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BREXIT RULES! The Consequences

  • #261
  • Jul 7, 2016 7:21am Jul 7, 2016 7:21am
Quoting theras2000
{quote} "Most young people just want assurance they will have a job and be able to afford bills" If that is true (which I doubt), it's probably why the voted Remain.
Fair point. However the majority of young people that voted were of higher levels of education, less likely to be worried about paying bills and represent the minority of young people. Its a shame the majority didn't come out to vote, but it's rare that you see young people from the working class being interested in politics. That's the culture here. Dumbed down by the media.
  • #262
  • Jul 7, 2016 7:25am Jul 7, 2016 7:25am
Quoting mact4
As a side, I want to thank you all for this interesting thread. No matter which is your side of the debate - I find the differing ideas and arguments very interesting and enlightening. It's even pretty civil - mostly
Yeah.. Thank you. nice compliment..
.. and thanks for that to a lot of good guys here..
very, Devaux, theras2000, triphop, bartlby37, simond2002 Diceman555 naughtypip & more:***
and even the ever offensive Sniper2000.. (well no change there then)..LoL
for making it so.

***(even though they have no idea of what they are talking about.. )
  • #263
  • Edited 8:23am Jul 7, 2016 8:07am | Edited 8:23am
Quoting cliffedwards
{quote} Yeah.. Thank you. nice compliment.. .. and thanks for that to a lot of good guys here.. very, Devaux, theras2000, triphop, bartlby37, simond2002 Diceman555 naughtypip & more:*** and even the ever offensive Sniper2000.. (well no change there then)..LoL for making it so. ***(even though they have no idea of what they are talking about.. )
luv you too. Sorry if I come across offensive.
I might not come from educated stock but Ive made me money ,retired early and now have fun playing the fx and travel. My education is from the school of hard knocks and off the street. One thing it has taught me though is never trust professionals because if they were that good they wouldn't be advising other people what to do with their money. They would be busy making money themselves!
  • #264
  • Jul 7, 2016 8:17am Jul 7, 2016 8:17am
Quoting cliffedwards
{quote} Yeah.. Thank you. nice compliment.. .. and thanks for that to a lot of good guys here.. very, Devaux, theras2000, triphop, bartlby37, simond2002 Diceman555 naughtypip & more:*** and even the ever offensive Sniper2000.. (well no change there then)..LoL for making it so. ***(even though they have no idea of what they are talking about.. )
Thanks mact4 and cliffedwards. The feeling is mutual
  • #265
  • Jul 7, 2016 8:36am Jul 7, 2016 8:36am
Quoting cliffedwards
{quote} I sense in your normally metered and insightful style a growing anger. One Ive sensed among many of my friends and colleagues in the last week, who like me were lulled into the thought that UK voters could never commit such an own goal.
Ha, you'd be right there Cliff. But it's not because of the decision - just the way it's being handled. We can argue about the merits or otherwise of Europe but while most of the debate was about Europe today, I voted on what Europe's going to look like tomorrow. Much as I really hope I'm wrong, the real derailing of the EU I believe is to come.

But the pressing issue is what happens right now. The guv must have heard this argument because they voted last night to keep all eu citizens in the country which is a start. I am still horrified though that there were no contingency plans whatsoever in place to deal with this. The very first day of Brexit there should have been an announcement to existing migrants, a plan of negotiations, a cross-party committee etc. That is the fault of Cameron; irrespective of what he believed, he is/was the bloody Prime Minister.

Other EU countries are circling like sharks around the city, industry, startups, the works, luring them to go and work there so we have a monumental fight on our hands, one where every day we delay and prolong uncertainty, businesses start eyeing up other options.

Labour, or rather Corbyn is making a bad situation worse. They are truly embarrassing themselves. And Lib Dems might as well stay at home with Netflix and popcorn.

Right now we need leadership and speed. I'm guessing May for now until the next referendum is called which is just a matter of time.
Mid term - in the next 6 months or so - we need a national government. Any takers?
  • #266
  • Jul 7, 2016 8:54am Jul 7, 2016 8:54am
Quoting Sniper2000
{quote} luv you too. Sorry if I come across offensive. I might not come from educated stock but Ive made me money ,retired early and now have fun playing the fx and travel. My education is from the school of hard knocks and off the street. One thing it has taught me though is never trust professionals because if they were that good they wouldn't be advising other people what to do with their money. They would be busy making money themselves!
We are not interested in your education, simply your opinion. All are welcome. Democracy in here you know
  • #267
  • Edited 10:40am Jul 7, 2016 9:45am | Edited 10:40am
Quoting Sniper2000
{quote} luv you too. Sorry if I come across offensive. I might not come from educated stock but Ive made me money ,retired early and now have fun playing the fx and travel. My education is from the school of hard knocks and off the street. One thing it has taught me though is never trust professionals because if they were that good they wouldn't be advising other people what to do with their money. They would be busy making money themselves!
Quoting Devauxt
{quote} We are not interested in your education, simply your opinion. All are welcome. Democracy in here you know
Dont mind Devauxt..Hes Irish..LoL
Got a Royalty complex.. hence the "WE" bit..

