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Attachments: BREXIT RULES! The Consequences
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BREXIT RULES! The Consequences

  • #321
  • Jul 13, 2016 9:20am Jul 13, 2016 9:20am
Quoting cliffedwards
{quote} These are the unedited as-published CONCLUSIONS this Parliamentary Report*: 62. Regardless of any progress made by the Council in improving the transparency, accountability and efficiency of EU legislative processes, we consider that the (UK) Government could and should take action itself to make more information available to Parliament and to the public. At the European Union level, it could take the lead in making public statements of the reason for its vote more frequently. 63. We accept that Parliament could take a lead in increasing...
http://www.euractiv.com/section/science-policymaking/opinion/democracy-denied-how-the-commission-keeps-people-out-of-lawmaking/
  • #322
  • Jul 13, 2016 9:43am Jul 13, 2016 9:43am
Quoting Devauxt
{quote} Even the way impact assessments are carried out is controversial. Campaigners claim evidence is sometimes twisted to legitimise political decisions, rather than the decisions being based on sober consideration of all the facts.
So here we have the Freudian Slip..
Note carefully the words " Campaigners claim.. "

For anyone interested in the facts of the process, as distinct to "Campaigners claim(s)" in relation EU Impact Asscessment.
http://ec.europa.eu/info/law-making-process/planning-and-proposing-law/impact-assessments_en
Two quick extracts..
...."Impact assessment reports are published with the proposals or with acts adopted by the Commission. They are also sent to the EU law-makers, the Parliament and Council, to consider as they decide on whether to adopt the proposed law."
...."The findings of the impact assessment process are summarized in an impact assessment report. The quality of each report is checked by an independent body, the Regulatory Scrutiny Board, which issues opinions."

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

This exchange began with my challenge to @Devauxt for his repetition of what I regard as a much propagated LIE.by Brexit apologists.
This concerned a nasty bit of smearing .. specifically the characterization of EU legislation as a an unaccountable, undemocratic, haphazard, disreputable process implemented and imposed by a bureaucracy equally unaccountable and driven by a self interested agenda.. To nail the Lie, .Ive not relied on cherrypicked buddybuddy opinions cut and pasted to divert the reader.
Instead Ive repeatedly encouraged readers to examine the FACTS.. given links to Original Sources, and form their own opinions..
I believe in making my own decisions based on original sources. Its called Due Diligence.I do not believe in forming my opinion on the opinions of others unless they are indisputably independent and expert.which case I take such opinions under serious advice. Nothing particularly smart about that, Having spoken to 000 of traders over the years, it an almost universal trait of those that have found success in this high risk business.
So At this point I consider that challenge complete.

This thread seeks to examine the consequences of BREXIT. I will now be returning my focus to that.
  • #323
  • Jul 13, 2016 10:38am Jul 13, 2016 10:38am
Quoting cliffedwards
{quote} So here we have the Freudian Slip.. Note carefully the words " Campaigners claim.. " For anyone interested in the facts of the process, as distinct to "Campaigners claim(s)" in relation EU Impact Asscessment. http://ec.europa.eu/info/law-making-process/planning-and-proposing-law/impact-assessments_en Two quick extracts.. ...."Impact assessment reports are published with the proposals or with acts adopted by the Commission. They are also sent to the EU law-makers, the Parliament and Council, to consider as they decide on whether...
You say that you neither support Remain nor Leave campaigns yet you seem to take any EU derived documents and pro EU documents as gospel and offer no criticism of them. As an analyst and a declared "fence sitter", I would have expected a more analytical and balanced debate from you.

From the House of Commons European Scrutiny Committee report..

"It is clear that we are not the only body concerned about the transparency of the EU legislative process. Not only is the European Ombudsman investigating the transparency of the negotiations between the Council and the European Parliament with the assistance of the European Commission (“trilogues”), the European institutions themselves have recently reached agreement on measures to improve transparency."

"We see the implementation of this new Interinstitutional Agreement on Better Law-Making to be an opportunity...." an opportunity maybe but not yet a solution

There are issues and they have reached an agreement on resolving them. It says nothing to the implementation of any changes

"the issues that we have identified, including:

• consistent application of current transparency requirements at each stage of the decision-making procedure (working group, Coreper and Council) and across different Council configurations; means that there is inconsistent application of current transparency requirements at each stage of the decision-making procedure

• timely provision of information on Member State positions throughout the negotiations, at each level of the Council, balancing accessibility of information with confidentiality provisions; means that the timely provision of information on Member State positions throughout the negotiations, at each level of the Council, balancing accessibility of information with confidentiality provisions does not currently occur

• a clearer distinction between consideration of executive and legislative matters. "

"We consider that actions to improve the transparency and accountability of decision making in the Council should be addressed not only centrally by the European institutions but by the Government and by the House of Commons as a national parliamentary chamber responsible for scrutinising the Government’s position in the Council." means that transparency and accountability of decision making in the Council and the European institutions is neither wholly transparent or accountable.

