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"good traders trade, bad traders teach"

  • #101
  • Feb 28, 2014 1:55pm Feb 28, 2014 1:55pm
Basically it boils down to not all traders being great traders, that's all. Phil Jackson played basketball, but he was never known for that. What he was known for was coaching Michael Jordan and the Bulls to 6 championships, and would later lead Kobe Bryant to win as well.

The point? Some are better coaches than they are players. This means that there are some amazing trading teachers out there, that maybe wouldn't make or didn't make the best traders.

How bout this, do you really think a great trader could be a great teacher? It goes both ways.

Food for thought!
  • #102
  • Mar 1, 2014 2:10pm Mar 1, 2014 2:10pm
Quoting charvo
or the opposite? why would a successful trader teaches for free??? when you do sth for free, you usually attract a bunch of cheap bastards. isn't this observation right??? if someday i were to teach, i'll also charge a fee like $2000 or $5000. why not? doesn't a master teacher need to see if the pupil is pious and eager??? in our long history, we've read so many stories of legendary folks who, when started to learn, suffered and paid all kinds of dues (begging again and again, kneeling down in snow all night, having his arms cut, .......) don't...
Er yeah, so what does being a cheap bastard have to do with how eager one is? Maybe they're not eager to get scammed?

And your last sentence is really the point, you initially suggest a "successful trader" who teaches for free will attract a bunch of cheap bastards, but as you end up saying, it's up to the "teacher" to decide who he will teach. So the teacher can select his pupils and teach them because he wants to... or he can sell them a $5000 "course", in which case he's obviously in the business of selling education.
  • #103
  • Mar 1, 2014 3:38pm Mar 1, 2014 3:38pm
Sometimes it looks differently. In my case for example, I worked out quite, let say, "innovative" way of trading. I have shown my idea to few of my friends, however I don't trade by myself too often, because I have much more interesting, and well paid job. Question for me is if to sell my method and programs, organize paid/or free courses performed by my friends, or to write a program trading according to my rules and just check it from time to time, taking a risk of loosing money to my side.
This is the point: One may have a nice knowledge but not have time to trade or may not want to take a risk of loosing money on his arms.
But i don't have an idea how to check if somebody making a paid course have something valuable to say/give or just he wants to get money teaching what is RSI, candles and so on.
  • #104
  • Mar 1, 2014 3:42pm Mar 1, 2014 3:42pm
itīs simple
You need a goood teacher.
Then you need to be a good student.

Makes no difference if the teacher is charging or not (except on your pocket), usually good ones do charge...why shouldnīt they.

The problem is to be lucky, and smart enough to find a good one....and most difficult, to become a good student.

Ans yes, thereīs tons of expensive and free garbage out there, specially after the Internet ...

I learn from Robert Miner...with success....but study very, very, hard...over and over again.
Success is fun.
Hope this helps.
  • #105
  • Edited 3:59am Mar 2, 2014 3:46am | Edited 3:59am
Quoting marcosrtc
{quote} Ah, indicators. They are as popular today as Elvis was in his day. I had a math teacher in college who would have probably said: "indicators are just mathematical transformations of the price, therefore they have no more predictive power than the price itself". In other words, most of the time you are just cluttering your screen with them for nothing, but there are exceptions. For instance, the ATR (Average True Range) can be a useful measure of volatility. By the way, in your reply you clearly contradicted yourself, twice. You first stated...


  1. the ta solution is to find patterns that repeat themselves.
    some way of anticipating the future based on past information because this is all that we know for sure. the past.
    indicators convert all instruments to one way of interpreting what you see.
    it's basically just like labeling animals and interpreting all animals based on arm length or the absence of it meanwhile the "price itself"
    it's just a picture of the animal. from a picture you can reframe an animal in 1000 different ways . and maybe one way of interpreting
    will give you a new and interesting pattern which was impposible to spot with the naked eye. mathematicians fail to deliver results in all
    walks of life because of their life stupidity.
    mathematics is logical and simple. life is not. unknown phenomenas are not. you cannot place partial derivatives on people's feelings and get nobel
    prize in economics for that when your theory
    of predicting and explaining is worthless. you can play around with abstractisations but if you have no results maybe you should stay in a
    more simple environment
    like a math phd.
    engineers decide whether math is good for something or not in fixing real life problems. the fact that math can be hard doesn't justify placing a
    value on mathematicians in solving real life problems. but of course you can give the charting problem to a mathematician and see his brains fall out.
    check out the quants and long term success .
    but there is an escape goat also. the solution is that there is no solution. unless you can find a few hundreds of people who found the solution already.

