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Attachments: BREXIT RULES! The Consequences
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BREXIT RULES! The Consequences

  • #201
  • Jul 5, 2016 5:00am Jul 5, 2016 5:00am
Quoting cliffedwards
Its the biggest Establishment stitch-up in UK democratic history. I am indeed a very angry man this morning.
I fear this may well be true - Osborne's first response is to cut corporation tax - in a country that already has a large budget deficit this will almost certainly lead to more cuts in the sort of public services that we all, and especially those at the bottom of the economic pile (a majority of whom voted for Brexit), rely. How long has he been waiting for an excuse to do that?

Sterling dropping again today - apparently this will benefit exports - except that many of the manufactured goods we export are built using imported parts so the effect may well be muted.

My anger is directed mainly at politicians both conservative and labour who, either before the event or subsequent to it, have seen in this an opportunity to further their own careers and used this whole mess for their own selfish ends. The cynicism of our political class beggars belief - watching Ian Duncan Smith being interviewed after the result and being asked about the £350 million for the NHS claim and he simply denies he ever made that claim despite being shown footage of himself speaking in front of posters saying just that. The fact that they appear to have had no plan beyond winning the vote/leadership contest is staggering - and we'll get a new PM voted for by just 150,000 people - it's a triumph of democracy - and that PM saying there won't be a general election - after all who would want to be in office for such a short length of time.

Boris writing in yesterday's Telegraph saying the government needed to come out and tell people the truth about what Brexit will mean - Come now Boris are you suggesting you didn't do that during your campaign? Farage resigns from UKIP leadership - I guess he'll just have to make do for a few years on the salary of an MEP.

Rant over.
  • #202
  • Jul 5, 2016 8:46am Jul 5, 2016 8:46am
Quoting cliffedwards
This thread is a about consequences. For most people the consequences of Brexit are vague, and will only become clear over time. However it has come through to me that for some, the unbelievable stupidity of this decision, is having immediate serious consequences.
What an offensive post.

It's all very well doing your angry man routine but let's break this down point by point.

Quoting cliffedwards
I have tried throughout to approach the Brexit issue dispassionately. I no longer can. I post this morning as a very angry man. And in the coming days weeks and months I fully expect to become part of a very angry majority of UK citizens
Are you going to be getting angry from England or from Switzerland?

Quoting cliffedwards
Brexiteers that now increasingly realize the size of the Pup they were sold.
Bullshit. The people that voted out did so on their conscience. They had spent the time informing themselves of the pros and cons, and were and are willing to take the risk of exit. If they'd voted solely on the "Pup" they were sold, we'd still be in. Did you see the level of "unbiased" reporting in the British media in the run up to the vote? It was absurd.

Quoting cliffedwards
EU citizens working and living in the UK. (who represent 7% of the working population of the uK.. more productive and who percapita pay more tax than UK native citizens
Do you realize how prejudiced you're sounding? And as far as the tax situation is concerned - it's not black and white. For example, there is data suggesting that EU nationals working here are more likely to claim tax credits and child allowance than "UK native citizens". I also believe (though I stand to be corrected on this), that in certain circumstances, EU workers returning "home" are able to claim tax rebates.

Quoting cliffedwards
I read and listen every day to the... Ignorance of legislative process, Ignorance of operation of FMoL and Shenken issues that dont effect UK, ignorance of their debt to EU consumer, employment and Human rights laws, and on and on.
Yea, but where are you getting your information from? The EU is awash with legislation - a stack of it, so much of it in fact, and so far-reaching that we don't even realise until we meet it head on. I'll give you an example. I occasionally do building work. A couple of months ago I installed a new bathroom. When I went to purchase the toilet I noticed how small the cistern was. So small in fact that I was worried it wouldn't even flush properly. And so I raised my concerns with the showroom manager, and guess what his response was?, "it's EU legislation".

Quoting cliffedwards
The true cost of the insanity of this "democratic" Brexit cluster-fkuc has been now belatedly appreciated by the twin judas goats (Farage and Boris) that led a very ignorant and rightly frustrated British electorate into this... with a toxic mix of lies, misrepresentation xenophobia and jingoism.
There you go again, use of the word "ignorant" when talking about the people who voted to leave. You're beginning to sound like a real "lefty" - the sort that love the idea of democracy until it goes against them. Democracy is divide and rule. Deal with it.