There is a raft of criticism of the EU and its institutions
  • #324
  • Jul 13, 2016 2:10pm Jul 13, 2016 2:10pm
Quoting smikester
{quote} This argument has little to do with the EU. You may as well ask where your Ipad was made, where your socks are made or where your TV was made. Manufacturing moves to its best site. Do you seriously believe that none of this would have happened if the UK was not an EU member?
fair comment. I still hate the eu though
  • #325
  • Jul 13, 2016 6:40pm Jul 13, 2016 6:40pm
Looks like someone is trying to blow up the EU headquarters. A series of explosions have just gone off 4km from the European Parliament.
  • #326
  • Edited 4:28pm Jul 16, 2016 4:05pm | Edited 4:28pm
Quoting Mingary
{quote} Indeed, this is the backbone of the PVSRA method (:
Well, at least with the PVSRA method, We made monies. That is the fact! What ever the backbone transforming.

The fact is here: http://pvsrainternationalwithtraderathome.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&p=5190#p5190

But now, there is something absolutely wrong in the state of your head. That is the fact too!

https://twitter.com/nntaleb/status/753945063340650496

Traderathome once said:

In every society there are norms and standards for behavior. Some are set as laws, with punishments for breaking them. And there are folks that do so.

The path these folks go down is already known. The steps already have descriptions. They are Justification, Self-Deception, Total Absorption.

When a person willingly steps off the right path they have already justified to themselves doing so. They have told themselves such things as it won't matter as it is only the first time, etc. They step off the right path onto the wrong path. Usually nothing happens at first.

So, as time goes by, they decide it is alright to do more of whatever they know they should not be doing. And they do more. And if they don't get caught, they continue to do more.

There comes a time when they decide they are skilled at the wrongdoing, enough so that they can continue with caution for as long as they like because they know enough about what they are doing to avoid getting caught. They have just accomplished self-deception. There is no stopping them now.

From this point on they believe they are in control and they become totally absorbed in their wrongdoing. And we know the outcome.
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  • #327
  • Jul 16, 2016 5:14pm Jul 16, 2016 5:14pm
Quoting RoelsMajor
{quote} Well, at least with the PVSRA method, We made monies. That is the fact! What ever the backbone transforming. The fact is here: http://pvsrainternationalwithtraderathome.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&p=5190#p5190 But now, there is something absolutely wrong in the state of your head. That is the fact too! https://twitter.com/nntaleb/status/753945063340650496 Traderathome once said: In every society there are norms and standards for behavior. Some are set as laws, with punishments for breaking them. And there are...
Thank you for your post
However It seems to be posted to the wrong thread. This has nothing to do with the "PVSRA Method" what ever that is?
Maybe Here?? http://www.forexfactory.com/showthread.php?t=540706
If you tell me where it was directed.. I will help if possible to have it reposted to where you intended.?
Not a Problem.
  • #328
  • Edited 6:53pm Jul 16, 2016 5:59pm | Edited 6:53pm
Myths about the EU .. From OpEd in Washington Post

