The Really Useless Thread

No clue mate but the EZ already lost the upper hand in the negotiations with this.

Knowing the Greek government, they will prolly take a deal last minute, pay the IMF, go for the referendum and a week after finger the EZ again... don't forget the largest payment come in July and is to the ECB/EZ ...without the IMF in the middle, things will even get nastier on the political front and Greece would have a strong hand to keep delaying the unavoidable (chaos) ...

We'll see

sisse

we have us consumer confidence and chicago pmi to raise for the next session and maybe help usd to go up

And here are the measures requested from Greece just in case you have time to read:

- destroy tourism (1st income source)
- increase production cost to farmers - further destroy farm production
- increase property tax (most of Europe does not have such a tax - you are not taxed for the house you are living in)
- increase tax to ship owners - Greece's 2nd main income - all ship owners will just relocate to Netherlands or Germany with lower tax, maybe that's why they ask them to do it
- reduce military spending by Euro 400m - or just give some islands over to Turkey
- raise corporate tax to 28% - Bulgaria has 10%, most of the companies already left and relocated there, just give them more incentive to leave
- decrease pensions - half the market is now moving because of pensions
- sell rail ways and sea ports (first and Piraeus port are already considered to be sold to the Chinese and port of Thessaloniki to Russia)

The above are all set to bring financial development to the country Tsipras is an idiot for not showing the document to the people, 'no' would gain a 90%. The rest of the reforms are good and shall be implemented irrespective of yes/no vote.

http://europa.eu/rapid/attachment/IP...%2020%2000.pdf

And Greece officially confirming it wont pay the IMF so that is pretty much it for the morning. Official default is hours away now. Watch-out for for CB stepping again if we lost the handle....

Very dull and thin session expected until Europe goes home. As usual here pretty much flat across the board for the key Q/M roll. Only gold and euro in play for the risk move so...not much to do except going for an extended summer lunch ....

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On a side note, some of you probable already saw it but this is GREAT !!!!.... love the perks !!!... je je je https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/g...ut-fund#/story

sisse

seen it earlier this morning ... wouldnt mind greek feta & olive salad ...:nerd:

Oh screw that.

I've had Ouzo....might as well drink gasoline. 3 days in Rhodes Greece I'll never remember. Only thing I have is a receipt for 3 Gyros

what is the support and resistance lines to watch for CB stepping again?

Seems like they are already in since the morning.

a 300-500 pip green candle

i hope not to CB to come!!!
and i think they wont .
dont afraid yesterday is not gonna happened go short

the short was 12xx, not now. A bounce at 1115 is expected

Well, people can ask the ecb all they want, doesn't mean they listen... talking from experience here, I have asked them to extend ELA to me, never got a reply.

Anyway, like I thought: new negotiations. I honestly don't know why anybody cares anymore... can't we at least have a look at that referendum? I really would have liked to see how they organize it, was already holding my breath if Mr Varoufakis will ask everybody to open up a twitter-account or he turns to his pals at valve/steam to do it.

On a serious note: if we get a deal it will be very, very, very interesting to see how the other ez-governments will pull it off with their parliaments, after the weekends' drama. I'd like to see a referendum in my country... preparation time approx. 4 weeks, while payments are on hold... oh wait, summer time.

Sorry mate but I think your comments are bit bias. After reading the link you posted. I would say, and trying to be as objective as possible, that the majority of points are pretty straight forward and common sense reforms.

I can see there can be some harsh points (most of the draconian policies there were already introduced in the first bailouts so) like the increase in corporation tax (but 26% to 28% is high but in relative terms is not crazy until they balance the budget in a couple of years) but in general is not a crazy proposal.

There are some points that are beyond my knowledge like the increase the rate of the tonnage tax (really don't know the impact on that?) but in general most if not all the reforms are common sense and MUST be done one way or the other with or without the IMF squeezing the arm, common mate Greece is a modern, democratic, develop country not a banana republic.

I challenge anybody around here without having a bias view, if these points (from the link) are really as crazy as the Greek government and media is selling to the masses: ...

