BREXIT RULES! The Consequences

Ooops Honey I just shrunk the Kids!!

This sent to me by a trading colleague .. a disillusioned Leave supporter .. Ive checked and it seems genuine.?

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Nigel Farage speaking to the host of ITVs Good Morning Britain, after the Vote.

 

1. ITV Host: The 350 million pounds a week*** that we send to the EU, which we will no longer send to the EU, can you guarantee thats going to go to the NHS [Britains National Health Service]?

1. Farage: No, I cant, and I would never have made that claim. It is one of the mistakes that, I think, the leave campaign made.

1. Host: Hold on a moment. That was one of your adverts.

They then sparred over whether it was the leave campaigns advertisement or Farages in particular (it was the campaigns, not Farages).

 

1. Host: Thats why many people voted.

1. Farage: They made a mistake doing that.

1. Host: Youre saying after 17 million people have voted for leave, based I dont know how many people voted on the basis of that advert, but that was a huge part of the propaganda youre now saying thats a mistake?

A MISTAKE? Try that on the SFO? They call it FRAUD.
*** BTW the 350mio figure was another fraudulent claim since excused as another "Mistake".

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My own checking suggests that this WAS an outright lie but while condoned used and unchallenged by Farage was in fact originated by Boris Johnson.. now the new UK Foreign Secretary. No stranger to lying, and fired from two previous positions for lying, its extraordinarily that we should have someone like that who if in business would be on charges before the courts for such outright scamming. But then maybe hes well appointed. Since the definition of a Ambassador is an honest man sent abroad to lie for his country. Boris has an advantage. Hes already well known to be "economical with the truth" .. isnt that the PC way of saying it?

Two points.

1. EU is a Political Union?
   No I dont know that. Ive just refuted it.
   Thats your opinion, and while everyone is entitled to their own opinion, NOBODY is entitled to their own FACTS.
   There factions with the EU that would like it to be, but there is no evidence that they will prevail In fact such a development would require extensive and entirely politically unachievable treaty change with all 28 Member states agreeing to such a move. A Phantom threat.. like the Turkey Membership delusion.
2. HOW can the fact that the UK is half in/half out ..possibly be "by the by".
   How can you be half in and half out of a Political Union. Its like being half pregnant.

BTW This is just a clarification of my position on this , not an invitation to further debate.

According to the EU website, https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/eu-in-brief_en

The first line - "The European Union is a unique economic and political union between 28 European countries (https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/countries/member-countries_en) that together cover much of the continent."

The second paragraph - "From economic to political union
What began as a purely economic union has evolved into an organization spanning policy areas (https://europa.eu/european-union/topics_en), from climate (https://europa.eu/european-union/topics/climate-action_en), environment (https://europa.eu/european-union/topics/environment_en) and health (https://europa.eu/european-union/topics/health_en) to external relations and security (https://europa.eu/european-union/topics/foreign-security-policy_en), justice and migration (https://europa.eu/european-union/topics/justice-home-affairs_en). A name change from the European Economic Community (EEC) to the European Union (EU) in 1993 reflected this."

BTW This is not an invitation to further debate, just a clarification of how wrong your position on this is.

​Being half pregnant is like when a man's partner is pregnant, he is not pregnant but he kinda is.

​Oh yeah, thanks for the post telling us that politicians break campaign promises, I hope that everyone takes note to this revelatory news that you are shocking us with. You really are ahead of the curve Cliff. Oh I just realised your friend had to inform you of this, I take back the "ahead of the curve" thing.

Just as a note, my school reports did say could try harder, in more than one subject, so when you used that line to attack another in this thread I just see it for what it is.