MYTH NO. 1
EUs a dictatorship of technocrats and a bloated bureaucracy.
Complaints about red tape, largesse and the dictatorship of unelected technocrats have littered the Euroskeptic press for decades. One popular site decries the E.U.s lack of democracy and its corruption. According to the Telegraph, some of its workers have offices bigger than the average British home. More soberly, the paper complained in 2013 that the civil service was costing slightly more each year because of pension obligations, even as overall E.U. spending fell by 6 percent. The Guardian that year explained how workers were insulated from austerity cuts in the member states. While budgets, public spending, and civil service staffing levels are being slashed from Portugal to Poland, Greece to Great Britain, to be one of the 56,000 EU eurocrats is to escape most of the pain felt in almost every country. The figures show a different picture: The various E.U. institutions employ around 55,000 civil servants, a few thousand more than those working for the city of Paris. They carry out the tasks the E.U.s member states have assigned to them, including negotiating international trade deals, managing the single market and coordinating matters of joint responsibility, such as dealing with immigration flows. By way of comparison, the U.S. government employs 2.6 million civilian civil servants. Given that the European Union represents nearly 200 million more people than Washington does, and that it contributes nearly a quarter of global GDP, the citizen-to-civil-servant ratio of 10,000 to 1 really isnt that bad.
  • #329
  • Jul 16, 2016 6:33pm Jul 16, 2016 6:33pm
MYTH NO. 2
Germany calls the shots.
Henry Kissinger once asked whom to call if you want to reach Europe. Most transatlantic thinkers say Germany, which has the largest economy and the largest population (15 percent of the E.U. citizenry), contributes the most to the E.U. budget, and often acts as the de facto head of Europe, especially since the financial crisis. Even Polands former foreign minister once said his countrys onetime foe was the indispensable nation. Its chancellor, Angela Merkel, is President Obamas confidante.
Still, the E.U. was meant to secure peace in Europe after the bloodshed of two world wars, with checks and balances so that no one country dominates especially Germany. And Berlin has often been reluctant to lead precisely because of its historical baggage. Qualified majority voting in the European Council means that countries need allies to push for their national preferences. Horse-trading, consensus building and persuasion are all common tactics. Different leadership constellations emerge on different issues: The Franco-German axis has always been a driver, but without the other four founding states it can do little; recent comers like the Central European countries are banding together to shape Europes migration policy; and other configurations (north-south, left-right) also influence decisions. Germany may be powerful within the bloc, but country code +49 is not the only way you reach the people in charge.
  • #330
  • Jul 16, 2016 6:33pm Jul 16, 2016 6:33pm
MYTH NO. 3
Brussels produces excessive and ridiculous regulation.
Euroskeptics say the E.U. wants a rule banning bendy bananas so that the shelves of grocers across the single market are filled only with straight bananas. They claim there are 26,911 words of regulation devoted to the sale of cabbage in the E.U. and that Brussels would like to rid Londons streets of the beloved double-decker bus. These are all supposedly signs that the Eurocrats interfere too much in daily life with superfluous rules.
For one thing, these claims are often false: There is no ban on double-decker buses or funky banana shapes (though the highest grade of commercial banana, like the highest grade of USDA beef, cannot have certain flaws, including abnormal curvature). But some guidelines criticized as intrusive simply because they exist are boons for consumers; rules that make buses accessible for the disabled and set safety standards for food are written to protect the well-being of E.U. citizens. The E.U., for instance, stipulated in 2014 that vacuum cleaners be energy efficient and not exceed 1,600 watts, which led to an outcry in Britain, where critics claimed that the new regulation would affect the suction strength of Hoovers. The rules text actually maintained standards for performance and noise level (so it could hardly be called excessive), while reducing consumer energy bills and protecting the environment (so it could hardly be called ridiculous). Sure, regulation can be burdensome for businesses, but it also helps create standards for consumer protection and can spur innovation.
  • #331
  • Jul 16, 2016 6:34pm Jul 16, 2016 6:34pm
MYTH NO. 4
The E.U. wants to create an army.
During the Brexit campaign, several newspapers wrote about a stealth plan to create a European army. EU army plans kept secret from voters, blared the Times. The Express said the body would start with the merger of Dutch and German forces. British pols fretted about losing sovereignty, upsetting Washington and undermining NATO. The dream of a European army does exist, as Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker recently said openly. Federalists who take inspiration from U.S. history argue that Europe as a political union can exist only when Europeans are willing to die for Europe.
But the realities of security and defense cooperation are sobering. E.U. member states do work together, but on strictly intergovernmental grounds where national capitals can veto any initiative. Constitutionally, some provisions do allow countries to move forward on joint defense, but they have never been used. European battle groups have been created by joining troops from volunteer countries, but they, too, have not been used. The E.U. global strategy document, the source of the supposedly hidden plans, merely recommends ways to improve this state of affairs. Creating a European army is not among them.
  • #332
  • Edited Jul 17, 2016 4:04am Jul 16, 2016 6:50pm | Edited Jul 17, 2016 4:04am
1 to 4 above come as said from an OpEd from the Washington Post. . .. I hate quoting OpEds because opinions are cheap. and Its not an expert source..
So take it as you will. I post it not because Im totally on board with it but only because I thought it interesting, and it broadly reflects some of the conclusions I independently arrived at in my research in the last 3 months. Note: there is a 5th myth commented on in same piece concerning the Euro which is not posted here, bcs its irrelevant to UK. We are not in EZ.
  • #333
  • Jul 17, 2016 3:35am Jul 17, 2016 3:35am
Cliff have you watched brexit the movie?
  • #334
  • Jul 17, 2016 5:21am Jul 17, 2016 5:21am
Quoting cliffedwards
MYTH NO. 3 Brussels produces excessive and ridiculous regulation. Euroskeptics say the E.U. wants a rule banning bendy bananas so that the shelves of grocers across the single market are filled only with straight bananas. They claim there are 26,911 words of regulation devoted to the sale of cabbage in the E.U. and that Brussels would like to rid Londons streets of the beloved double-decker bus. These are all supposedly signs that the Eurocrats interfere too much in daily life with superfluous rules. For one thing, these claims are often false:...
So why is it a "myth" if their conclusion is simply "but it's for your own good!"? Not that it matters, quoting the Washington Post is like me quoting a UKIP article busting "myths" about why the EU is so good. Hardly unbiased conclusions.
  • #335
  • Jul 17, 2016 5:23am Jul 17, 2016 5:23am
Quoting cliffedwards
MYTH NO. 4 The E.U. wants to create an army. ... The dream of a European army does exist, as Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker recently said openly. ...
So... not a myth then? Whether it's technically feasible at the moment is irrelevant, since what the EU is keeps evolving, and always in the direction feared.
  • #336
  • Jul 17, 2016 5:44am Jul 17, 2016 5:44am
Quoting cliffedwards
MYTH NO. 1 EUs a dictatorship of technocrats and a bloated bureaucracy. Complaints about red tape, largesse and the dictatorship of unelected technocrats have littered the Euroskeptic press for decades. One popular site decries the E.U.s lack of democracy and its corruption. According to the Telegraph, some of its workers have offices bigger than the average British home. More soberly, the paper complained in 2013 that the civil service was costing slightly more each year because of pension obligations, even as overall E.U. spending fell by 6 percent....
Is their best rebuttal "but it's not as big of a bureaucracy as the US"? The US and Paris bureaucrats are elected presumably and can be replaced; we can elect our own MEPs who can be ignored by the majority that no one in this country voted for... "Dealing with immigration flows." Right, dealing with them how? On whose authority? "Dictatorship of technocrats" sounds about right.
  • #337
  • Edited 6:22am Jul 17, 2016 5:53am | Edited 6:22am
Quoting NaughtyPip
Cliff have you watched brexit the movie?
Yes. And I understand how so many people, bright and smart who on seeing it were convinced by its message.
Unfortunately having been involved in the business of spin, the selling of ideas, product positioning,
researching consumer insecurities and designing advertising messages to exploit the irrational weaknesses.
I saw it in a different way. As a great and professionally engineered bit of spin, whos logic could be cracked open like an egg
IF, repeat IF you understood the persuasion techniques being applied.

