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To Succeed is to Lose?

  • #1
  • First Post: Aug 16, 2006 7:56am Aug 16, 2006 7:56am
Hi guys,

I seem to create problems on purpose in order to learn from them. Sometimes even when a 'mistake' is avoidable, my subconscious will not only make sure it's created, but will oftentimes make it worse.

Now the flipside to this situation is that I learn a lot, painful as it may be...

For some weird reason this short-term downward spiral gives me momentum for the journey back up and beyond.

Am I just overly aware of what makes me human or is it programming from my childhood that enables me to allow myself this process??

Thanks in advance to the FXUltraCore
change the future, not the past
  • #2
  • Aug 16, 2006 8:47am Aug 16, 2006 8:47am
Quoting 137
Hi guys,

I seem to create problems on purpose in order to learn from them. Sometimes even when a 'mistake' is avoidable, my subconscious will not only make sure it's created, but will oftentimes make it worse.

Now the flipside to this situation is that I learn a lot, painful as it may be...

For some weird reason this short-term downward spiral gives me momentum for the journey back up and beyond.

Am I just overly aware of what makes me human or is it programming from my childhood that enables me to allow myself this process??

Thanks in advance to the FXUltraCore
You're not exactly alone in this problem, but honestly, and this is PURELY my opinion, you need to expect MORE from yourself than anyone else. I suppose it's ok to compensate for your mistakes by looking for positive experiences within your mistakes, but perhaps (and just think about it) you have made it "OK" to fail.

The world is so full of these contradictory proverbs like "No pain and no gain" coupled with something like "If you fail and learn, that's a good thing". While not completely contrarian in logic, it still sends 2 different messages. The latter seems to be rampant in our society today where success is more of an individual merit, where people don't like to truly take 100% responsibility for their actions (see Andrea Yates..."God made me do it").

The point is this...just maybe the reason why you are having this "short term" dry-spell (and honestly, I don't know what that means for you...could be 2 trades, could be 2 years of trading) is because you have made it ok as long as you "learn". However, it would seem to me that the one thing that people who tout "learning from failure" while continuing fail have not learned the most important lesson...succeeding.

I apologize if I sound a bit harsh, but I'm of the school of thought that the markets are so cut-throat that the frou-frou attitude of love and peace just don't apply. Success IS NOT predicated on failure...it's just not. It's true that people who succeed may have failed more often, but that's primarily because those who didn't succeed just quit the game entirely. I am of the school of thought that the reason why 95% of traders don't succeed is because a large chunk of them just give up...some after only a few trades...and while I don't recommend beating your head against the wall, I DON'T believe that a newbie has to experience massive losses in order to be schooled in what is right and proper market technique.

There are fundamental things that all traders can do to become "successful". It's just a matter of how you define success. I would hope everyone agrees that NOT losing money is success. For some, making $10 million (or was it $7 trillion...I forget :-) ) is success and anything less is failure.

So, perhaps you are focusing on the wrong things (learning from your mistakes). If you're always looking to learn from your mistakes, all you have to do is make a mistake and learn something, rinse and repeat...however, from my perspective, that's not a move that will make you successful at trading. It will make you successful at learning from your mistakes.

I would think the first thing you should become successful is not losing massive amounts of money on a single trade. This is probably the easiest thing to overcome for anyone. Then focusing on making small amounts of money with trades. Then focus on making large amounts of money with a trade or two.Then focus on making it through a day without losing money. Then 2 days. Then 5 days. Then 4 weeks.

You'll probably find as your goals lengthen in time, your trades will lessen and you'll minimize the risk of going back to step one...but the one most important thing to take away is that it really shouldn't be OK to keep making mistakes and hoping to come back. Believing you will "come back" is fine and dandy, but only if you have a plan for success.
  • #3
  • Aug 16, 2006 10:35am Aug 16, 2006 10:35am
Amen to that!

Thank you for putting it into words.
  • #4
  • Aug 17, 2006 4:06am Aug 17, 2006 4:06am
This is a top spiritual post.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o></o>

<o> </o>

Cheers man & good luck<o></o>
  • #5
  • Aug 23, 2006 5:25am Aug 23, 2006 5:25am
Quoting mrmikal
You're not exactly alone in this problem, but honestly, and this is PURELY my opinion, you need to expect MORE from yourself than anyone else. I suppose it's ok to compensate for your mistakes by looking for positive experiences within your mistakes, but perhaps (and just think about it) you have made it "OK" to fail.