Einstein
Munich schoolmaster wrote in Albert Einstein's school report, "He will never amount to anything", 1895.

thanks for standing up for me I can not lie it bring back hard and painful memories in my life the way Cliff just has a knack of seeing through the BS and getting to the truth and he can do it without lowering himself with petty immature insults and without claiming other people are attacking him it's the mark of the men the way he can be without biased in a political discussion cliff when I grow up I want to be like you. the way you can accept other people have a different point of view without looking down on them is truly inspirational and it go's to show in the way your thread is a buzzing with different opinions

[quote=Kubez;9133845]According to the EU website, https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/eu-in-brief_en The first line - "The European Union is a unique economic and political union between 28 European countries (https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/countries/member-countries_en)

and the fact Kubez think it's a political union I bet he can not tie his shoelaces and his probably poor with a low IQ right because if the EU was a political union they would just say so but we know when people say their opinion it's just a proxy for what we think right because they are stupid and we are smart we are not pretentious right

I don't have an irrational fear of Junker, I don't even know the guy but he seems like a pleasant drunk.

https://youtu.be/B7uamDp6zjg

After reading some of your comments in this thread Cliff, I imagine you admire his contempt for people.

Sentiment underlying Brexit is nothing new as this clip from 20 years ago illustrates.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6a_weyzkY4

My contempt for other people is confined to those with underlying views and attitudes that reflect those of Sir George Parr in this sketch.

Your first statement implies that a huge amount of people are....

Your second statement tries to walk back your first statement.

Cliff, in post #365 you said "Interesting to see that Sovereignty and NOT emigrants was the biggest issue for Leave voters"

You posted a graphic from an Ashcroft poll that said that the number one issue that people voted to leave because they felt that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK.

​Now you are going to throw out your earlier conclusions because you are back to the racist, xenophobic line of thinking as demonstrated by posting that video.

Let's just admit it, you have your mind decided already and no amount of evidence country to that position will change it, even though you posted data, that you feel has some validity, discredits your position. This is the third time that you have contradicted yourself with your own data. First time you said, "Because for me it did."(#395), so the field of experience is a subjective reality for you then, the second time you said, "I stand corrected... in the detail... Both Ashcroft & Pew polls show Sovereignty No 1. However Id make the observation that Sovereignty as "choice"is a proxy for Immigration. (no Phd. required to figure that..LoL)", yes LOL indeed, again your observation is contradicted by the poll results that you posted, you can not just interpret the results to fit your narrative, and I am dying to hear what you say this third time.

I would posit that most countries/tribes as a whole think that they are "better" than other countries/tribes, hence the reason why there are boarders in the first place, this is just human nature. The problem with arrises when people are not treated as individuals but are pre-judged and treated according to preconceived notions, such as calling a large section of people racists, xenophobes or Little Englanders especially when the data disproves this line of thinking. It is a pot meet kettle situation. The great thing with racism is it can still be used if the UK comes out of this with little damage.

I am far more reluctant to label such large amounts of people with no evidence than you Cliff and if it is only a small group of people you are labelling, they are marginal at best and not worth discussing.

WoW!

That 20 year old satirical video (Post427) really hit a nerve ...

Eh?

List of Promises and claims made to induce voters to vote Brexit..

Which I for one will expect to be delivered by 2019.... along with Brexit means Brexit.


UK-EU trade
1. Negotiate new trade deals with the US, China, Japan, Canada, Australia, South Korea, New Zealand and others which would immediately take effect on EU exit.After we Vote Leave, we would immediately be able to start negotiating new trade deals with emerging economies and the worlds biggest economies (the US, China and Japan, as well as Canada, Australia, South Korea, New Zealand, and so on), which could enter into force immediately after the UK leaves the EU.Vote Leave press release, 15 June 2016
2. Create 284,000 new UK jobs through new trade deals withUSA, Japan, ASEAN, India and Mercosur.In the last few years, the EU has sought to complete five key trade deals, with the USA, Japan, ASEAN, India and Mercosur. Because of protectionism in other European countries, the EU has failed to get a trade deal with any of these countries. When we Vote Leave we will be able to do trade deals with all of these countries much more quickly. According to the EUs own figures this will create 284,000 new jobs in the UK. Vote Leave press release, 12 May 2016
3. Trade with the EU will not be harmed. Our trade will almost certainly continue with the EU on similar to current circumstancesThe reality is that the hard-headed, pragmatic businessmen on the continent will do everything to ensure that trade with Britain continues uninterrupted. David Davis, speech, 26 May 2016
The EUs supporters say we must have access to the Single Market. Britain will have access to the Single Market after we vote leave.Vote Leave, What Happens When We Vote Leave?
there will continue to be free trade, and access to the single market, Boris Johnson, The Telegraph, 26 June 2016
"It should be win-win for us and it will be if we vote to leave and we can maintain free trade, stop sending money and also have control of our borders", Michael Gove, BBC, 8 May 2016
The idea that our trade will sufferis silly,Vote Leave, What Happens When We Vote Leave