Quoting cliffedwards
Their reluctance to take responsibility for the cluster-fkus they have created speaks for itself. I laugh at the people who desperate for change have been taken in by the idea that Brexit was a blow against the establishment? Its the biggest Establishment stitch-up in UK democratic history.
This I agree with. On the day the result was announced, the expressions on Gove's and Johnson's faces said as much. But what did you expect; it's the "establishment", right?
  • #203
  • Jul 5, 2016 9:07am Jul 5, 2016 9:07am
Quoting simond2002
A couple of months ago I installed a new bathroom. When I went to purchase the toilet I noticed how small the cistern was. So small in fact that I was worried it wouldn't even flush properly. And so I raised my concerns with the showroom manager, and guess what his response was?, "it's EU legislation".
Was the showroom manager an expert on the subject? I ask simply because blaming EU legislation has become an easy answer to so many questions over the years. That said it may well be EU legislation but why is there such legislation and who pushes for it and why?

In the last year I became aware of EU legislation regarding vacuum cleaners. Sir James Dyson cried foul because he didn't like the way suction was measured under these rules. However the rules came about because a number of member states had introduced their own rules regarding power output, performance etc. It meant that a manufacturer meeting the rules in one country might then be at a competitive disadvantage in another country where different rules apply. The solution is either for manufacturers to make different models for different countries or to harmonise the rules. The first option increases costs for manufacturers and so consumers. The second option ensures a single European market where goods manufactured in one country can be sold in any other country within that market without disadvantage. It's very possible that regulations for toilets have followed a similar path.

I also wonder how much less legislation we'll actually have - many of the areas that are subject to EU legislation weren't free of legislation before and, as we untie ourselves from EU legislation, will need to be re-legislated by parliament. I saw a suggestion of 25 bills per parliament for the next 10 years. One of the tricks European politicians have learned over the past 20 years is to pass blame to Brussels for anything they knew would have to be done and which they knew would be unpopular - well maybe our democracy will be better served when that cover is removed.
  • #204
  • Jul 5, 2016 9:12am Jul 5, 2016 9:12am
Quoting bartlby37
That said it may well be EU legislation but why is there such legislation and who pushes for it and why?
EU’s ideal standard for lavatory flushing (The Times) (http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/politics/article3909088.ece)
  • #205
  • Jul 5, 2016 9:14am Jul 5, 2016 9:14am
Quoting simond2002
{quote} What an offensive post. It's all very well doing your angry man routine but let's break this down point by point. {quote} Are you going to be getting angry from England or from Switzerland? {quote} Bullshit. The people that voted out did so on their conscience. They had spent the time informing themselves of the pros and cons, and were and are willing to take the risk of exit. If they'd voted solely on the "Pup" they were sold, we'd still be in. Did you see the level of "unbiased" reporting in the British media in the run up to the vote?...
Very well said. To Cliffedwards. He was probably one of those who betted against UK going out and has lost his shirt or is going to lose his job. He needs to breathe deep and relax before he has a heart attack.
  • #206
  • Jul 5, 2016 9:19am Jul 5, 2016 9:19am
Quoting honestknave
{quote} EUs ideal standard for lavatory flushing (The Times) (http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/politics/article3909088.ece)
Haha - was just in the middle of typing a post to bartlby then saw your (brilliant) response
  • #207
  • Jul 5, 2016 9:29am Jul 5, 2016 9:29am
Quoting honestknave
{quote} EUs ideal standard for lavatory flushing (The Times) (http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/politics/article3909088.ece)
Brilliant.
  • #208
  • Jul 5, 2016 9:32am Jul 5, 2016 9:32am
Quoting cliffedwards
{quote}
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/politics/article3909088.ece
  • #209
  • Jul 5, 2016 9:35am Jul 5, 2016 9:35am
Quoting honestknave
{quote} EUs ideal standard for lavatory flushing (The Times) (http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/politics/article3909088.ece)
And was it Eurocrats or multinationals that wanted these things standardised?
  • #210
  • Jul 5, 2016 9:37am Jul 5, 2016 9:37am
Quoting Sniper2000
{quote} http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/politics/article3909088.ece
So I guess one of the "consequences" of Brexit is we'll no longer need to "double flush"
  • #211
  • Edited 12:18pm Jul 5, 2016 11:15am | Edited 12:18pm
Quoting simond2002
{quote} What an offensive post. It's all very well doing your angry man routine but let's break this down point by point. {quote} Are you going to be getting angry from England or from Switzerland? {quote} Bullshit. The people that voted out did so on their conscience. They had spent the time informing themselves of the pros and cons, and were and are willing to take the risk of exit. If they'd voted solely on the "Pup" they were sold, we'd still be in. Did you see the level of "unbiased" reporting in the British media in the run up to the vote?...
First let me apologies for any imprudent language and any offence I may have caused.
its neither my style nor my standard.

