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Trading without stop-losses

  • #301
  • Edited 7:06pm Jan 5, 2016 5:57pm | Edited 7:06pm
Quoting forexintradi
{quote} I suspected you on't have much grey matter, now I know you don't have any education too. Bye
But what you didn't suspect is the truth that I have a strategy working fine that doesn't use SL idiota! lol
And that doesn't need grey matter it needs green bills which seems like you don't know how to make and you think everyone is a loser like yourself!
  • #302
  • Edited 6:58pm Jan 5, 2016 6:45pm | Edited 6:58pm
Hi tashkent,

This is such a touchy subject to commented on. I am not choking on your ball sack.
I am just gonna toss in my 2 cents as reference and reference only. I hope it somewhat helpful at certain extend to whoever is reading it.

Quoting tashkent
no stop loss trading is possible. there are many ways of doing it. usually price comes back to the entry point and using stop loss is just waste of money. however, there are times the trend is too strong and you are stuck with your losing position. in such cases, you can use specific methods to avoid loss.
Do you mean average your lost? Let's just kill this option first before we even begin.

Quoting tashkent
one method among many is hedging. if you are in a negative position, instead of bailing out with loss, you can hedge that trade and ride the trend in the opposite direction until market starts moving in the original position's direction. keep cashing the profit and rinse and repeat until you break even or make profit.
Many brokers does not offer hedging. For the ones do, they will not get much profit out of these hedged position since traders is waiting (out their lost) instead of continue trading. They would charge you commission for every trade you placed on top of the spares. For instant, FX Broker based in Russia does this and they allow hedging.

Hedging is disabled for ALL US Brokers. So this is not an option for US traders.

Quoting tashkent
martingale is another trade management even though almost everybody (including me) is wary of because of it's high risk.
I'd like to believe Martingale is just a strategy of playing this game. It is not a money management or risk management. Double down your bet in a flowed system is not anywhere close to risk management.
Plenty gamblers have lost their bank using Martingale in Las Vegas.

Quoting tashkent
it's all up to the trader if prefers to use sl or not. because only he knows what his risk tolerance is.
Sorry I wouldn't agree on this.
I'd like to day they don't put down a SL because they don't know when, where and how (the limits in their plans). As for me, being there, done that.

They don't know what they are risking because most of them is always focus on the profit instead of risk. a SL hit means they are "WRONG"; if there is no sl, they are "never wrong" or "one day they would profit", this is the emotional barrier traders have a very hard time to overcome. Of course, who likes to lost or being wrong?

If they have any sense of risk or "Not to lose 10% on any of the position under any circumstances whatsoever", a sl will be put down on every trade he placed. Right?

For example, if I don't want my account to have over 5% DD, I will have a 5% risk place on every single trade I placed no matter how confident I am about the position I placed.

Quoting tashkent
disclaimer. hedging and martingale is ONLY for experienced traders who can use them skilfully. any misuse will kill your account faster than anything.
Quoting tashkent
any misuse will kill your account faster than anything.
Putting SL will buy you enough time to get a turn-around. It won't fix the problem in your system, but it would sure extend your account lifespan before your figured out the next "click" in your system.

In conclusion, and this goes to you all, If you all confident in your system and the position you placed, placing a sl won't hurt you.
Don't take out or blame the SL that is killing your account consistently, work on your system with the sl rules.

Think SL in terms of risk management instead of capital management, perhaps you'd understand the importance having a SL on every position you place.
If u luv happiness, start w/ discomfort, make friends w/ pain and failure.
100 Hits 0 Miss All Time Return: 35.8%
  • #303
  • Jan 5, 2016 7:01pm Jan 5, 2016 7:01pm
[quote=FXSayWhat;
"Putting SL will buy you enough time to get a turn-around. It won't fix the problem in your system, but it would sure extend the lifespan on your account before your figured out the next "click" in your system."