Anglo-Irish relationship
4. No border controls in Ireland.Nor is there any prospect of security checks returning to the border. The common travel area between the UK and Ireland predates our EU membership and will outlast it. The unique status Irish citizens are accorded in the UK predates EU membership and will outlast it. There is no reason why the UKs only land border should be any less open after Brexit than it is today.Theresa Villiers, Vote Leave press releases, 14 April 2016
5. Free movement for Irish citizens to work in Britain.The right of Irish citizens to enter, reside and work in the UK is already enshrined in our law. This will be entirely unaffected by a vote to leave on 23 June.Vote Leave press release, 1 June 2016

Education, science and research
6. Hundreds of new schools: Lets imagine what else this money could buy:hundreds of new schools Vote Leave, Take Control, YouTube
7. More primary school places in our current schools:Just 2.4% of our gross EU contributions could eliminate the shortfall in school places in England. It has been estimated that as many as 100,000 parents will miss their first preference for primary school placesThe 461.2m needed to fund the additional 100,000 school places is just over a weeks worth of contributions to the EU.Vote Leave press release, 18 April 2016
8. More spending on scientific research Lets imagine what else this money could buyioneering health and scientific research. Vote Leave, Take Control, YouTube

Immigration
9. A points-based immigration system.Asylum and Immigration Control Bill...The Bill would end the discrimination against non-EU citizens and create a genuine points-based immigration system in which the possession of suitable skills is a key element.Vote Leave press release, 15 June 2016
10. Higher immigration from non-EU countries. we are now forced to block people from non-European countries who could contribute to the UK from coming here. This is an immoral, expensive, and out of control system. Vote Leave briefing
NHS
11. More health spending.Lets give our NHS the 350 million the EU takes every week. Vote Leave website
12. Raise pay for junior doctors.A small fraction of the money that the EU takes from us each year could be used to give junior doctors the pay settlement they are looking for. Gisela Stuart, Vote Leave press release, 25 April 2016
13. Abolish prescription charges.If we Vote Leave we will be able to stop handing over so much money to the EU and we would be able to spend our money on priorities here in the UK like abolishing prescription charges. Gisela Stuart, Vote Leave press release, 5 April 2016
14. Building new hospitals.Lets imagine what else this money could buy: state of the art hospitals. Vote Leave, Take Control, YouTube

