrooms," so that's what she sings!
Ha ha good on her !. I am old rocker can't change habit of a lifetime, still have 30 year old wrangler shirts, just can't bare to part with them

but .................................. who doesn't love a bit of Abba too !

https://youtu.be/fDKwO3__Qqw?list=PL0yz7zAU7XVzW9cNpy4DTs9PSYS4iJTZb

Once You See, You Can't Unsee But You Will Get The Odd Poke In The Eye
  • #1,823
  • Feb 3, 2017 1:14pm Feb 3, 2017 1:14pm
If ya want something a little more current perhaps a bit of BRITNEY

https://youtu.be/qYr9kIyambE?list=PL0yz7zAU7XVzW9cNpy4DTs9PSYS4iJTZb
Once You See, You Can't Unsee But You Will Get The Odd Poke In The Eye
  • #1,824
  • Feb 3, 2017 2:23pm Feb 3, 2017 2:23pm
Quoting Stu Effex
If ya want something a little more current perhaps a bit of BRITNEY https://youtu.be/qYr9kIyambE?list=PL0yz7zAU7XVzW9cNpy4DTs9PSYS4iJTZb
Who's that twat? It is only worth a piss take though. Britney is utterly classless.

Something for the weekend. More my thing.
https://youtu.be/Pv0PAchVGCw
  • #1,825
  • Feb 3, 2017 2:43pm Feb 3, 2017 2:43pm
Quoting jen101
{quote} Who's that twat? It is only worth a piss take though. Britney is utterly classless. Something for the weekend. More my thing. https://youtu.be/Pv0PAchVGCw
Men of my age have an allergic reaction to En.....reeky !

Have A Good Weekend Folks

https://youtu.be/Lo2qQmj0_h4
Once You See, You Can't Unsee But You Will Get The Odd Poke In The Eye
  • #1,826
  • Feb 3, 2017 2:52pm Feb 3, 2017 2:52pm
I think DEV has clocked off now. 10/10 for effort he is relentless, a true Terrier

Attached Image
Once You See, You Can't Unsee But You Will Get The Odd Poke In The Eye
  • #1,827
  • Feb 3, 2017 3:14pm Feb 3, 2017 3:14pm
Quoting Stu Effex
{quote} Men of my age have an allergic reaction to En.....reeky ! Have A Good Weekend Folks https://youtu.be/Lo2qQmj0_h4
That was back in 1998!!
Maybe this then?
https://youtu.be/MlVw6eGpY5g
  • #1,828
  • Feb 3, 2017 3:53pm Feb 3, 2017 3:53pm
Quoting jen101
{quote} That was back in 1998!! Maybe this then? https://youtu.be/MlVw6eGpY5g
Well I can't find the vomit emoticon then I remembered that's on skype

Maybe we can agree on this one ? Sharleen great song too.

https://youtu.be/gcet5kQMDGA

Catch Ya Next Week
Once You See, You Can't Unsee But You Will Get The Odd Poke In The Eye
  • #1,829
  • Feb 3, 2017 4:23pm Feb 3, 2017 4:23pm
Quoting Stu Effex
{quote} Well I can't find the vomit emoticon then I remembered that's on skype Maybe we can agree on this one ? Sharleen great song too. https://youtu.be/gcet5kQMDGA Catch Ya Next Week
Comme ci, comme ça...

Just for you then...... Enrique classic! Good night!
https://youtu.be/C6oIREl0aIE
  • #1,830
  • Feb 4, 2017 3:14pm Feb 4, 2017 3:14pm
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: Burka 3 country-01.png Size: 55 KB


I think like an American, I also believe that it is their right to choose what they wear - outside of courts etc

The idea that government can tell people what cloths to wear is ridiculous.
  • #1,831
  • Feb 4, 2017 4:29pm Feb 4, 2017 4:29pm
Quoting verv
Burka 3 country-01.png;2172765 I think like an American, I also believe that it is their right to choose what they wear - outside of courts etc The idea that government can tell people what cloths to wear is ridiculous. {image}
There's is a lot more to the burqa than an item of clothing. It is a statement to say that they have no respect for Western culture or laws, to say that they are different and have no intention of integrating. It is a statement that they support all the ways of their barbaric and suppressive culture and that they are insistent on bringing that culture to our shores. Above all, it is threatening. The French are right to ban it. When in France, first and foremost, you respect the secularism and the French ways. It's a shame that here we are so bullied by the dangerous left, we'd be making excuses for these Muslims even if they waved machetes in our faces.
  • #1,832
  • Feb 4, 2017 5:50pm Feb 4, 2017 5:50pm
Quoting jen101
{quote} There's is a lot more to the burqa than an item of clothing. It is a statement to say that they have no respect for Western culture or laws, to say that they are different and have no intention of integrating. It is a statement that they support all the ways of their barbaric and suppressive culture and that they are insistent on bringing that culture to our shores. Above all, it is threatening. The French are right to ban it. When in France, first and foremost, you respect the secularism and the French ways. It's a shame that here we are...
Whilst I agree with some of the things you said there is also a contradiction.