Look, I have disagreed with many of your posts on Brexit. But Ive admired the fact that you are not like many here, an ideologue, and more than most aware that we live in a world of Smoke and Mirrors.* Where we need to constantly question and reassess even our own convictions. Its a form of mental gymnastics that few understand., but significantly one VITAL to trading successfully.
(And I love and respect the honesty of your quote: "I hate the EU though" reflecting the emotional/non-rational part of your judgement, to which everyone has a right).

*So two things to leave you with..
1. Scott Fitzgerald quote:
"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function"

2. If you really are interested in how we got "here".. what drives the divide between perception and reality (whatever that is..Lol) and how and why so many of us THINK we form our own ideas attitudes behavior while we dont.. follow this up. "The Century of the Self" .. a universally acclaimed film documentary from 2002. * Checkout its rating.
The great dangers we face as human beings is our capacity for self delusion and our vulnerability to irrational persuasion.

Have a good afternoon.

*Youtube link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJ3RzGoQC4s
Its quite long, initially quite dry.. but stay with it.. I promise it will be worth the time and journey.
So fundamental IMHO Should be compulsory viewing in schools.
  • #338
  • Jul 17, 2016 6:26am Jul 17, 2016 6:26am
Quoting eurotrash
{quote} Is their best rebuttal "but it's not as big of a bureaucracy as the US"? The US and Paris bureaucrats are elected presumably and can be replaced; we can elect our own MEPs who can be ignored by the majority that no one in this country voted for... "Dealing with immigration flows." Right, dealing with them how? On whose authority? "Dictatorship of technocrats" sounds about right.
You appear to be unaware that civil servants are not elected? and the substance of yourpost suggests that you have absolutely NO idea of what you are commenting on.
  • #339
  • Jul 17, 2016 6:30am Jul 17, 2016 6:30am
Quoting cliffedwards
{quote} Yes. And I understand how so many people, bright and smart who on seeing it were convinced by its message. Unfortunately having been involved in the business of spin, the selling of ideas, product positioning, researching consumer insecurities and designing advertising messages to exploit the irrational weaknesses. I saw it in a different way. As a great and professionally engineered bit of spin, whos logic could be cracked open like an egg IF, repeat IF you understood the persuasion techniques being applied. Look, I have disagreed with...
Thanks. I will give it a watch.
  • #340
  • Jul 17, 2016 10:40am Jul 17, 2016 10:40am
China has threatened "retaliatory measures" against New Zealand trade, warning it will slow the flow of dairy, wool and kiwifruit imports. The world's biggest trading nation is angry at New Zealand inquiries into a glut of Chinese steel imports flooding the market*

You think China would have been able to lean on NZ were it a member of a bloc like the EU?
I think this sort of vulnerability qualifies as a consequence of Brexit for UK. No?
But NZ isnt the UK..I hear you say.. WE could always send a gunboat up the Yangtze


*source: NZFarmer.co.nz
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