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Trading Without a StopLoss

  • #2,281
  • Aug 22, 2014 11:10pm Aug 22, 2014 11:10pm
Quoting ZebraSquirl
... I also use different tools depending on how I feel about the way a given pair is presenting on the chart. My two major tools are Pivot Points and directional grids. I use Pivot Point set-up's to catch bounces or dips a pair experiences intraday ... . But what if a pair isn't "bouncing"? Recently, EUR/USD started to tick me off a bit and pivot point good for day entry orders to sell at a particular pivot weren't working. The pair was tanking big time, but I couldn't catch any bounces, well ... because it wasn't bouncing. It was dropping and then...
My take on the EUR right now is to not worry with it - they're in uncharted territory re: monetary policy, so, My take is to wait that one out and look for other opportunities in more "sane" places if there is such a thing...

Moves up on EUR, IMO, will continue to be sharp and fast because of EUR buyers facilitating transactions won't want to hold EUR any longer than absolutely necessary to avoid holding costs..but there will come a time where the tide will change and EUR could be the "flavor of the week" for a whole week...
"Holy Grail" exists - accepting where is the first step.
  • #2,282
  • Aug 23, 2014 7:26am Aug 23, 2014 7:26am
If you trading this way... Can u tell us if u have any strategy u using why u dont use SL... Cos i cant stake my real money this way?
what if the trade go against u???
  • #2,283
  • Aug 24, 2014 2:38pm Aug 24, 2014 2:38pm
donot trade without a stoploss. the market can be more unpredictable than your girlfriend
  • #2,284
  • Aug 24, 2014 4:44pm Aug 24, 2014 4:44pm
I'm making some experiences with hedging in a demo account, and the account is positive at this moment.
But i think in long term hedging blows any account.
I think best money management is to trade with high risk/reward
  • #2,285
  • Aug 24, 2014 6:51pm Aug 24, 2014 6:51pm
Quoting lastborn4
If you trading this way... Can u tell us if u have any strategy u using why u dont use SL... Cos i cant stake my real money this way? what if the trade go against u???
I think you'll have to read through the whole thread to see how no SL strategies are managed ... .
Fireworks are fun ... as long as you don't blow your fingers off.
  • #2,286
  • Aug 24, 2014 7:02pm Aug 24, 2014 7:02pm
Quoting VaBikePacker
{quote} My take on the EUR right now is to not worry with it - they're in uncharted territory re: monetary policy, so, My take is to wait that one out and look for other opportunities in more "sane" places if there is such a thing... Moves up on EUR, IMO, will continue to be sharp and fast because of EUR buyers facilitating transactions won't want to hold EUR any longer than absolutely necessary to avoid holding costs..but there will come a time where the tide will change and EUR could be the "flavor of the week" for a whole week...
The ECB is kind of flailing around at the moment ... . Doesn't seem like they have a firm grasp on things, and the model for the Eurozone is a bit problematic. You have outperforming countries like Germany and then dramatically underperforming countries like Spain. Some of the underperforming countries' problems have to be addressed through the IMF, which may influence how the ECB approaches the overall problem or require a coordinated effort between the ECB and the IMF. Coordination of anything does not seem to be one of the ECB's strong suits and neither does speed ... .

Nevertheless, the (somewhat) muddled signal I'm getting from the ECB is that they are going to start easing soon. (Just starting that now, guys? Really?)