The world is so full of these contradictory proverbs like "No pain and no gain" coupled with something like "If you fail and learn, that's a good thing". While not completely contrarian in logic, it still sends 2 different messages. The latter seems to be rampant in our society today where success is more of an individual merit, where people don't like to truly take 100% responsibility for their actions (see Andrea Yates..."God made me do it").

The point is this...just maybe the reason why you are having this "short term" dry-spell (and honestly, I don't know what that means for you...could be 2 trades, could be 2 years of trading) is because you have made it ok as long as you "learn". However, it would seem to me that the one thing that people who tout "learning from failure" while continuing fail have not learned the most important lesson...succeeding.

I apologize if I sound a bit harsh, but I'm of the school of thought that the markets are so cut-throat that the frou-frou attitude of love and peace just don't apply. Success IS NOT predicated on failure...it's just not. It's true that people who succeed may have failed more often, but that's primarily because those who didn't succeed just quit the game entirely. I am of the school of thought that the reason why 95% of traders don't succeed is because a large chunk of them just give up...some after only a few trades...and while I don't recommend beating your head against the wall, I DON'T believe that a newbie has to experience massive losses in order to be schooled in what is right and proper market technique.

There are fundamental things that all traders can do to become "successful". It's just a matter of how you define success. I would hope everyone agrees that NOT losing money is success. For some, making $10 million (or was it $7 trillion...I forget :-) ) is success and anything less is failure.

So, perhaps you are focusing on the wrong things (learning from your mistakes). If you're always looking to learn from your mistakes, all you have to do is make a mistake and learn something, rinse and repeat...however, from my perspective, that's not a move that will make you successful at trading. It will make you successful at learning from your mistakes.

I would think the first thing you should become successful is not losing massive amounts of money on a single trade. This is probably the easiest thing to overcome for anyone. Then focusing on making small amounts of money with trades. Then focus on making large amounts of money with a trade or two.Then focus on making it through a day without losing money. Then 2 days. Then 5 days. Then 4 weeks.

You'll probably find as your goals lengthen in time, your trades will lessen and you'll minimize the risk of going back to step one...but the one most important thing to take away is that it really shouldn't be OK to keep making mistakes and hoping to come back. Believing you will "come back" is fine and dandy, but only if you have a plan for success.
Thanks very much for the excellent reply, mrmikal...

I suppose it's difficult to determine how much sacrifice to impose on oneself and when to do this. I probably make most of my mistakes out of desperartion lol I must remember that my goal is to help people and I can't help anyone until I can fully help myself,

Take care
change the future, not the past
  • #6
  • Aug 23, 2006 5:27am Aug 23, 2006 5:27am
Quoting forexmri
This is a top spiritual post.<o></o>

<o> </o>

Cheers man & good luck<o></o>
hahaha thanks...same to you

change the future, not the past
  • #7
  • Aug 23, 2006 6:09am Aug 23, 2006 6:09am
If I try to fail and I succeed, which have I done
Mono
  • #8
  • Aug 23, 2006 6:14am Aug 23, 2006 6:14am
Quoting mono
If I try to fail and I succeed, which have I done
When you multiply a negative number by a positive number, what do you get?
  • #9
  • Aug 23, 2006 6:36am Aug 23, 2006 6:36am
Quoting mrmikal
When you multiply a negative number by a positive number, what do you get?
Hmmmm.. a negative number multiplied by a positive number? hehehe...
just trying to be funny.
  • #10
  • Aug 23, 2006 8:32am Aug 23, 2006 8:32am
Quoting mrmikal
......
I apologize if I sound a bit harsh, but I'm of the school of thought that the markets are so cut-throat that the frou-frou attitude of love and peace just don't apply.
.........
Mr Mikal, the above stuck out for me in your post. Last night I was reading:
The Ten Tasks of Top Trading by Van K. Tharp and Henry 0. Pruden and under #10 Periodic review they write:
Quote
Consistent, top traders keep their lives in
balance and that makes trading fun. In addition,
they also seem to realize their overall purpose in life.
Predators are helpful to the whole system. They
weed out the weak members of their prey and in
doing so strengthen the herd. As a result, they serve
a very useful purpose. Similarly, strong traders serve
as predators for weaker traders and weed them out
of the market. As a result, they strengthen the
markets by their presence. As long as you keep that
perspective in mind, then you can continue to have
success. Traders who have a lot of initial success tend
to lose that perspective. They suddenly believe they
are bigger than the markets. As a result, the market
teaches them humility by wiping out most, if not all,
of their capital.
In trading, there is no bullshit. You either make money or you don't.
  • #11
  • Aug 23, 2006 8:51am Aug 23, 2006 8:51am
137, that is an interesting question, and one that is going to draw all kinds of responses. Mrmikal has given a great response, however I have to beg to differ from experience of myself and others much more experienced and successful than myself.