Public spending commitments
15. Maintain all current EU spending.There is more than enough money to ensure that those who now get funding from the EU - including universities, scientists, family farmers, regional funds, cultural organisations and others - will continue to do so while also ensuring that we save money that can be spent on our priorities. If the public votes to leave on 23 June, we will continue to fund EU programmes in the UK until 2020, or up to the date when the EU is due to conclude individual programmes if that is earlier than 2020. Joint letter from Vote Leave ministers, Vote Leave press release, 14 June 2016,
16. More public support for agriculture. Let's get one thing straight. The UK government will continue to give farmers and the environment as much support - or perhaps even more - as they get now. George Eustice, Vote Leave press release, 23 March 2016,
17. New roads. Lets imagine what else this money could buy:we could build new roads. Vote Leave, Take Control, YouTube
18. Improving railways.Lets imagine what else this money could buy:improve the railways. Vote Leave, Take Control, YouTube
19. Expanding regional airports.Lets imagine what else this money could buy:expand regional airports.Vote Leave, Take Control, YouTube
20. Reversing changes to tax credits. The controversial tax credit bill that was rejected by the House of Lords last week would have provided the Treasury with 4.4bn worth of savings. Heres an idea, George - when we leave the EU, youll be able to fill that hole in EU membership fee savings. Leave.EU Facebook, 2 November 2014
21. Paying state aid to the steel industry. Imagine if we Vote Leave we will be able to end unfair state aid rules, and support struggling industries like Steel. Vote Leave Campaign News, 10 February 2016
22. New submarines.even if we acknowledge the rebate and the sums already spent here, 10.6 billion of taxpayers money is given to the EU in a yearJust think what we could do with this money It could pay for fourteen Astute Class Submarines.Michael Gove, Vote Leave press release, 19 April 2016
23. Protecting Research Grants.We are not talking about scrapping any sory [sic] of funding when it comes to subsidies for farmers or research grants for universities or any other sort of EU funding. Matthew Elliott, Yorkshire Post, 20 November 2015
24. A British DARPA.you have a chunk of money which you immediately save which you can put into it. You can set up a British DARPA. Dominic Cummings, The Economist, 21 January 2016
25. Pothole repairs.The EU has spent 264 million on just four bridges in Greece, Romania, Bulgaria and Poland, more than the 250 million that is forecast to be spent on the UKs Pothole Action Fund in the next five years. After we Vote Leave, we can spend our money on our priorities like fixing our roads. Taxpayers money should be spent on filling in potholes in Britain, rather than being squandered on foreign bridges to nowhere.Vote Leave Campaign Email, 2 February 2016

Rights of EU citizens currently living in the UK
26. EU citizens already resident in Britain will have the right to remain here. There will be no change for EU citizens already lawfully resident in the UK. These EU citizens will automatically be granted indefinite leave to remain in the UK and will be treated no less favourably than they are at present. Statement by Michael Gove, Boris Johnson, Priti Patel and Gisela Stuart, 1 June 2016

Security
27. Continue and deepen cooperation with the EU on science and counter-terrorism. In particular, we will negotiate a UK-EU Treaty that enables us 1) to continue cooperating in many areas just as now (e.g. maritime surveillance), 2) to deepen cooperation in some areas (e.g. scientific collaborations and counter-terrorism). Vote Leave, What Happens When We Vote Leave?

Tax cuts
28. Lower taxes: If you are still wondering what it will look like if we came out, think about this:lower taxes as a result of no longer having to pay into the EU budget. Vote Leave press release, 6 January 2016
29. Lower business taxes:there are areas where government spending is a detriment to an efficient economy since it wastes money which could be going towards helping businesses which creates jobs and income. I think that the billions we spend on our EU contributions and the foreign aid budget would be a good place to start. Nigel Farage, SunNation, 8 April 2015
30. Cut VAT on fuel:A special Finance Bill. This would abolish the 5% rate of VAT on household energy bills by the date of the next general election by amending the Value Added Tax Act 1994, and will be a major benefit for low income households. This will be paid for by savings from the UKs contributions to the EU budget. Vote Leave press release, 15 June 2016
31. Reducing council tax:Without our EU budget contributions, we could give everyone a 60 per cent council tax cut. Daniel Hannan, Twitter, 1 September 2015
32. Reclaim billions in tax avoidance. The EU may be good for some big multi-national businesses, but the truth is it's bad for smaller firms and UK taxpayers. People will be shocked that big business is taking British taxpayers to court in Europe where unelected judges are overruling the decisions of our parliament on tax rules - costing us all billions. That's on top of the 350 million we already hand over to Brussels every single week. We need to Vote Leave to stop this abuse. And this is no small matter - there are staggering amounts involved in these cases. Priti Patel, Vote Leave press release, 10 April 2016
33. Abolish VAT on tampons:'After we Vote Leave the public need to see that there is immediate action to take back control from the EU. We will need a carefully managed negotiation process and some major legislative changes before 2020, including taking real steps to limit immigration, to abolish VAT on fuel and tampons.Chris Grayling, Vote Leave press release, 15 June 2016