You said they must "respect the secularism" but then you say the "French are right to ban it". A secular society that bans people from wearing the clothes of their choosing? - that doesn't sound very 'secular'.

Is it right to introduce regressive legislation that prevents a person from wearing certain clothes? And would that amount to discrimination against Muslims that already have rights as a British citizenship in this country?

I'm not very comfortable with the idea of restricting the liberty of anyone provided their behaviour doesn't restrict mine or anyone else. What is dangerous about your line of thinking is that you appear happy to justify the denial of other peoples liberty because you feel threatened.

It's not that I don't understand your argument, but it is right to have a discussion of how far down the rabbit hole government goes when it gets to tell a certain group of people what they can and cannot wear.
  • #1,833
  • Feb 4, 2017 6:20pm Feb 4, 2017 6:20pm
Quoting verv
{quote} Whilst I agree with some of the things you said there is also a contradiction. You said they must "respect the secularism" but then you say the "French are right to ban it". A secular society that bans people from wearing the clothes of their choosing? - that doesn't sound very 'secular'. Is it right to introduce regressive legislation that prevents a person from wearing certain clothes? And would that amount to discrimination against Muslims that already have rights as a British citizenship in this country? I'm not very comfortable with...
imagine your in your local bank a guy walk's in wearing full leathers and a motorcycle helmet full face covered dose he have the right to do that or are you denying him his liberty to say let everyone here see your face it's not denying him his liberty to ask this and it's not denying a Muslim women her liberty to do the same thing why are you giving her extra liberty turning her into a protected class because every men in the country is expected to show their face if they go into a bank or to collect children from school or use public transport or even just walk down the street so why do you think Muslim women can do these things when no one else can??
  • #1,834
  • Feb 4, 2017 6:42pm Feb 4, 2017 6:42pm
Quoting verv
Burka 3 country-01.png;2172765 I think like an American, I also believe that it is their right to choose what they wear - outside of courts etc The idea that government can tell people what cloths to wear is ridiculous. {image}
Ok. So lets suppose you are a car dealer or working somewhere in a Government office..

Would you like to deal / sign a contract with one of this 5 beauties ??

Or have your neighborhood full of this batman's sisters.
Me not, the American right to choose what they wear or not.

the middle age is over and out.

And thats fine.

!!
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: burka1.jpg Size: 88 KB
How to opt out annoying user signatures ??
  • #1,835
  • Edited 7:06pm Feb 4, 2017 6:51pm | Edited 7:06pm
Quoting Ross88
{quote} imagine your in your local bank a guy walk's in wearing full leathers and a motorcycle helmet full face covered dose he have the right to do that or are you denying him his liberty to say let everyone here see your face it's not denying him his liberty to ask this and it's not denying a Muslim women her liberty to do the same thing why are you giving her extra liberty turning her into a protected class because every men in the country is expected to show their face if they go into a bank or to collect children from school or use public transport...

I think we need to properly define the argument. Your example isn't a useful comparison Ross, I don't think anyone is arguing for preferentially treatment of Muslim women. In fact that's the exact opposite of what is being discussion.

What is is being discussed is whether or not it is ok that government should restrict the ability of people to wear clothing of their choosing. There are obvious reasons why in some situations people must have their faces shown - courts and passports, banks potentially as well. That however doesn't require a complete ban on the burqa, or indeed a ban at all.

Clearly there are consequences for the nature of our government and the rights of citizens when you ban certain behaviours, such as choice of clothes, even when no law has been broken and nobody else's rights have been infringed upon.

I don't think people are giving the required thought to where this leads. So you have a ban because you feel threatened, but does that make certain people in some ways second class citizens? What else should we ban because you feel threatened, should we ban political points of view because we feel threatened by people with a different opinion than ours also?

What's worrying is Im not finding anyone proposing a burqa ban thinking about the unintended consequences. You don't make these types of decisions with your eyes closed, you need a discussion on where it leads and if the inevitable compromises are worth it.
  • #1,836
  • Feb 4, 2017 6:55pm Feb 4, 2017 6:55pm
Quoting Toranaga
{quote} Ok. So lets suppose you are a car dealer or working somewhere in a Government office.. Would you like to deal / sign a contract with one of this 5 beauties ?? Or have your neighborhood full of this batman's sisters. Me not, the American right to choose what they wear or not. the middle age is over and out. And thats fine. !! {image}
Again let's define the argument, because we aren't arguing the same thing. Language is to be used with precision and we are talking about a burqa ban - you don't need to ban the burqa to have someone show their face at a passport office, or a court, or to sign for a car at a dealership.