Fortunately, there are plenty of other dishes on the menu to choose from ... . It's just that I've gravitated to trading EUR/USD for so long that my tendency is to look for trades in that pair as a kind of default trade and then to look to other crosses secondarily.
Fireworks are fun ... as long as you don't blow your fingers off.
  • #2,287
  • Aug 24, 2014 8:15pm Aug 24, 2014 8:15pm
Quoting nc_trader
I'm making some experiences with hedging in a demo account, and the account is positive at this moment. But i think in long term hedging blows any account. I think best money management is to trade with high risk/reward
Precise understanding of range is critical for hedging...However, if you're not over leveraging an account, hedging is fine...
"Holy Grail" exists - accepting where is the first step.
  • #2,288
  • Aug 24, 2014 9:42pm Aug 24, 2014 9:42pm
Quoting ericnyamu
donot trade without a stoploss. the market can be more unpredictable than your girlfriend
The unpredictability of the market is why I do not use stop loss. market will dip against long-term trend, take out your stops and then come back. You do need some intelligent way of closing a trade in loss, to avoid the "death trade". Fixed stop loss is not an intelligent enough way close close a loss for me.
read through the thread.read my posts. If you are making more money than I am, don't listen to me.
  • #2,289
  • Aug 24, 2014 9:55pm Aug 24, 2014 9:55pm
Quoting lastborn4
If you trading this way... Can u tell us if u have any strategy u using why u dont use SL... Cos i cant stake my real money this way? what if the trade go against u???
This is how long term Fundamental traders trade, totally foreign to the average FF trader. This is not news trading it is trading the long term trend of a currency pair. In 2005 the eur was on a 12 month DT so you didnt need to buy just sell. 2006, 2007, 2008 and half the year you would only do buys. 2009 would be buys and so on. I noticed the EUR changed direction in 2014 so I only do sells. No need to use a SL just hang with the long term trend and ride the wave. Sell the rallies in the DT. Just do it over and over and over. That is fundamental long term trading. That is one of the best ways to trade successfully. Guys who trades with millions of dollars trade this way but they dont use high leverage so price can bounce around all it wants but following these trends makes life so much easier for you. If you think someone who buys 10 million in USD this month had a 30 or 100 pip SL you are high.
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  • #2,290
  • Aug 24, 2014 10:22pm Aug 24, 2014 10:22pm
hi
if you are trading a considerable account size and amount of money then a stop loss is a must it is money after all who likes to lose it quick
all have a nice day
focus while relaxed to see better
  • #2,291
  • Aug 24, 2014 10:53pm Aug 24, 2014 10:53pm
Quoting irongoose
{quote} I used to trade this way also and for the longest time it worked as long as I had enough money in the account to cover everything, had I continued trading this way I would have lost everything when the Euro started its march from 1.22 to 1.37 without even stopping for good US news bad Euro news all because Draghi said he was going to save the EURO. Trading without stops will come back and bite you one day when the market trends for weeks or months and you've waited to long to exit your position. If you can't make up your mind now how big...

See my post above. Trading without a SL doesnt mean you dont take losses. It means you go with the direction of the long term trend or fundamental. Euro sells is all I will do right now and probably for the rest of the year. Its going down so I wait for a rally and then trade down. The monthly charts only change direction 1-3 times a year so if you stay with it then you can relax and let the trades run. When the fundamental changes then you change with it. Close out your losers and change direction. That is how it should be done.
  • #2,292
  • Aug 24, 2014 10:56pm Aug 24, 2014 10:56pm
Quoting orabi
hi if you are trading a considerable account size and amount of money then a stop loss is a must it is money after all who likes to lose it quick all have a nice day
Account size means nothing, trade sizing is everything. If you have a 1,000,000 dollar account and you trade one dollar lots you would have to lose a million pips to lose your account. A monkey tapping trades on a key board couldnt do that, lose a million pips. If you trade 10 dollar lots then you would need to lose 100,000 pips. Lot size to account size is where beginners get creamed in this business.
  • #2,293
  • Aug 25, 2014 12:08am Aug 25, 2014 12:08am
i use 1:500 leverege & my acount size is 700 USD.
If i trade without stop loss will it effect to my account?

Pls advise,,,


Helanka
Helanka
  • #2,294
  • Aug 25, 2014 12:16am Aug 25, 2014 12:16am
Quoting Helanka
i use 1:500 leverege & my acount size is 700 USD. If i trade without stop loss will it effect to my account? Pls advise,,, Helanka
Helanka,

Just because your account is set up for 1:500 leverage doesn't mean you have to maximize your leverage on your trades. Even though you could open a trade for over 3.00 doesn't mean you should. Just as NanningBob explained, if you were to open a trade with 0.01 lots of Eur/USD instead, it would have to go against you 700 pips for you to lose all of your capital.