The University of Life. is the highest degree you can get mate.
Here the most important thing IMHO is that we learn to disagree without rancor.
Thats civilisation. All Good..
  • #268
  • Jul 7, 2016 10:10am Jul 7, 2016 10:10am
Quoting Devauxt
{quote} I might point out that we never voted to be in the EU. We voted to be in the EEC, a trading bloc. Political integration, EU law making and a erosion of UK sovereignty were never in the deal that the UK voted for in the first place or since. You talk about entitlement, but it is the EU who feel that they are entitled to impose these things with out reference to the UK public. Surrender of our Sovereignty an Act of Treason under the 1351 Treason Act and a Praemunire, under the 1392 Act of Praemunire, it is Treason under the 1559 Act of Supremacy...
@Devauxt.. You cant believe Im going to let you away with this..LoL

QUOTE:
".. it is the EU who feel that they are entitled to impose these things with out reference to the UK public"

FACT:
The EU can and have IMPOSED NOTHING that has not been previously agreed, by international treaty drafted, signed and adopted by a democratically constituted Sovereign British Government.
To suggest otherwise is a LIE.
So I guess Ive misunderstood your statement?

The legally elected Government of the United Kingdom as a sovereign Nation, following extensive negotiation and all due dilligence,
signed the the accession treaties in 1973 to join the then EEC. And exercised its options to continue its membership through a further series of legally binding international treaties expanding the scope of that original agreement with its fellow member states in Europe to more clearly and specifically defined conferational governance structure between the multiple sovereign states.
These were.

  1. Single European Act (1986).
  2. Amsterdam Treaty (1997).
  3. Treaty of Lisbon (2007).

Whether the legally constituted UK governments that signed these treaties relied on their democratically derived authority
or should have sought additional constitutional legitimacy through plebiscite was entirely a matter for the UK government
since there was no constitutional requirement that it do so.
The bottom line is to suggest as you have that the EU is responsible in ANY WAY because the British public is unhappy with their governments obligations under International Treaty, is BS.
Any such matter is between the British public and the British Government.

What you suggest is worse than absurd it is deliberatly misleading.
Retract Pls

  • #269
  • Jul 7, 2016 10:37am Jul 7, 2016 10:37am
Quoting triphop
{quote} Ha, you'd be right there Cliff. But it's not because of the decision - just the way it's being handled. We can argue about the merits or otherwise of Europe but while most of the debate was about Europe today, I voted on what Europe's going to look like tomorrow. Much as I really hope I'm wrong, the real derailing of the EU I believe is to come. But the pressing issue is what happens right now. The guv must have heard this argument because they voted last night to keep all eu citizens in the country which is a start. I am still horrified...
Yes . for sure.
There are big challenges ahead for our country.. We need to come together.
Centerist Labour opposition looks like lost cause thanks to Corbyn,
As you say and I though Im apolitical, would agree , May seems best hope.
Someone with hopefully a steady pair of hands.
  • #270
  • Jul 7, 2016 10:49am Jul 7, 2016 10:49am
Quoting cliffedwards
{quote} @Devauxt.. You cant believe Im going to let you away with this..LoL QUOTE: ".. it is the EU who feel that they are entitled to impose these things with out reference to the UK public" FACT: The EU can and have IMPOSED NOTHING that has not been previously agreed, by international treaty drafted, signed and adopted by a democratically constituted Sovereign British Government. To suggest otherwise is a LIE. So I guess Ive misunderstood your statement? The legally elected Government of the United Kingdom as a sovereign Nation, following extensive...
My point is that the EU is no longer what it said on the tin back in 1975. It continues to accrue more power over the sovereign countries without reference to the electorate. That to me is invasion by political means.

It is a Praemunire to subject Her Majesty’s Courts of law to the domination of a foreign court outside of Her Majesty’s control. Parliament may do many things but what it may not do is surrender any of its rights to govern unless we have been defeated in war. The Constitution confers treaty making powers only on the Sovereign and the Sovereign cannot transfer those powers to a foreign power or even our own parliament because they are not the incumbent Sovereigns to give away as they only hold those powers in trust for those who follow on.
  • #271
  • Jul 7, 2016 11:11am Jul 7, 2016 11:11am
Quoting Devauxt
{quote} My point is that the EU is no longer what it said on the tin back in 1975. It continues to accrue more power over the sovereign countries without reference to the electorate. That to me is invasion by political means. It is a Praemunire to subject Her Majestys Courts of law to the domination of a foreign court outside of Her Majestys control. Parliament may do many things but what it may not do is surrender any of its rights to govern unless we have been defeated in war. The Constitution confers treaty making powers only on the Sovereign...
Not interested in your point D..
Interested in your continued publishing of misinformation.. got to stop.