It is a fact that some of lifes greatest lessons are learnt through despair, think of some of the most inspirational people of our time (no I am not talking about Anthony Robbins), and you will see a common thread. While what we are talking about here is nothing on that level, the principals are the same, you learn more when your ego is not getting in the way. The only time your ego is deflated enough to see around is when you have been humbled by the markets.

Have a read of Market Wizards, any of them, and you will see time and time again of tales of blown accounts and big mistakes from the big boys and how they learnt their most important lessons from them. If you can find me one of the top 2% of traders that do not have these same tales let me know (and give them my phone # ).

Mrmikal it would be remiss of me not to pick you up on one thing, you say that telling yourself you are learning from your mistakes is not the way to be successful in trading, that we need practice being successful, not learning from mistakes. There is some truth to some degree in that, positive affirmations for example have always been a touted technique in getting the mental side of things, but this statement worries me:

Quote
There are fundamental things that all traders can do to become "successful". It's just a matter of how you define success. I would hope everyone agrees that NOT losing money is success. For some, making $10 million (or was it $7 trillion...I forget :-) ) is success and anything less is failure.

I can't agree that NOT losing money is success, I don't think my wife would agree that I am a successful trader if this time next year we have what we started with but no more. Not losing money is treading water and no more, actually really it is no better, and probably, more harmful than losing money as you are lulled into thinking you are close to making a fistful of money, when in reality, you are probably no closer than someone who lost money over the year.

You can, should learn from your mistakes, and if you trully did learn from them, you will not do them again, perhaps there-in lies the truth of if you are really learning from your mistakes, or accepting failure as mrmikal suggests.
You can quit and they won't care, but you will always know.
  • #12
  • Aug 23, 2006 9:02am Aug 23, 2006 9:02am
Quoting Akuma99
Have a read of Market Wizards, any of them, and you will see time and time again of tales of blown accounts and big mistakes from the big boys and how they learnt their most important lessons from them. If you can find me one of the top 2% of traders that do not have these same tales let me know (and give them my phone # ).
There was at least one in New Market Wizards who didn't blow out.

Can't we learn from other's mistakes???? I hope so!

Squid
  • #13
  • Aug 23, 2006 9:45am Aug 23, 2006 9:45am
Quote
Can't we learn from other's mistakes????

Honestly ... not really ... you may know what the mistake was, but do you know what mental process was used before it was reached, what it felt like emotionally, what little voice caused it to be made? .. this is the important stuff the person making the mistake needs to understand to improve, if it is not your mistake, then you take no ownership. If we all learnt from others mistakes, there would be very few left making them

... there is a reason "history repeats itself" ...
You can quit and they won't care, but you will always know.
  • #14
  • Aug 28, 2006 9:10am Aug 28, 2006 9:10am
Wow, I didn't expect so much help...

Bassically I've come to the conclusion that it's not so much about a balance between the two sides of the argument but rather the intention behind the desired experience. I think that to be able to 'lose', like others have said, is an empowering skill to posess. I've talked to people from many different backgrounds and it's just necessary at times to take a different persepective on one's ego. The world seems to trend better that way...

thanks btw,
change the future, not the past
  • #15
  • Aug 28, 2006 9:32am Aug 28, 2006 9:32am
Quoting Akuma99
Honestly ... not really ... you may know what the mistake was, but do you know what mental process was used before it was reached, what it felt like emotionally, what little voice caused it to be made? .. this is the important stuff the person making the mistake needs to understand to improve, if it is not your mistake, then you take no ownership. If we all learnt from others mistakes, there would be very few left making them

... there is a reason "history repeats itself" ...
Akuma,

Thanks for the respectiful disagreement, but where we don't see eye to eye will probably never completely be rectified because of our different experiences.

With that said, I do see your points about learning from mistakes. I agree, learning from mistakes IS crucial. I just disagree with the fact that someone HAS to make mistakes.