  • #106
  • Mar 3, 2014 3:14am Mar 3, 2014 3:14am
Quoting charvo
or the opposite? why would a successful trader teaches for free??? when you do sth for free, you usually attract a bunch of cheap bastards. isn't this observation right??? if someday i were to teach, i'll also charge a fee like $2000 or $5000. why not? doesn't a master teacher need to see if the pupil is pious and eager??? in our long history, we've read so many stories of legendary folks who, when started to learn, suffered and paid all kinds of dues (begging again and again, kneeling down in snow all night, having his arms cut, .......) don't...
Maybe I'm wrong about that education should be free, just now in the Internet there are a lot of scams. Of course, every work must be paid, but for beginners I would advise to study from a living person and not to buy a pig in a poke through the Internet
  • #107
  • Mar 6, 2014 8:13am Mar 6, 2014 8:13am
So it is better not to buy courses from internet?
  • #108
  • Mar 6, 2014 8:29am Mar 6, 2014 8:29am
Why Buy? There is a lot of free info in WWW. Just download (Google will help you
  • #109
  • Mar 6, 2014 2:09pm Mar 6, 2014 2:09pm
Quoting Chace
What are the reasons one should pay for a forex course? I'd like some genuine reasons since it makes sense that "good traders trade, bad traders teach"? Obviously if someone teaches for free it is completely different but I'm talking about all these paid courses - what are the reasons that justify making it worth a trader's time to earn money from teaching rather than trading? Your thoughts please! Chace
It's very simple...would you listen to a fat guy on how to get fit? FCK NO!

BUT you could use a life coach. With him you'd work on you personal issues that reflect on your trading performance.
  • #110
  • Sep 8, 2015 4:26pm Sep 8, 2015 4:26pm
So many so called successful traders appear to be nothing more than front men for a business group, they communicate well etc, but with one in particular who brought out a book as well telling his struggles, it just takes some sorting out the chaff from the wheat to realise that according to what he says in the book, he must have had hundreds of thusands to blow up all the accounts as well as the thousands on seminars etc.
Then all of a sudden develops his own system after appx 2 yrs of trading and been teaching as long as he's been trading, plus stumbles across all of the required programmers, video companies etc to sell it and at a hefty cost to others.

So always do due dilligence as a real mentor is like hens teeth alas
  • #111
  • Edited 7:11pm Sep 8, 2015 5:43pm | Edited 7:11pm
Quoting charvo
or the opposite? why would a successful trader teaches for free??? when you do sth for free, you usually attract a bunch of cheap bastards. isn't this observation right??? if someday i were to teach, i'll also charge a fee like $2000 or $5000. why not? doesn't a master teacher need to see if the pupil is pious and eager??? in our long history, we've read so many stories of legendary folks who, when started to learn, suffered and paid all kinds of dues (begging again and again, kneeling down in snow all night, having his arms cut, .......) don't...
The ONLY time you should consider giving a paid course/seminar the time of your day is IF they trade COMPLETELY LIVE in REALTIME in the market AND they offer you a week AT LEAST of free sit-in for you to see their trading performance right in front of you BEFORE you pay, no past performance records and no cherry-picked past charts with trades as these can all be manipulated and faked. And then if and ONLY if you like what you see then you can sign up with them to take their courses/seminars to learn their methods/strategies. You will ask well what if they were having a particularly bad week and you happen to be observing that week then isn't that not fair to them? Well if their method/strategy is a profitable one, it should be able to withstand the test of time and it should be consistently profitable. If they can't even make a WEEK of consistent profit, do you REALLY want to fork over your hard-earned money to learn it? Remember once you have paid for those seminars/courses and learned that method/strategy, those method/strategy will be EXACTLY what you will be using trading everyday. The whole purpose is to make money, not to become an ATM machine for those teaching industries.