1. Adopt legislation to establish an autonomous revenue agency,
2. adopt legislation to accelerate de-registration procedures and limit VAT
3. combat fuel smuggling,
4. Adopt: (i) amendments to the corporate and household insolvency laws including to cover all debtors and bring the corporate insolvency law
5. Launch a consultation process similar to that foreseen for the determination of the level of the minimum wage
6. implement all the pending recommendations of the OECD competition toolkit
7. open the restricted professions of engineers, notaries, actuaries, and bailiffs, and liberalize the market for tourist rentals and ferry transportation
8. (i) reduce red tape, including on horizontal licensing requirements of investments and on low-risk activities
9. align non-wage benefits such as leave arrangements, per diems, travel allowances and perks, with best practices in the EU
10. hire managers and assess performance of all employees
11. create strong disincentives to early retirement, including the adjustment of early retirement penalties, and through a gradual elimination of grandfathering to statutory retirement age and early retirement pathways
12. provide to people retiring after 30 June 2015 the basic, guaranteed contributory, and means tested pensions
13. launch the tender process for the issuing of 4G and 5G licences.
14. extend Gross Gaming Revenues (GGR) taxation of 30% on VLT games
15. extend implementation of luxury tax on recreational vessels in excess of 10 meters and increase the rate from 10% to 13%
16. reduce the expenditure ceiling for military spending by 400 million with a targeted set of actions, including a reduction in headcount and procurement;
17. abolish subsidies for excise on diesel oil for farmers and better target eligibility to halve heating oil subsidies expenditure in the budget 2016;
18. close possibilities for income tax avoidance (e.g., tighten the definition of farmers), take measures to increase the corporate income tax in 2015 and require 100 percent advance payments for corporate income as well as individual business income tax by end-2016; eliminate the preferential tax treatment of farmers in the income tax code; raise the solidarity surcharge;
19. and I can go for almost all the other points....

Honestly, 99% of those reforms should have been implemented 20 years ago. These points shouldn't be even on the table for a develop country inside the EU...

sisse

Don't know if you read the specific points I made above but I said the rest of the text shall be accepted with or without bailout.

But as above:

- Greek's main industry is tourism. Islands have a special vat status of 13%. If it is now changed to 23%, how could they compete to Spain, Italy, France, Turkey with 0-5% vat on tourist sites? I don't know where you are coming from, but would you accept having your main country income / production taxed to death and kill the sector? Or increase the taxes by 100% on the poorest areas of your country (because other than 10 islands with massive tourism, the rest are in the list of the poorest areas across EU). You could walk to France and ask them to increase taxes in Paris by 100% in hotels, restaurants, go to Germany and ask them to increase tax on car production by 100%, go to UK and ask them to tax their banking sector by 100%. Would you think any of them would accept it? The same applies to the shipping industry.

- Would you decrease your military spending if you had a neighbor with which you are at the brink of war for the last 200 years and had a recent war (40 years ago on Cyprus)? Not to discount ISIS approaching.

- If you had competitive disadvantage to your neighbors because of lower taxes would you raise your own to make it even worse? Greek corporate taxes are from the highest in EU already on par with Germany and France (33% above Euro 50.000, would be 35% with the increase from 26 to 28%).

- Would you impose a property tax and seize houses from people who are unemployed for the past 5 years? And then raise it?

- In an era with 26% unemployment, with 50% unemployment of youth (18-30), would you cut pensions further (30% already cut since 2010) which is the last remaining funding for many families and cause social unrest?

If you would accept the above in your country you are welcome to come here and vote 'yes' in my place

good point... I think ill make it a steak and eggs in honor of PTL (that is his favorite) and come back to it later. still holding a little AUD/USD buy from average of 76.42... Risk free now so I think ill hold on to it and see what happens..

Well, last from me, then I'm gone again:

The tragedy is that the new greek government has successfully played the 'honor of the country'-card. Reading what sakisf writes: who indeed would vote yes?
But what is the constructive way out of the mess? The government has backed itself into a corner and now takes the nuclear option, blaming everything on all the others. The EZ has 334 mln citizens, Greece 11 mln. Why should the rejection of a not-anymore-existing-offer be helpful in negotiations? What about referendums in the other countries?