1) If you are expecting a "turn around" and hence why you have a stop loss you have no idea what you are doing as a trader. The turn around may never occur!
2) If there is a problem with your system then you are foolish to be trading it. Scrap it and look for something that works.
3) If you are expecting the SL to extend the lifespan of your account then you are NOT expecting your account to grow, no offence but that implies you don't know what you are doing!
4) If you are relying on the next "click" then all you are doing is preying and hoping to improve on your performance based on something that is not working. A person must be insane to be repeating something that isn't working. Skip it, accept the loss and look for something that works. Don't look for something better!

Do you like my conclusion based on your thinking? That is your truth and your reality!

The way you are thinking is like this which is totally wrong. If I have 30% winners then if I reverse the trades where I have a long I go short and visa versa I should have 70% winners. You must be the smartest trader if you think that lol
  • #304
  • Jan 5, 2016 7:02pm Jan 5, 2016 7:02pm
Quoting FXSayWhat
Hi tashkent, This is such a touchy subject to commented on. I am not choking on your ball sack. I am just gonna toss in my 2 cents as reference and reference only. I hope it somewhat helpful at certain extend to whoever is reading it. {quote} Do you mean average your lost? Let's just kill this option first before we even begin. {quote} Many brokers does not offer hedging. For the ones do, they will not get much profit out of these hedged position since traders is waiting (out their lost) instead of continue trading. They would charge you commission...
Great Response!
Hats off, Sir!
We can discuss this pages and pages but at the end I will still state that having a stop loss is a very special matter of every and each trader. It is just like advising a grown up man in intimate matters with his partner. I am for not to get involved in people's intimate matters. That is all
As Above, So Below
  • #305
  • Edited 9:04pm Jan 5, 2016 7:16pm | Edited 9:04pm
Quoting forexintradi
If you mean you can trade the way whatever you want...yes, of course. But if the point is what is safer, more profitable, and advisable...then sorry, but trading with SL is what it should be...the TP can be mental only if you are in front of the screen all the time, however I prefer to set i up from beginning too (even when sometimes I move it).
Quoting forexintradi
I thinks SL is like having a seat belt, in case thinks go wrong and your money is going to crash, you prevent the hit break you...
forexintradi, good comment. thank you. I would like to define the risk before place the trade. This way we know where our bottom lines are when things go south, anything we have absolutely no ability to predict.

Quoting matthewuk
I think trading without SL is, like somebody mentioned before, like driving a car without brakes. You may go through everyday trading without losses, but eventually you hit a loss that's gonna eat up all the profits and even more. I tried that and zeroed my account in a few days.
Yeah, trading without a sl + euphoria is the most deadly combo. So be careful.
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Quoting gabanda
just like what i said, u need to improve ur analysis skill to predict the price movement, more great hur analys then more big ur chance to make profit and u will place ur SL at the best position. no one know 100% where the price will move, but anyone can predict the price movement by do some analysis they believe can predict the price movement.
gabanda, sl is not just protecting you from the price change. It also protect you from any outbreaks. For instance, natural disaster, terrorist attack, sudden bank calls. The lastest example would be last year EURCHF move, without a SL, your broker is done, so do many of the long EURCHF who hold long without SL.
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One call from the CHF on 1/25/2015 resulted 3300+ pips drop. Did you all forgot? Did you all still remember those who held Long position without a SL?

If you are interested, i'd suggest you continue look what happen to the market after 9/11, Japan earthquake and Nuclear leak, AUD flood couple years back and most resent China rate cut series.
If u luv happiness, start w/ discomfort, make friends w/ pain and failure.
100 Hits 0 Miss All Time Return: 35.8%
  • #306
  • Jan 5, 2016 8:07pm Jan 5, 2016 8:07pm
It can be done, only if the trading system allows it. There are ppl keeping positions for 6+ months, while hedging and constantly covering the losses from a trade they didn't use stop loss on...it's an alien strategy, especially here where 90% of traders claim to trade 1min-1H charts. But yes it can be done. Usually on longer timeframes.