So far I haven't seen any paid courses/seminars where they put their money where their mouth is and is not afraid to show it and then and only then you should consider giving them money otherwise they are all just snake oil salesmen/saleswomen. I have seen only a few trading rooms that are centered around live trading which is good and they are free.
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #112
  • Sep 9, 2015 6:45am Sep 9, 2015 6:45am
I hadn't read this old thread before, but have read it all, now that it's been bumped.

It's full of opinion stated as if it were factual, and some of it's actually fairly ill-informed.


Quoting skyway
Good traders make good money from the markets. Why should they collect paltry fees from teaching others?

Well, quite a few reasons, actually. Including, but not limited to, the following ...

(i) Some expert teachers are retired/semi-retired, very successful traders from leading financial institutions, who continue to do some intermittent teaching there in exchange for considerable "consultancy fees" (a member of my immediate family is among this group)

(ii) Some people "just like teaching" (a well-known example would be Al Brooks, previously a professor of ophthalmology who gave up a very successful career as an eye-surgeon partly because he could earn so much more from his trading, and over the decades he did, but found that he still missed the interaction of teaching)

(iii) The relative convenience of the working hours, which is hugely significant to some people

(iv) Depending on the exact form of the teaching and trading concerned, it can sometimes be "additional income for very little additional work"


Quoting skyway
As for good traders that teach on the side, a few may look like "good traders" to many for some good looking trades, but they're not great traders who took modest accounts into the millions.

On the contrary: some are demonstrably exactly that. You need only read the Jack Schwager books The Market Wizards and The New Market Wizards to see one or two of them interviewed.

Nobody's disputing that the overwhelming majority of the "trading courses" one sees commercially advertised are crap and nonsense (and the more prominently one sees them promoted online, for all the obvious reasons, the more likely that is to be so, in any individual case), but the big problem - exactly as in some other threads - with many of the blanket statements of opinion expressed above (many of which are really just "prejudice" rather than "opinion", per se) is that they're being offered as "factual", and in reality they're just not.
  • #113
  • Sep 9, 2015 7:24am Sep 9, 2015 7:24am
Why do some traders teach? Diversification of income.

A few traders teach, but very few teachers trade (long term profitably, that is).
  • #114
  • Sep 9, 2015 7:47am Sep 9, 2015 7:47am
Based on my observation, the people who offer exorbitant trading courses are often not traders themselves and such courses are never worth attending even if offered for free.

On the other hand, casual conversation with someone who actually understands the game yields priceless insights at no cost at all.
  • #115
  • Sep 9, 2015 8:11am Sep 9, 2015 8:11am
buy stock, let them trade for us
  • #116
  • Sep 9, 2015 9:51am Sep 9, 2015 9:51am
Quoting hanover
Why do some traders teach? Diversification of income. A few traders teach, but very few teachers trade (long term profitably, that is).
//---

hey hanover.... when nikolay kositsin , the 2006 godzilla ea creator, was asked if he coded ea's on a commercial basis he replied, '''''Alas, one has to choose what to do - either to sell trading systems, or to develop programs for one's own purposes.''''''

his reply has never left my mind..... it really puts the difficulty of forex trading into perspective for me.....
//-----

some people might teach for social interaction.... as we all know to well, trading can be a lonely sport..... teaching others for free or otherwise might give them a balance in their life.....

i can easily think of over a dozen ff members i'd like to meet with for a social weekend every so often with the added benefit of learning from and toss around ideas.... and if that group wanted to have an occasional guest speaker, i'd gladly pay my part of the bill.... really can't expect raghee horner to show up for free.... mountain home arkansas is along way from south florida.....

no doubt in my mind, a forex 'learning' group could help many of us, me for sure..... by coincidence, actually tried to join a very active forex 'meet up' group a few weeks ago in atlanta georgia..... from here, that's about a 12 hour one way drive but seemed worth the time....

using just 3 words, they declined my membership ...... just 3 words..... not sure how to take that...........h
to trade and code, keep both simple... no call to impress....h
  • #117
  • Sep 9, 2015 5:32pm Sep 9, 2015 5:32pm
Quoting hayseed
//----- some people might teach for social interaction....
i can easily think of over a dozen ff members i'd like to meet with for a social weekend....
using just 3 words, they declined my membership ...... just 3 words..... not sure how to take that.....
Hay,

Agreed, social interaction could easily provide an excellent motivation for teaching.