Wages
34. Wages will rise.The NHS will be stronger, class sizes smaller and taxes lower. Well have more money to spend on our priorities, wages will be higher and fuel bills will be lower, Statement by Michael Gove, Boris Johnson and Gisela Stuart for The Sun - Vote Leave to cut VAT on fuel, 31 May 2016

The United Kingdom
35. A stronger Union.If we vote to leave then I think the union will be stronger I think when we vote to leave it will be clear that having voted to leave one union the last thing people in Scotland wanted to do is to break up another. Michael Gove, BBC, 8 May 2016

Workers rights
36. Existing employment rights will be protected.All of the EU legislation we have accepted since Tony Blair took us into the social chapter has been incorporated into UK law and will remain in place if we vote to leave. Any decision to simplify or change any of those laws would need voters consent. Our public holidays will also be protected and maternity and paternity leave will stay. Andrea Leadsom and Gisela Stuart, The Times, 14 June 2016
Let me be clear, very clear, on employment rights and the protection of workers rights that we are not looking to change those. So I will emphasise that again this evening. Those rights are enshrined by parliament, and which government would want to change that quite frankly? Supporting workers rights is absolutely the right thing to do and thats part of our values that we have. Priti Patel, Telegraph debate, 1 June 2016

Britains new relationship with Europe
37. A new UK-EU treaty by the end of 2018. Given that all the big issues have already been solved over the years between the EU and countries around the world, and there is already a free trade zone stretching from Iceland to the Russian border, the new UK-EU Treaty should be ready within two years. In many areas we will continue existing arrangements at least for a while. Obviously the relationship will change and improve over time but a main goal for the first phase is to avoid unnecessary disruption. All the important elements of a new Treaty should be in place well before the next election.Vote Leave, What Happens When We Vote Leave?
38. Construction of a new European institutional architecture. We will build a new European institutional architecture that enables all countries, whether in or out of the EU or euro, to trade freely and cooperate in a friendly way. Vote Leave, What Happens When We Vote Leave?

For those baffled by Brexit decision on June 23rd, in the context of its populist and apparent contra-rational and contra-intuitive nature,
this TED TALK video from Alexander Betts, provides a constructive and positive bridge towards its understanding, and a sobering tempering of the arrogance which some, (and I include myself to an extent) have had in understanding it in other than judgemental and negative terms.
For committed Brexiteers , I think it also is useful to view, in that it provides a both a context and justification for that commitment.

Maybe it presents a meeting-point for .the very divergent perspectives that divide our Nation at present.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcwuBo4PvE0

The first post of this thread you wrote, "So time now to accept this and move on."

If anything is getting me remotely close to hitting a nerve it is you. Take your own advice and move on, please quit with the Little Englander, racist, xenophobic rhetoric, you are like a broken record or perhaps worse a bigot i.e. a person who is intolerant towards those holding different opinions. You can source good information like the "Lies" post above, it is still focusing on before the vote and reasons rather the consequences but I am sure we can move on.

So lets concentrate on the consequences, as the name of this thread and your words in that first post suggest. Perhaps we should just post events as they happen, I am even up for conjecture but to me you are trying to come off as superior, being on the right side of history and anyone who did not agree with you is either stupid, racist, xenophobic or what ever nom d'jour, is en vogue is frankly creating more heat than light as you say. So perhaps we can stop with the recriminations and get to the results, lets watch what happens with the UK and EU, it will be a good distraction while the world burns, excuse the hyperbole.

No need to apologise, let's just move on.

I see the video. I also understand the video English. And I read a few comments on the video.

I am sorry. From my experience and background, I can only say it's utopian. I don't say I am against globalization. It's just globalization has no concrete foundation atm.

I understand that TED has only concerned about developed countries. He doesn't even know other parts of world.

I can only say Good luck to globalization. Good if it succeeds. Never mind if it doesn't.

Cliffedwards, I know I haven't explained myself clearly. I know your good intention with globalization. I know that you find too many obstacles. I am neutral on globalization. And I can only say TED has failed on giving globalization a concrete foundation to work.