1. That said let me return your compliment of "breaking down" my post by breaking down your response.

2. Your England/Swiss crack is unworthy. Where I choose to live is my business, my citizenship is not open to debate or your prejudice.

3. On the subject of Media Bias.. do you seriously dispute that large sectors of the press totally gave up on properly informing the public.?
That the Mail, Sun, Express and Star and to a lesser extent the Telegraph and even theTimes occasionally, became propaganda sheets for the Brexit side of the argument.
That Rupert Murdoch made sure the Sun was used to reflect his Brexit opinions and the Barclays in their Channel Island tax exile fed a relentless diet of anti-EU front-pages?
In February YouGov found that the UK media was the most right wing biased in Europe
In May in a study of 928 articles analysed by the Reuters Institute for the Study of Journalism (http://reutersinstitute.politics.ox.ac.uk/news/study-shows-majority-press-coverage-eu-referendum-campaign-was-heavily-skewed-favour-brexit), 45 per cent were in favour of leaving while 27 per cent were in favour of staying?
Initial and as yet unpublished analysis closer to the vote-date sho no variation on this pattern. And historic analysis over a decade by reputable unbiased institutions show no variation from that same pattern. Or do you dispute that media play no part in creating consumer opinion bias?

4. On the matter of "sounding prejudiced" in relation to the contribution of EU citizens working in the UK. I make no apology for FACTS or the conclusions they point to.
My point in raising the issue was to highlight that these migrants are NOT burdens on UK society as they were characterized by the unscrupulous.in the Leave campaign.
They are PAYING their WAY, at least as much as native UK citizens, while greatly contributing to the UK economy and in particular to social service delivery, to the benefit of all..
Unlike non EU migrants over which the UK government has had total control since forever?.. and about which there has been little comment or criticism.

5.In the matter of standards and regulation on goods and services any basic study of free trade area management will explain why extensive attention to detail in this area is essential to maintain a flat playingfield.to the advantage of the consumer. As to your example, I really cant comment on the expertise of your building suppliers showroom manager. The idea of a dysfunctional EU "regulated" WC is Pythonesque. I defer to your sense of the ridiculous. Not flushing properly as a result of EU design imperfections is absurd. And I say that as someone thats spent time as a director of a large fit-out company. I fully respect your experience but with respect, and not to be rude, I would suggest that he was engaging in the British game popularized by the political establishment, of blaming everything theyve screw up, ... on the EU. ??

6. Finally I note your exception to my use of the the word "ignorance" . Its not my intention to give offense. Nor my style. So lets be PC and get the semantics out of the way.
I am happy to re-frame those references as "incomprehension" a common synonym for the original word. I trust this satisfies your sensitivities.
It does not however detract from the core thrust of my observations, that the level of comprehension of ALL voters in the referendum but particularly those recruited to the populist Leave ticket, given the complexity of the decision and enormity of its potential consequences, was hugely inadequate.on which to make an informed decision.
Over the next months I like many others, look forward to the publishing of independent analysis on the levels of deliberate misinformation (am I allow to say LIES) indulged in on both sides but to my contemporaneous and then nonpartisan count, predominantly by Leave campaigners.
IMHO, the exercise of true democracy requires that voters have access to relevant balanced information on the nature and consequences of their choices.
This has been clearly in deficit in this case.
  • #212
  • Edited 11:34am Jul 5, 2016 11:19am | Edited 11:34am
Quoting honestknave
{quote} EUs ideal standard for lavatory flushing (The Times) (http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/politics/article3909088.ece)
Lol..

Hey HK we need more regulations like this. . .
Memories caught in time but never forgotten
  • #213
  • Jul 5, 2016 11:56am Jul 5, 2016 11:56am
Quoting cliffedwards
{quote} First let me apologies for any imprudent language and any offence I may have caused. its neither my style nor my standard. 1. That said let me return your compliment of "breaking down" my post by breaking down your response. 2. Your England/Swiss crack is unworthy. Where I choose to live is my business, my citizenship is not open to debate or your prejudice. 3. On the subject of Media Bias.. do you seriously dispute that large sectors of the press totally gave up on properly informing the public.? That the Mail, Sun, Express and Star and...
Honestly, no apology needed.