QUOTE:
".. it is the EU who feel that they are entitled to impose these things with out reference to the UK public"

FACT:
The EU can and have IMPOSED NOTHING that has not been previously agreed, by international treaty drafted, signed and adopted by a democratically constituted Sovereign British Government.
To suggest otherwise is a LIE.
So I guess Ive misunderstood your statement?

RETRACT PLEASE
  • #272
  • Edited 12:08pm Jul 7, 2016 11:24am | Edited 12:08pm
Quoting cliffedwards
{quote} Not interested in your point D.. Interested in your continued publishing of misinformation.. got to stop. QUOTE: ".. it is the EU who feel that they are entitled to impose these things with out reference to the UK public" FACT: The EU can and have IMPOSED NOTHING that has not been previously agreed, by international treaty drafted, signed and adopted by a democratically constituted Sovereign British Government. To suggest otherwise is a LIE. So I guess Ive misunderstood your statement? RETRACT PLEASE

Then read "The EU court of Justice and the EU Charter: An independent view by Jesse Norman

The ECJ's stated role is to advance the cause of European integration. And it has continuously expanded its remit. It now routinely interferes in one of the most fundamental duties of an elected government, protecting the security of its citizens. It overruled a 2005 decision by Charles Clarke, then home secretary, to refuse entry to a French national known to be involved in terrorism.

The EU’s Charter of Fundamental Rights, made legally binding at Lisbon, has given the Court the perfect tool to meet its ambitions. The British government claimed to have won an opt-out from this charter, saying it had no more legal force than the Beano. However, in 2011, the ECJ, ruling on the case of an Afghan asylum seeker, simply brushed aside the opt-out as having no legal force.

In 2013, when the government was trying to refuse entry to a known terrorist with a French passport, the ECJ ruled in his favour after his lawyers argued that under the charter he was entitled to know the grounds for excluding him, potentially compromising sensitive intelligence.

An Act of Parliament described by the Home Secretary as “crucial to fighting crime, protecting children and combating terrorism” is in jeopardy because of the unaccountable judges in Luxembourg. The ECJ is going to rule soon, on whether the Data Protection and Regulatory Powers Act (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/11768166/Even-if-we-scrap-the-Human-Rights-Act-well-still-be-beholden-to-EU-laws.html), passed in 2014, after long parliamentary debates, is consistent with the charter. As a consequence, parts of the Act may be struck down.
  • #273
  • Jul 7, 2016 11:50am Jul 7, 2016 11:50am
Quoting cliffedwards
{quote} FACT: The EU can and have IMPOSED NOTHING that has not been previously agreed, by international treaty drafted, signed and adopted by a democratically constituted Sovereign British Government.
Does that mean: The Brexiteers can and have IMPOSED NOTHING on the Remainers that has not been previously agreed, and adopted by a democratically constituted Sovereign British Government.?
  • #274
  • Jul 7, 2016 11:54am Jul 7, 2016 11:54am
Quoting Kubez
{quote} Does that mean: The Brexiteers can and have IMPOSED NOTHING on the Remainers that has not been previously agreed, and adopted by a democratically constituted Sovereign British Government.?
No it means exactly what it says in the original post and context in which it was posted?
I dont understand your question?
  • #275
  • Jul 7, 2016 2:07pm Jul 7, 2016 2:07pm
Hey Cliff,

I guess it was more of a retort than a question. I think that the EU are imposing legislation on us with the help of the British government and I don't trust either of them.

In post 114, you said "..and clearly London, Scotland and N Ireland are going to be dragged screaming down this path with you..", this seems to me that you are implying that they are having something imposed upon them. Then you say that you can't have something imposed upon you if you have agreed before hand, and the referendum, for better or worse was agreed upon, regardless if it was non binding. The referendum was probably the reason Cameron got a majority in the first place. I guess in a similar way that Blair never imposed an illegal war on us either because he was elected. Just because the people in government were voted in does not mean they can't impose anything. I think that is what you are saying, right?

EU commissioners, who propose EU legislation are bound by their oath of office to represent the general interest of the EU as a whole rather than their home state. I take this to mean that the laws that they propose are not in the best interests of the member states, unless you are one of the states driving policy because not all member states are equal, even though they should be in a democracy. I don't suppose that Merkel inviting a million people in was not imposing on anyone either.

I am wary of the consolidation of power and would rather see power devolved closer to the local level.