I too have a list of maybe 10-20 FF members, with whom I think a social meet would make for some interesting conversation.

I have no idea why your membership to the group in Atlanta would be declined, but I certainly wouldn't take it personally. In a world where swagger and slick marketing offer folk of mediocre talent a ticket into the limelight, the quiet achievers are frequently overlooked. And I suppose, from the group's point of view, unless they're aware of your credentials, you could be anybody and in an industry where the vast majority fall by the wayside.

David
  • #118
  • Sep 11, 2015 7:57pm Sep 11, 2015 7:57pm
The only people worth paying to teach you how to trade would be those who don't need your tuition fees.

The only thing most successful trading teachers could teach someone, is how to teach and not how to trade.

If someone hasn't been consistently making money out of trading for years, then he probably can't teach successful trading to save his life. And the only way to prove over the internet that he's been making that money is to forego the tuition fees. If he enjoys teaching so much, he could choose a few people to mentor for free or require proof of donation to some charitable organization to accept someone as a student.

Another acceptable thing to do would be to say "hey, I have this great system that I have backtested and can make 50% per year, but now I'm under-capitalized and I would like to make money as fast as possible so I'm offering to teach this for a price". Of course, 50% per year isn't too enticing for the vast majority of students. He could promise something like 5% per day, but then he wouldn't need to teach in order to become very rich very fast. So it's catch-22.
  • #119
  • Edited 11:46pm Sep 12, 2015 9:26pm | Edited 11:46pm
Quoting Xela
I hadn't read this old thread before, but have read it all, now that it's been bumped. It's full of opinion stated as if it were factual, and some of it's actually fairly ill-informed. {quote} Well, quite a few reasons, actually. Including, but not limited to, the following ... (i) Some expert teachers are retired/semi-retired, very successful traders from leading financial institutions, who continue to do some intermittent teaching there in exchange for considerable "consultancy fees" (a member of my immediate family is among this group)...
To me whatever opinion you expressed about traders teaching depends on your own knowledge n skill level. When you express your opinion that someone is a good teacher you are actually telling me your knowledge n skill level, how much you know.I have NEVER seen any system/strat/method taught or shared on FF or on any forum that by themselves is any good at all. Books are good recreational read and big name courses, seminars are big money bullshit.I wrote that post and this to shorten your learning curve, if you care to listen - absolute facts to me. Unfortunately and understandably many like you don't. You still harp the same old stuff and as usual be willing worshippers of big name exclusive glib yakking pastors. Its human nature and the bullshit circus perpetuates.
  • #120
  • Sep 12, 2015 10:16pm Sep 12, 2015 10:16pm
Quoting eur.usd
{quote} If I wanna become a plumber, would I knock my neighbor door for some mentoring about plumbing given that my next door is not a plumber? Definitely not, unless he was a plumber. However, specifically in trading, why I wouldn't pay for someone to mentor me even that person might sound knowledgeable and skillful in trading just as the plumber in plumbing? Because, unlike the plumber who I can verify and apply his teaching that then i can fix things by myself, how do i Know a trading mentor that can teach me to trade profitably without knowing...
Old post but i'll bite.

There are only a few ways of performing successful heart surgery but there are literally thousands of ways to make money in trading and all of them are derided by academics and economists for having little basis in conventional finance. Trading is unlike any other field and you would find that many great traders found a unique method that suitied them intimately.

The problem with people who teach only the methodical aspect of trading is that they are appealing to the demand for "good looking" trading methods that may ultimately be vacuous. People want to pay for something that gives them a sense of control, they want someone to tell them that they can make their millions and live their fantasy. Discretionary systems appeal to this fantasy because using a discretionary system opens up the possibility of being lucky. This form of teaching/mentoring has all of the subjective biases that are detrimental to trading already woven into the fabric. Don't bother.
Quote
Let's say I wanna be day trader who use a 1min chart to trade but the trading mentor got no concept or experience at all about short term trading, how can he help? If i wanna be a swing trader or position trader, should I consult Al brooks who is self proclaimed successful scalper on 5 min chart?
You are putting the cart before the horse. Your decision sounds motivated by your uninformed beliefs about what it means to be a 'day trader'.

An informed decision can only be made after you have done an objective and comprehensive study of markets. This step saves a lot of hassle, because most people will come to the realization that trading is not for them.
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