If, as somebody who’s claiming dual-nationality, you’re going to spit feathers in public on an issue that is in large part about English/British sovereignty then yes, my England/Swiss crack is entirely worthy.

On the subject of media bias, I don’t pay attention to the newspapers that you’re quoting so I can’t comment in detail, but maybe, just maybe, these articles and stats you’re posting reflected the mood that a majority of the population we’re feeling - out really means out.

On the subject of PC - no, don’t be PC. Use the word “ignorant” all you like. But if you fail to be specific and tar the entire “leave” side with that brush then expect to be pulled up on it.

And in MY humble opinion true democracy is direct democracy, which in fact is the very reason I made the England/Swiss gag. I hope it doesn't go over your head a second time.
  • #214
  • Jul 5, 2016 1:04pm Jul 5, 2016 1:04pm
Quoting simond2002
{quote} the England/Swiss gag. (?) I hope it doesn't go over your head a second time.
No the problem in Switzerland is that cracks have such a problem achieving alpine altitude.. that going over ones head is much less a problem, than falling short of ones e
expectations.. LoL

Hey @simond2002, why, instead of wasting our time sparring on this goldfish bowl, we get together and write a political satire?
  • #215
  • Jul 6, 2016 1:54am Jul 6, 2016 1:54am
Quoting cliffedwards
Hey @simond2002, why, instead of wasting our time sparring on this goldfish bowl, we get together and write a political satire?
As long as it includes a gag about a 3L dual flush lavatory
  • #216
  • Jul 6, 2016 2:16am Jul 6, 2016 2:16am
Irvine Welch writing in the Guardian

"let’s remember that no democrat can defend the commission-led EU, and nobody in the remain camp had a serious reforming vision of Europe (https://www.theguardian.com/world/europe-news), any more than those in leave offer much of clue as to what they’ll do with their increasingly hollow-looking victory.

Remain’s leaders would have kept us straitjacketed into the EU’s current death-by-a-thousand-cuts version of corporate neoliberalism. At least now, shed of that distraction, we have our governmental elites much more clearly in our sights. How smaller, shabbier and curiously more vulnerable they look, without that EU cloak they avowed to detest draped around their shoulders. And this is as it should be, as they’ve basically put everything into play."

Full article here: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/06/beauty-beneath-brexit-bedwetting-leave-vote-diversity-genuine-change
  • #217
  • Jul 6, 2016 8:27am Jul 6, 2016 8:27am
For Information..
Some interesting independent analysis on Media Bias.

Attached Image
  • #218
  • Jul 6, 2016 9:12am Jul 6, 2016 9:12am
Quoting cliffedwards
For Information.. Some interesting independent analysis on Media Bias. {image}
By implication, there wasn't much in the way of positive arguments in favour of Remain
  • #219
  • Edited 12:26pm Jul 6, 2016 9:53am | Edited 12:26pm
Quoting cliffedwards
For Information.. Some interesting independent analysis on Media Bias. {image}
How does this say anything about media bias if there is no analysis of the content? The media could be saying Remain is great, and Leave would lead to apocalypse.

Of course we know that isn't the case, but the research would at face value suggest the Daily Mail was strongly Leave - new and exciting information, well worth researching .

I have a good laugh at what passes as research these days, this is particularly sloppy.

Tabloids are known to be biased. Independent broadcasters though like the BBC, they are supposed to be neutral and that is where you look if you want to uncover bias.


Edit - so this is the full report.
https://blog.lboro.ac.uk/crcc/eu-referendum/uk-news-coverage-2016-eu-referendum-report-5-6-may-22-june-2016/

There are actually two graphs, with key findings at the bottom

Attached Image

Attached Image


Your graph is weighted by circulation...
Post the entire thing in future, it shows your bias that you don't.
  • #220
  • Jul 6, 2016 10:35am Jul 6, 2016 10:35am
Quoting verv
{quote} How does this say anything about media bias if the content is unknown? The media could be saying Remain is great, and Leave would lead to apocalypse. Of course we know that isn't the case, but the research would at face value suggest the Daily Mail was strongly Leave - new and exciting information, well worth researching . I have a good laugh at what passes as research these days, this is particularly sloppy. Tabloid are known to be biased, independent broadcasters though like the BBC, they are supposed to be neutral and that is where...
Why dont you simply say you dispute it? And on what grounds?
Basing your remarks on the admission that you dont understand it,
isnt terribly helpful given that the source is published.
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