Also very small time frames (as I like to call it "extreme daytrading") don't require stoplosses since average trading time (entry,exit) is less than 5 mins.

For me, stop loss has several "functions":

a) obviously, prevents the margin call by triggering, or in short - stops the bad trade from developing.
b) it DEFINES my profit target - system I'm trading requires my profit target to be larger than my stop loss size. (I'm in daily charts, I absolutely need the SL)
c) stop loss size defines trailing - how am I gonna trail a position in profit with a miniscule stop loss size? - I need to open some space for potential counter-moves. Therefore the optimum SL size for positions which are to be ridden for maximum profit needs to be evaluated. For example if my SL size is say.. 100 pips, and my trade is 200 pips in the green, I would set a trailing of approximately 100 pips, so the next counter-move of 100 pips would "stop me out" - force me to take profit.

For beginner traders, the absence of stop-losses is usually a reflection of egoism, or a reflection of lack of knowledge of their trading platform basics.

I know a few traders who lost their accounts on flash crash in 2008 or 2009 (I forgot when it was exactly). I also know a trader who had a stop loss but it "skipped" it

Long story short - make it your discipline to put it on - same like condom when having sex with unfamiliar women.
And familiar too

One more thing, regarding stoplosses - when you start moving it around - ask yourself why are you doing it. That being said I'll point to "b)" again - not only it defines profit target but defines the trade in general - consistent profits, in vast majority of cases, need to come from consistent system/strategy - and there is no such a thing as consistent system without a stop loss.
  • #307
  • Jan 5, 2016 8:32pm Jan 5, 2016 8:32pm
FXsaywhat, it is easy to know when someone knows what is talking about. All your comments make sense and I agree 100%. Also your writing is respectul. It is a pleasure reading you. Thank you.
  • #308
  • Jan 5, 2016 8:51pm Jan 5, 2016 8:51pm
FXsaywhat, wow thanks for the information bro, im new to know about that SL can protect us from any outbreaks. that very nice information ill told my friend about this soon.
  • #309
  • Jan 5, 2016 8:58pm Jan 5, 2016 8:58pm
Quoting FXSayWhat
{quote} {quote} forexintradi, good comment. thank you. I would like to define the risk before place the trade. This way we know where our bottom lines are when things go south, anything we have absolutely no ability to predict. {quote} Yeah, trading without a sl + euphoria is the most deadly combo. So be careful. {image} {quote} gabanda, sl is not just protecting you from the price change. It also protect you from any outbreaks. For instance, natural disaster, terrorist attack, sudden bank calls. The last example would be last year EURCHF move,...