Let's take drug usage for example. Why does someone have to take drugs to know that they're bad? Or what about plane crashes...does a pilot have to crash once in order to know that crashing is a mistake or that some sort of error that they made would result in a crash?

Let's look at it another way. I graduated from high school (on my first try - LOL). I didn't have any problems doing so. I inherently saw the difficulties some of my classmates had at trying to graduate, but I breezed through it. From my perspective, I didn't fail at doing that...nor do I think I made many mistakes during the time that would have jeopardized me doing so. Personally, I think I was completely successful and I had never really done high school before...so...where was the danger? I would venture to say a lot of people that graduated with me managed to do so on their first try too.

Obviously, these are extreme examples, but I don't agree that someone has to make a mistake in order to learn from it. The point of all of this is to prove that people CAN be successful without making mistakes.

Sure history repeats itself, but history doesn't repeat itself for everyone. Perhaps it just cycles...or worse yet, perhaps we're just pigeon-holing history to see it in ways that makes sense.

So...obviously if someone makes mistakes, then sure...they need to be able to learn. I never said a person needs to win every single trade. I never even said that a user needs to avoid drawdown (negative profit for a period of time). I just don't think a user needs to lose his/her account or even a lot of money in order to become successful at trading.

As far as what success is defined as, again, breaking even is treading water...sure...but for someone who can't swim, treading water will do...right? It's a matter of perspective. If someone trades 1 time a year and breaks even for the year...is that success? It could be...for that individual. Success is a very personal thing. I'm just assuming that MOST people would just as soon avoid a loss. That's all that was about. Personally, success is a much higher percentage too, but I can't speak for everyone here.

Great discussion, though.
  • #16
  • Aug 28, 2006 10:24pm Aug 28, 2006 10:24pm
Maybe this idea would help. I have only been trading for about 8 months but I try to bring my life experiences to trading. So I keep a list of mistakes I have made. On paper for trading not in my head. I check this list before each trade. They are written in a positive frame though. One is " Are you set to the correct pair." There are 15 in the list. If I don't make the same mistake again within the year I will remove it from the list. I have not made the same mistake more than twice.

Hope this helps
  • #17
  • Sep 1, 2006 11:36pm Sep 1, 2006 11:36pm
Excellent idea sir, thank you!
change the future, not the past
  • #18
  • Dec 24, 2011 3:42am Dec 24, 2011 3:42am
Quoting 137
Hi guys,

I seem to create problems on purpose in order to learn from them. Sometimes even when a 'mistake' is avoidable, my subconscious will not only make sure it's created, but will oftentimes make it worse.

Now the flipside to this situation is that I learn a lot, painful as it may be...

For some weird reason this short-term downward spiral gives me momentum for the journey back up and beyond.

Am I just overly aware of what makes me human or is it programming from my childhood that enables me to allow myself this process??

Thanks...
Trading mistakes of this nature, typically come from a subconscious mind that has been bombarded with failure, after failure after failure and precious few successes along the way. Because there is also an emotional charge attached to each failure whenever real money is on the line, your brain establishes a neural sub-net, or neural pathways, that foster and heighten the thoughts followed by actions that lead to making even more mistakes.

Why do Olympic Athletes train the way they do?

To get physically more adept at what they are already the best in the world at doing? Minimally, at best.

They train the way they do, to lay down neural sub-nets and pathways in the brain, that creates an autonomic response to successful repetition of whatever task they need to complete. The best Olympic Athletes, are in a sense, very much like Machines - garbage in, garbage out.

That's how they train and that is why you always hear an Olympic Athlete talking so forcefully about the need for proper training. It is not just for physical benefit. When you want to be the best in the world at something, you need an edge which is precisely why their training resembles no other on earth.

As a trader, you too can develop this level of psychological conditioning to increase and enhance your trading edge - just like an Olympic Athlete does all year round.

It is not what you trade, but how you trade it and train for it, that can make all the difference.
  • #19
  • Jan 24, 2012 5:35pm Jan 24, 2012 5:35pm
im new to forex and i always beleive that a minute discussion with a professional in any field is worth more than years of study. so if you are a professional trader out there and beleive you could spare a little time to act as a guide to me then dont hesistate as it will mean a lot to me.
  • #20
  • Dec 17, 2020 7:21am Dec 17, 2020 7:21am
If you want to succeed in the forex market you need to make a plan to recover your losses.
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