A former colleague of mine in Bosnia once told me when talking about the political mess (three ethnicies, international supervision, etc.) there: 'it would have been better to lose the war, that would have clearified the situation.' I know, I know, you can't compare, and a war is very bad. I only say this to make this point: sometimes you need a clear cut. Countries default all the time (Greece alone 5 times since 1800), and you get a clean slate afterwards. The fallout of this default, if it comes to that, will be the EZ's problem to deal with. The eurogroup seems confident it can deal with it, the jury is still very much out on that.

I would vote no. But it was foolish from the government to let it come to that. But they are a bunch of inexperienced, idological and nationalistic amateurs, so no big surprise. Shame on the eurogroup, which lets itself fool twice, thrice, n-ice....

I agree with the amateur stance of the government. But at least this one tried to work a better deal for the people. They never said that we are not going to make a deal. The offered terms from EU were always the same (exactly as in the paper of the Commission) since February as Tsipras said last night. They did not budge in a single term for 5 months, like they were either trying to force us out of EZ or overthrowing the gov't. They put him in the corner and now he is making a last attack. He said that if people vote 'yes' he will make the terms a law of the country and then resign.

its getting ugly again and why i dont know

1. ---> On VAT, sadly that's call a level playing field. In France, Spain and across the EU etc the VAT is the VAT for all industries the same ....so you will have to compete on quality as the rest of the continent (I wouldnt worry too much, the beauty of Greece wont deter anybody to enjoy your great country). Can you please link to the specific details on this proposal?

1. ---> On military expenditure. Absolutely I would even cut more !!!. Greece is one the highest defence % GDP expenditure in the WORLD and the highest in THE continent Russia included !!!!. Only the middle east countries are higherer....

"Move on" is my theory, nobody is going to attack Greece in the next few hundred years. Worst if you are in NATO by a NATO member and you are part of the EU .... Sorry to break it up but Greece is irrelevant for macro military affairs ...give that money to your pensioners!!!! and invest the other half in proper economic growth programs ....maybe in a few years when Greece is mega rich you can waste more money in military expenditure and even have a few nukes if they want but first the people, after the dreams of empire ....

 

1. ---> Corporate Taxes. I kind of agree that is too high and it shouldn't be more than a very short term increase (maybe 2 or 3 years) until you balance your book. Thankfully Greece is in the EU, because idiotic policy in some other members (like in France, Belgium, etc) will make that rate still sound low....

This 2 taxes show you the core of the problem in Greece. There is nowhere to find income!!!!. Greece needs to think about proper economic growth plans instead of squeezing the tourism and the 80% of the workforce working for the public sector .... maintaining the status quo is a no no in the long run...

 

1. ----> On the property tax. Please link to source, cause is way to technical and I don't exactly know the details.

1. ----> On pensions. I am not sure if that the 30% applies to all pensioners. Its a bit misleading as (for what I understand) is tackling some loopholes of those who abuse the pension system and it wont apply to the ones already receiving it...

...but that is too technical for discussion so sure it can and it should be openly discussed ...but NOT in a hurry on a Referendum, AT the LAST MINUTE with your BANKs CLOSE, a Country Bankrupt, your neighbours starting to hate you and the whole world embarrassed for the sad state of the Greek economy and its politicians....

The current government alone had 8 MONTHs to do it and since the last bailouts, Greece had 6 YEARs!!!! to come with ideas and proposals .... so sorry mate .... sound like a bad case of corruption and inept Government since this debt crisis started ....sorry you can't blame anyone but your government for having to humiliate yourself to the IMF, ECB and EZ governments

sisse

Hey ...how are you mate ...AUD long? ....hm ....gl

sisse

[quote=sisse;8355556]{quote} ---> On VAT, sadly that's call a level playing field. In France, Spain and across the EU etc the VAT is the VAT for all industries the same

Sorry, this is not truth. The VAT it's not the same for all the countries in all the industries or all the products...