Its important to actually discuss what is being proposed, i.e banning the burqa. Nobody is arguing that burqa wearers should be exempt from showing their face in court etc.
  • #1,837
  • Feb 5, 2017 6:26am Feb 5, 2017 6:26am
Quoting Toranaga
{quote} Ok. So lets suppose you are a car dealer or working somewhere in a Government office.. Would you like to deal / sign a contract with one of this 5 beauties ?? Or have your neighborhood full of this batman's sisters. Me not, the American right to choose what they wear or not. the middle age is over and out. And thats fine. !! {image}
you have giving very strong examples but it's more than just security I grow up in a multicultural area and have Muslim friends and this clothing alienates the women from the local community if I knock at a black/Hindu/Sikh person house their mum would normally answer the door and talk to you and eventually you would get to know them with they face covered as some of the Muslim mum use to do I never got to know them properly I have old friends who I haven't seen for years but still stop and talk to their mum want I see them as I can recognising them with the Muslim women I have no idea who is behind their clothing

it's easy for people that don't live in multicultural communities to jump up on their high horse saying thing's like (you appear happy to justify the denial of other peoples liberty because you feel threatened) it's not all about feeling threatened even though there is a clear security risk it's also about community
  • #1,838
  • Edited 7:12am Feb 5, 2017 6:54am | Edited 7:12am
Quoting Ross88
{quote} you have giving very strong examples but it's more than just security I grow up in a multicultural area and have Muslim friends and this clothing alienates the women from the local community if I knock at a black/Hindu/Sikh person house their mum would normally answer the door and talk to you and eventually you would get to know them with they face covered as some of the Muslim mum use to do I never got to know them properly I have old friends who I haven't seen for years but still stop and talk to their mum want I see them as I can recognising...
Again though, there is no discussion of the unintended consequences.

Inevitably there is a trade off from banning the burqa. You may believe you are doing it for reasons of security and making sure people integrate but what it requires is 1) potentially discriminatory legislation, 2) potentially further alienation of a community, and 3) the resentment built up as a result may make ultimately make everyone less safe.

There seems to be no acknowledgement of the potential problems (1,2,3) created as a result of a burqa ban. I think there isn't enough consideration of what kind of society you wish to live in when government can ban clothing. Nor is there any discussion as to whether banning the burqa will lead to further integration and make people ultimately more safe - there is reason to believe it will result in the exact opposite.

Three important question just totally ignored. That's not good. We must be thinking of the other side, and be realistic about the trade offs, otherwise we are no better than the reactionary 'left', and the social justice warriors.
  • #1,839
  • Feb 5, 2017 7:14am Feb 5, 2017 7:14am
Quoting verv
{quote} I think we need to properly define the argument. Your example isn't a useful comparison Ross, I don't think anyone is arguing for preferentially treatment of Muslim women. In fact that's the exact opposite of what is being discussion. What is is being discussed is whether or not it is ok that government should restrict the ability of people to wear clothing of their choosing. There are obvious reasons why in some situations people must have their faces shown - courts and passports, banks potentially as well. That however doesn't require...
Q,I think we need to properly define the argument. Your example isn't a useful comparison Ross, I don't think anyone is arguing for preferentially treatment of Muslim women. In fact that's the exact opposite of what is being discussion
I think you will find that the majority of people will find my comparison useful if I was walking down your street with my face covered you would not like it for a variety of reasons to let one group of people do this is called preferential treatment however you try to dress it up pardon the pun

Q,What is is being discussed is whether or not it is ok that government should restrict the ability of people to wear clothing of their choosing. There are obvious reasons why in some situations people must have their faces shown - courts and passports, banks potentially as well. That however doesn't require a complete ban on the burqa, or indeed a ban at all
in British society you have never been allowed to just wonder around the street with your face covered you are also not allowed to have tattoos directly on your face by UK law is this (denial of other peoples liberty because you feel threatened) or common sense?? for everyone else you have to show your face why do Muslim women not have to do this and if not how dose that not make them a protected class again??

Q,Clearly there are consequences for the nature of our government and the rights of citizens when you ban certain behaviours, such as choice of clothes, even when no law has been broken and nobody else's rights have been infringed upon
this is a ridiculous point is their consequences that I can not collect my sister's children from school in a balaclava or that I can not tattoo multiple times on my face is the government infringed upon my rights?? or are we as a society saying no you can not collect children from school in a balaclava??