What an ABSOLUTE load of cobblers. Pretending to 'understand' what happened, he then goes on to patronise and flatter himself in one foul swoop.
In his words, the vote was about those that "embrace globalisation" and "those that fear globalisation". The smugness of this speech is absolutely nauseating.
So having admitted that people haven't understood the reason why Brexit happened, he then constructs a narrative that basically pits brave liberalism against scared conservatism and small-mindedness.

He talks about neoliberal agendas as if they were an imaginary construct rather than a present reality. He talks about 'fear of globalisation'. Not a single word about what may be problematic right inside the very system that we've just left. Not one. The entire speech is geared around correcting perceptions. Well, he might want to start at home before preaching to the world about how wonderfully inclusive he is.

The current path of globalisation needs correcting, and some platitudes about how everyone needs to "share in the profits" is utterly meaningless when the complaints against what's been happening have been made loud and clear over decades but ignored. The middle classes haven't yet been hit by globalisation but they will, and when it happens, he might understand what a heist looks like.

And I've just seen this. Facts. Whether you want to debate it or not, the EU is a political and economic union, and becoming ever more political. This isn't opinion. Integration isn't overnight, it's a staged process. And when people vote against it (Ireland, Lisbon treaty), they just steamroll it through anyway. Plans for a european army aren't opinion, they are facts Cliff, and you seem to be peddling a complete lie that political integration isn't the ambition of the EU. Are you for real in saying it's just a trading/migration agreement?

And how can you be half in half out a union?! UK has *always* been this way, as described by not only us, but other member states. We had special exclusions, special treatment, special everything. Our commitment couldn't have been more on the fence. But that does't change the FACTS - this is a political union being run in the wrong direction.

Ted didn't give any solution to globalization problems. He ignored them as if they didn't exists. He just wish there were globalization without seeing problems in reality. Ppl face the problems of globalization everyday, even me in far away place. How can TED be such an ignorant?

@frx_trader I admire many of your perspectives. but PLEASE tell me WHAT gave you ANY expectation that suggesting solutions to the redistributive inequality effects of Globalisation , (which is the core of your criticism above), was any part of this talk.?

To clarify.. The speaker in this talk is Alexander Betts. He is SOCIAL SCIENTIST NOT an ECONOMIST, He is speaking from that perspective, to the incomprehension of the overwhelming weight of global expert economic opinion, both practitioners and academics, that the decision by my fellow voters to Leave the European Union would be mistake.
And trying to explain (to them) how that comprehension gap could be bridged... and most importantly that they understand how politically sensitive of the social consequences that these redistributive inequalities have become in developed economies throughout the world, and the priority of find solutions to them directly.
I would direct @Triphop to this response also.

FYI... TED is a nonprofit devoted to spreading ideas, usually in the form of short, powerful talks (18-20 minutes or less). TED began in 1984 as a conference where Technology, Entertainment and Design converged, and today covers almost all topics from science to business to global issues in more than 100 languages. Here: https://www.ted.com/

Hmmmm..... I see. I underestimate the powers that advocate globalization. It would be nice if anyone can work and travel anywhere. That's my wish. To meet new people and new culture.

That's good news. But there are problems. Social problem and not economics problem. Economically sounds good. Socially, not always good, it can be bad. I like modern and open society. But not all people think like me. I like new thinking. I also know what's good and bad. But there is a limit that I can accept as change. The older you get, the more conservative you will be. Because you can't accept as mush as change as you like.

I don't know how globalization will look like. Sounds good on the surface. Beneath, I don't know, nobody knows until they surface. Unless I know what globalization looks like, I will remain skeptical. I know there are more people that are more skeptical than me.

I can accept globalization and its consequences. That doesn't mean I like everything in it. New environment has new challenges. Only those who adapt to these situation can survive.

Hope for the best. And be on guard for the worse.

Cliff you side-stepped this like you side-step everything else that doesn't fit your vision of Brexit. And exactly like the 'social scientist' did too.

you're creating your own echo chamber so I'll wish you well and leave you to it

Looks like Apple are not too worried about Brexit.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/revealed-apple-to-create-stunning-new-hq-at-battersea-power-station-a3356201.html

Wonder why they chose UK over EU.