YOU FORGOT TO ADD THAT WHEN THE MARKET DROPPED (I.E GAPPED DOWN) SUDDENLY SO MANY PIPS ALL STOP LOSSES WERE BYPASSED ALL MARKET ORDERS WERE NOT FILLED etc ...this alone shows that YOU have NO idea what you are talking about lol
but like I said if you are a good trader you would have known this already right?
  • #310
  • Jan 5, 2016 9:07pm Jan 5, 2016 9:07pm
Quoting tradability
{quote} But what you didn't suspect is the truth that I have a strategy working fine that doesn't use SL idiota! lol And that doesn't need grey matter it needs green bills which seems like you don't know how to make and you think everyone is a loser like yourself!
No comments, your words speak up load enough about who you are. Now, excuse me I am going to read the comments of some other trader comments, like FXSaywhat, Demoantares, etc...qho onviously know what are talking about and it is wrrh it to be read (regardles they have some education....lol). Good luck....but unfortunately your big mouth and lack of respect and your lack of knowledge of course will take you directly to the 95% of traders that loose money (well, no doubt you are deep there already). Hasta la vista baby!!!
  • #311
  • Jan 5, 2016 9:31pm Jan 5, 2016 9:31pm
here is the live example of one of the most dramatic recent events: usdchf dropped exactly 1 886 pips. i know many people who can easily handle 2 000 pips drawdown. this example shows how using sl is important.
But I seriously doubt anybody here understands that this example also proves how important not using stop loss is when you have a solid risk management considering risk of ruin.
think it this way, if someone had 100, 500 or 1000 pips sl, he would lose shit a lot of money. at the same time, this real example shows that someone who can handle 2000 pips drawdown would have easily recovered all losses plus great profit if used martingale in less then 8 weeks.
this is the very reason why nobody has a fcking right to judge somebody else's trading style or methods or tell someone if he should use stop loss or should not.
if you use stop loss, great. but never tell others that your way is the absolute correct way of of doing it. because it is fcking not. there are just TOO many ways of a doing things.
PS. I personally use or do not use stop loss depending on the TOO many factors of my trade, which apparently some have no clue how many factors may exist to manage a simple trade.
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As Above, So Below
  • #312
  • Jan 5, 2016 9:55pm Jan 5, 2016 9:55pm
Quoting tashkent
here is the live example of one of the most dramatic recent events: usdchf dropped exactly 1 886 pips. i know many people who can easily handle 2 000 pips drawdown. this example shows how using sl is important. But I seriously doubt anybody here understands that this example also proves how important not using stop loss is when you have a solid risk management considering risk of ruin. think it this way, if someone had 100, 500 or 1000 pips sl, he would lose shit a lot of money. at the same time, this real example shows that someone who can handle...
The thing that I have noticed is that virtually all the people who speak with expert authority here and give strong opinions about what others should or should not do, don't share their current trading history. I always wonder why that is... lol

And it can't be because someone "doesn't want to divulge what they have in their account for security reasons", because everyone here uses aliases and no one knows who you really are in real life anyway. So what does it matter unless you have another reason why you don't want people to see your actual results and whether you really do know what you are talking about?.....

Just an observation..... (BTW this isn't directed at Tashkent.... just in general)
  • #313
  • Jan 5, 2016 9:55pm Jan 5, 2016 9:55pm
Quoting tashkent
here is the live example of one of the most dramatic recent events: usdchf dropped exactly 1 886 pips. i know many people who can easily handle 2 000 pips drawdown. this example shows how using sl is important. But I seriously doubt anybody here understands that this example also proves how important not using stop loss is when you have a solid risk management considering risk of ruin. think it this way, if someone had 100, 500 or 1000 pips sl, he would lose shit a lot of money. at the same time, this real example shows that someone who can handle...

You are right in all but the stop loss issue... that instant the market GAPPED down not moved slowly or rapidly it GAPPED down so no stop loss would have saved you nothing would have saved an open trade in the opposite direction unless your risk management was perfect just like you said.

So most fail due to greed their risk tolerance is so high they can fly with it lol, you ( i.e risk management) need to be able to handle much more than 2000 movement against you if you want to stay trading for a living and although the market regathered it's losses you don't know that until the even took place. ALl you have to know is what ever risk management you have must be able to handle such massive movements and a STOP LOSS WILL NOT SAVE YOU WHEN THE MARKET GAPS.