Q,I don't think people are giving the required thought to where this leads. So you have a ban because you feel threatened, but does that make certain people in some ways second class citizens? What else should we ban because you feel threatened, should we ban political points of view because we feel threatened by people with a different opinion than ours also?
you are not giving this required thought not me they are examples of people going to job interviews without their face cover and than when they get the job come in on their first day with their face cover when it's clearly detrimental for the quality of their work as jen said (There's is a lot more to the burqa than an item of clothing. It is a statement to say that they have no respect for Western culture or laws). it's not all about the clear security risk it's also about community and by your own logic am the second class citizen because I can not pick up my sister's children from school in a balaclava but a Muslim women can do this with her face cover. I asking for nothing else to be ban am asking for everyone to be treated equally the fact that you are saying if we ban covering your face what's next it could be thought police is ridiculous you are asking for some to be more equal than others not me

Q,What's worrying is Im not finding anyone proposing a burqa ban thinking about the unintended consequences. You don't make these types of decisions with your eyes closed, you need a discussion on where it leads and if the inevitable compromises are worth it.
what do you think the unintended consequences is more integration and less security risk. how many Muslim women do you think would be secretly happy that they can no longer cover their face in public they are clearly being oppressed how do you think you would feel if I made you cover your face everywhere you went how do you think that would affect your relationship with people around you like your neighbours or local shopkeeper your children friends parents no one would be sure it was you behind the veil so instead of calling everyone threatened think about how this is affecting the women's lives
  • #1,840
  • Edited 7:56am Feb 5, 2017 7:43am | Edited 7:56am
Quoting Ross88
{quote}In fact that's the exact opposite of what is being discussion I think you will find that the majority of people will find my comparison useful if I was walking down your street with my face covered you would not like it for a variety of reasons to let one group of people do this is called preferential treatment however you try to dress it up pardon the pun
It isn't the same. You are assuming that I am saying it is ok to give people preferential treatment - I'm not saying that.

My reply to that argument is that if the bank requires a person to show their face, then that person must show their face - end of story. It is something applied universally regardless of whether that is a burqa or a helmet, or a scarf. It doesn't specifically discriminate against a particular faith.

The burqa ban being discussed, is a complete ban on the burqa in public. The relevant example is a person walking down the street, wearing a burqa, minding their own business.

Quote
in British society you have never been allowed to just wonder around the street with your face covered you are also not allowed to have tattoos directly on your face by UK law is this (denial of other peoples liberty because you feel threatened) or common sense?? for everyone else you have to show your face why do Muslim women not have to do this and if not how dose that not make them a protected class again??

But there is no ban against tattoos on a person face, nor is there a ban on people covering their face. I'm not sure why you think there is.

Quote
this is a ridiculous point is their consequences that I can not collect my sister's children from school in a balaclava or that I can not tattoo multiple times on my face is the government infringed upon my rights?? or are we as a society saying no you can not collect children from school in a balaclava??

It depends why are wearing the balaclava, you might be wearing it:

1) when you are riding a motorcycle, 2) when it is very cold.
3) conceal your identity because you wish to commit a crime 4) to scare people.

If you are wearing a balaclava for lawful reasons, (1+2), what's the problem?
If it is for unlawful, or nefarious purposes, (3+4), then you investigate it.

Muslims women wear the burqa because it is part of their tradition. In other words, they wear it because of their faith, which is not unlawful. They don't wear it ro commit a crime or to scare people.

Quote
you are not giving this required thought not me they are examples of people going to job interviews without their face cover and than when they get the job come in on their first day with their face cover when it's clearly detrimental for the quality of their work as jen said (There's is a lot more to the burqa than an item of clothing. It is a statement to say that they have no respect for Western culture or laws). it's not all about the clear security risk it's also about community and by your own logic am the second class citizen because I can...

Like I said, the burqa ban is talking about a complete ban of the burqa in public. I thought this was clear.

Nobody is arguing that private businesses, or the police, or the courts, or the passport office cannot have rules about the clothing that people wear. When people are required by law, or by their job to show their face then they should - it's very simple.

The examples you are giving are not relevant, because what is being discussed is a total burqa ban. The examples of banning people from wearing a burqa at a job, or at a court, or passport office, isn't arguing about a ban in public.

A relevant question is, if a person is just walking down the street, are they allowed to wear a burqa?

Quote
what do you think the unintended consequences is more integration and less security risk. how many Muslim women do you think would be secretly happy that they can no longer cover their face in public they are clearly being oppressed how do you think you would feel if I made you cover your face everywhere you went how do you think that would affect your relationship with people around you like your neighbours or local shopkeeper your children friends parents no one would be sure it was you behind the veil so instead of calling everyone threatened...

I think there is evidence to think that banning the burqa will have the exact opposite impact.

By banning the burqa you are restricting their customs, a custom of wearing a burqa in and off itself does not infringe on the rights of anyone else.

When you repress their customs, you might alienate them further, rather than more.

And when you alienate them further, you increase the changes of them feeling discriminated against, and becoming terrorists.

I thought this was clear.
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