I think the EU referendum is Boaty McBoatface to the nth degree.
  • #276
  • Jul 11, 2016 8:38am Jul 11, 2016 8:38am
Quoting theras2000
{quote} Come on ITSALLOVER do some homework. If London remained in the EU and the rest of UK left, it would not be stuck with all the " entire costs". It would negotiate a new deal for the EU membership fee which would be much less than the current fee for all of the UK. London is well placed to be able to afford this. London has approximately 13.% of the UK's population but creates about 22% of UK GDP (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_London). ie the UK needs London not the other way around.
lol
EU cannot just pick what they want from the UK - a la carte ,,,,, London is not up for grabs
.... laughing all the way to the bank
  • #277
  • Jul 11, 2016 8:47am Jul 11, 2016 8:47am
Interesting listening on Radio 4 this morning
"The philosopher Onora O'Neill criticises the standard of public debate on both sides of the European Union decision and asks how this democratic deficit can be repaired. "
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07l24cr#play
  • #278
  • Jul 11, 2016 9:02am Jul 11, 2016 9:02am
Quoting Kubez
I am wary of the consolidation of power and would rather see power devolved closer to the local level.
I'd agree with that statement. The problem I have with it, is that small democratic organisations are often at odds with much larger and very powerful organisations - be that other nation states, multi-national corporations, WTO etc.

This was my whole problem with the referendum - I could see some things that probably needed to be dealt with at a supra-national level (corporate tax avoidance, environmental protection, workers rights) in order to prevent powerful interests playing countries off against each other in a race to the bottom. And there were other things where I thought the interference of a supra-national body was wholly against the interests of those affected (Greece unable to devalue or default, completely unfettered free-movement of people - I'm not against free movement but, in a rapidly expanding EU, without careful management, its introduction was always going to create huge problems).
  • #279
  • Jul 11, 2016 9:11am Jul 11, 2016 9:11am
Quoting meyoik
{quote} Clearly you don't understand the difference between a forum like this, and your facebook page. You open your mouth without knowing the facts, invent numbers to spice up your post and attract attention, and then attack (by kicking, screaming, and throwing tantrums) those that call you out on it. You are now throwing all kinds of numbers left and right, and have no idea what they mean. How have you come up with the proportions? There is nothing in your posts indicating any of that....just a lot of noise, nothing concrete. How on Earth does...

You really need to upgrade your comprehension skills.

The ONS - whose link I provided with the statistics is the executive office of the UK Statistics Authority (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_Statistics_Authority), a non-ministerial department (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-ministerial_department) which reports directly to the UK Parliament (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliament_of_the_United_Kingdom).
It is independent !!!!!!!!!!!!

How a nincompoop like you can even question their authority beggars belief !!!!

Now listen carefully.
The 350 Million a week that has been mentioned is the sum of money the UK pledges to the EU. Some of that money comes back to the UK and is paid to our institutions , farmers etc ( also to BBC who are a very loud mouthpiece for the EU )

That is why my post clearly stated the UK contribution as 10 Billion after rebates and any other monies paid back to the UK.

A few posts down you seemed to have agreed with another posters figure of slightly over 8 Billion as our contribution to the EU ,,,,, so maybe you are the one who is not to be believed . Drama Queen!!!!

Now if you would like me to make up for the shortfall of the 10 Billion that I posted - last year 2016 the UK got fined a further 1.7 Billion by the EU, on top of our annual contributions, because our economy exceeded forecasts. So now the mafia that is the EU also penalises nations when they perform better - you couldn't make this stuff up.
.... laughing all the way to the bank
  • #280
  • Jul 11, 2016 10:08am Jul 11, 2016 10:08am
Quoting meyoik
{quote} Clearly you don't understand the difference between a forum like this, and your facebook page. You open your mouth without knowing the facts, invent numbers to spice up your post and attract attention, and then attack (by kicking, screaming, and throwing tantrums) those that call you out on it. You are now throwing all kinds of numbers left and right, and have no idea what they mean. How have you come up with the proportions? There is nothing in your posts indicating any of that....just a lot of noise, nothing concrete. How on Earth does...

,,,,, before I go,,,

,,,,there's a conundrum that maybe you could offer some assistance with ,,,seeing as you were so keen on the idea of a second referendum ,,,,

There 's this obscure city,,,, I never knew it existed until the petition for a second referendum got traction,,,, this city has a population of 800 people and as far as I know is not part of the Uk. Yet,,,,, yet ,,,,,for some strange reason our petition for a second referendum was signed by 44,000 people from this city.

I only ask because your profile says you are from the Vatican city,,,,,, did you see all these 44,000 people??????,,, you surely couldn't have missed them , ,,,I mean the poor city must have been heaving with the sheer volume of visitors from the UK who decided to go and sign this petition on the same day in the Vatican City ??????
.... laughing all the way to the bank
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