Most people want to become millionaires overnight and that implies their risk tolerance is very high, which leads me to conclude they will eventually crash their account.
  • #314
  • Jan 5, 2016 10:08pm Jan 5, 2016 10:08pm
Quoting RichFXTrades
{quote} The thing that I have noticed is that virtually all the people who speak with expert authority here and give strong opinions about what others should or should not do, don't share their current trading history.
it really would not matter if that person has a great trading stats or not. every system only represents only its owner. someone just can not adapt somebody's else's sytem unless he becomes that person, which is not possible. trading system is not just a bunch of freaking rules. it is actually the personality of the owner of the system.
everybody deserves the right to decide either to use or not to use stop loss in accordance with his own risk management.
As Above, So Below
  • #315
  • Jan 5, 2016 10:15pm Jan 5, 2016 10:15pm
Quoting tradability
{quote} You are right in all but the stop loss issue... that instant the market GAPPED down not moved slowly or rapidly it GAPPED down so no stop loss would have saved you nothing would have saved an open trade in the opposite direction unless your risk management was perfect just like you said. So most fail due to greed their risk tolerance is so high they can fly with it lol, you ( i.e risk management) need to be able to handle much more than 2000 movement against you if you want to stay trading for a living and although the market regathered...
you are right on spot. in that case, who survived was the ones with an excellent risk management which can withstand at least couple of thousand pips drawdown with no stop loss. with some patience they almost got the break even. others who had sl or bad risk management were the ones who got raped.
there is always the other side of the coin...
As Above, So Below
  • #316
  • Jan 5, 2016 10:47pm Jan 5, 2016 10:47pm
Not impressed that a person is drawing down 2000 pips and maybe recovering to breakeven or that the only way some people could make money was in an artificial market that eventually collapsed.

But if it works for you, then that's all that matters.
  • #317
  • Jan 5, 2016 11:19pm Jan 5, 2016 11:19pm
Quoting tashkent
here is the live example of one of the most dramatic recent events: usdchf dropped exactly 1 886 pips. i know many people who can easily handle 2 000 pips drawdown. this example shows how using sl is important. But I seriously doubt anybody here understands that this example also proves how important not using stop loss is when you have a solid risk management considering risk of ruin. think it this way, if someone had 100, 500 or 1000 pips sl, he would lose shit a lot of money. at the same time, this real example shows that someone who can handle...

Could the average retail trader who normally reads/writes on Forex Factory able to withstand such a USDCHF 1,856 pips without a Stop Loss??

Some few traders can handle such a 2,000-pips drawdown, majority of average traders probably could not handle such a big drawdown without a margin call.

Why would a trader want to give away a 2,000-pips when they may give away said a 20-pips, or 50-pips or 100-pips as a stop loss as an example.

The trader could have "save" 1,900-pips, and can use the 1,900-pips to do a different type of transaction.

The CHF un-peg was a major un-expected event, that we would not know what would happened if a trader have a stop loss, as the CHF move was so quick, don't know how far away the exits may have trigger from the stop loss.


People forgets quickly what happened to even Professional Firms and Professional Hedge Funds after the CHF un-pegged in Jan-2015.

This is not to say whether those Professional Funds in below cases used stop loss or not, as we really don't know their operations on the CHF un-pegged.
I can only "guessed" that they did not used appropriate Stop Loss.

If such Professional Funds cannot even handle these type of 1,886 pips drawdown, would it be reasonable to assume Average Retail Forex Trader can handle such a drawdown??


Whether a trader uses a Stop Loss or not use a Stop Loss, it is up to them to choose.

Other people are not judging whether a trader uses a Stop Loss or don't use a Stop Loss, only the Trader themselves and their Results are the only judge.

But whether a Stop Loss is useful or not, is that a Stop Loss can be useful.


Below are just a quick Google search of 2 real cases of the CHF un-pegged in Jan-2015.
There were definitely more real similar cases whose operations may have closed or suffered tremendously financially when CHF was unpegged.

"On 16 January 2015, it was widely reported that Alpari has entered insolvency following heavy losses the previous day when the Swiss National Bank unexpectedly removed the franc's ceiling against theeuro.[17][18] On 17 January 2015, Alpari clarified on its website that it had not entered a formal insolvency process,[19] although its board of directors were considering all options including a sale.[20] On January 19, Alpari (UK) Ltd. applied for formal insolvency and the English High Court appointed a special administrators from KPMG under Special Administration Regime.[21] IronFX, a Cyprus-basedforeign exchange trading company, confirmed its bid on Alpari in January 2015."


"Business News | Sat Jan 17, 2015 1:29pm EST
Large Everest Capital hedge fund closing after Swiss franc losses: Bloomberg
Hedge fund manager Marko Dimitrijevic is closing his largest hedge fund, Everest Capital's Global Fund, having lost almost all its money after the Swiss National Bank (SNB) scrapped its three-year-old cap on the franc against the euro, Bloomberg news reported on Saturday.
Citing a person familiar with the firm, Bloomberg said the fund had been betting that the Swiss franc would decline. The fund had about $830 million in assets at the end of 2014, according to a client report cited by Bloomberg.
Everest Capital, based in Miami and specializing in emerging markets, still manages seven funds with about $2.2 billion in assets, Bloomberg said.
The SNB triggered big losses around the globe on Thursday when it removed a three-year-old cap on the value of the Swiss franc against the euro, allowing it to soar."
  • #318
  • Jan 5, 2016 11:26pm Jan 5, 2016 11:26pm
Quoting tashkent
{quote} it really would not matter if that person has a great trading stats or not. every system only represents only its owner. someone just can not adapt somebody's else's sytem unless he becomes that person, which is not possible. trading system is not just a bunch of freaking rules. it is actually the personality of the owner of the system. everybody deserves the right to decide either to use or not to use stop loss in accordance with his own risk management.
Talking the talk and walking the walk are two different things. I can say this, that or the other. Proving that one can trade, regardless of how one does it, is done with visible results. Unless something on this planet has changed, no one who trades for a living is paying bills with their opinions. Whether you use stop losses, don't use them, or a combination thereof, what you can actually do, and the money in your trading and bank accounts is what matters.
  • #319
  • Jan 6, 2016 12:28am Jan 6, 2016 12:28am
Quoting foxybunny
{quote} Could the average retail trader who normally reads/writes on Forex Factory able to withstand such a USDCHF 1,856 pips without a Stop Loss?? Some few traders can handle such a 2,000-pips drawdown, majority of average traders probably could not handle such a big drawdown without a margin call. Why would a trader want to give away a 2,000-pips when they may give away said a 20-pips, or 50-pips or 100-pips as a stop loss as an example. The trader could have "save" 1,900-pips, and can use the 1,900-pips to do a different type of transaction....
2000 pips drawdown is nothing and there are a lot of people here in ff can handle it. i used to trade with such risk tolerance. look at this chart. this guy was handling not only 2000 pips drawdown but many thousands of pips drawdown, unfortunately things went out of control because of bad trade management, bad martingale and inefficient hedging. this is just to show you how little you know about extensions of risk management.it is actual negative pips from live account
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the other thing is you are not doing the statistics of your argument. 1. how often such event occurs (a sharp drop of about 1850 pips in a very short time)? once in a year? in five years? in ten years? 2. how many trades an average trader takes in a month? (for example i do at least 100 trades a month). 3. find out the average win rate. let's say about 70%. 4. so in a month i am losing 30 trades with 30 pip stop loss (of course swing trade the frequency of trades will be less, like a trade a day, but then sl will be bigger, at least 50 pips) which is 900 pips in total. that is over 10 000 pips a year. if you take a trade a day and swing trade, then you are using at least 50 pips sl. so 20 trades a month, 6 losing trades and 300 pips wasted for sl per month. this is 3600 pips a year.

Disclaimer. my apologies if there are logical or calculation problems. i am too tired and almost falling asleep.
happy pipping.
As Above, So Below
  • #320
  • Jan 6, 2016 12:38am Jan 6, 2016 12:38am
Quoting tradability
{quote} You are right in all but the stop loss issue... that instant the market GAPPED down not moved slowly or rapidly it GAPPED down so no stop loss would have saved you nothing would have saved an open trade in the opposite direction unless your risk management was perfect just like you said. So most fail due to greed their risk tolerance is so high they can fly with it lol, you ( i.e risk management) need to be able to handle much more than 2000 movement against you if you want to stay trading for a living and although the market regathered...
re bolded - some brokers offer guaranteed stop loss for a small premium.
Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.
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