GREEN pips to you always.
  • #2,295
  • Aug 25, 2014 12:19am Aug 25, 2014 12:19am
Quoting nanningbob
{quote} Account size means nothing, trade sizing is everything. If you have a 1,000,000 dollar account and you trade one dollar lots you would have to lose a million pips to lose your account. A monkey tapping trades on a key board couldnt do that, lose a million pips. If you trade 10 dollar lots then you would need to lose 100,000 pips. Lot size to account size is where beginners get creamed in this business.
Couldn't agree more with this. Every beginner starts out over leveraged. They then compound this initial error with over trading. They don't give price a chance to move.
If you are good at something, never do it for free--Joker
  • #2,296
  • Aug 25, 2014 3:29am Aug 25, 2014 3:29am
Quoting Helanka
i use 1:500 leverege & my acount size is 700 USD. If i trade without stop loss will it effect to my account? Pls advise,,, Helanka
I don't usually post outside of my thread, not a lot anyway, but i couldn't help to answer this Newbie question, so here is the plan :

1 - Lower your leverage to 1:20 Max.
2 - Lower your Position sizing to the minimum available at this stage, i guess for a micro its 0.1 don't u ever increase it to 0.2 until you have @ least 5000 $.
3 - At this stage of the learning curve its absolutely forbidden to trade live, NEVER EVER, why you ask because you don't even know what to do with or without stop loss thus the advice question.
4 - Don't EVER trade the lower TF's @ this time focus on the Higher ones D1 and W1, yes it takes a lot of patience but this is what you have to do to learn to be a successful trader, Discipline and Patience, the first one to follow your rules and the second one to wait for your rules to align.
5 - When you have perfected the Higher TF's go down one notch to the H4 and etc....

Conclusion : 1- Lower leverage and lower trade number because margin don't allow it = Perfect for newbies.
2 - The lowest Trade size possible to expose yourself to the least amount of risk possible.
3 - Higher timeframes to see the forest from the trees and to avoid as much as possible the chop .

Brokers outside of the US gives u 1:500 leverage taking in consideration that you are a newbie because 2 -3 wrong calls with this leverage can wipe out your 700 $ its not that they care about 700 $ bucks but it adds up over time that's the casinos edge mentality.
Don't fool yourself into thinking that u can be rich quick, get rich YES but slowly, very slow, learn you craft first with the least risk possible even on demo.

Just saying.

Best,
B.R.
Master Your Setup, Master Your self. (NQoos)
  • #2,297
  • Aug 25, 2014 7:06am Aug 25, 2014 7:06am
Quoting nanningbob
{quote} Account size means nothing, trade sizing is everything. If you have a 1,000,000 dollar account and you trade one dollar lots you would have to lose a million pips to lose your account. A monkey tapping trades on a key board couldnt do that, lose a million pips. If you trade 10 dollar lots then you would need to lose 100,000 pips. Lot size to account size is where beginners get creamed in this business.
(x1000000000000)
"Holy Grail" exists - accepting where is the first step.
  • #2,298
  • Aug 25, 2014 7:08am Aug 25, 2014 7:08am
Quoting Helanka
i use 1:500 leverege & my acount size is 700 USD. If i trade without stop loss will it effect to my account? Pls advise,,, Helanka
Look at the "margin" field on your trading platform. Learn how much money you "donate" to enter a trade and how it impacts your free margin. Your free margin is the amount of money you have left in your account once you've entered a trade.
"Holy Grail" exists - accepting where is the first step.
  • #2,299
  • Aug 25, 2014 8:42am Aug 25, 2014 8:42am
Quoting Helanka
i use 1:500 leverege & my acount size is 700 USD. If i trade without stop loss will it effect to my account? Pls advise,,, Helanka
If your margin falls below $500.00 stop entering trades and consider closing trade in loss. .01 lot is maximum you should trade. No more than two trades per pair open at any one time, only one if you are subject to fifo.

I suggest you add to your account to get it to $1000 as soon as possible.
keep your margin % above 200. you should have twice as much free margin as you haave P/L.

This will help you survive until you start seeing what is actually going on. Ever pair is coordinated with five others. When a currency makes a sizeable more, some pairs will go up, and some down, depending whether the currency appears first, or last in the pair.When neither currency in a pair is in focus by the central banks open at the time, The pair is unlikely to do much. ( gbp/usd: deader than a doornail in the afternoon session in the us, because no central bank has either currency in top focus).

These general rules can be broken at any time, and sometimes for reasons that are carefully hidden from the public.
  • #2,300
  • Aug 25, 2014 9:30am Aug 25, 2014 9:30am
My management system has a lot of discretionary trading involved. I just finished coding an EA to manage it all for me but even still, the program itself allots for discretionary opening and closing of trades.

I'm still of the opinion that the key to long term survival - and even advancement - in this business is to continue funding the account (as well as withdraw) as opposed to taking what meager capital you can scrounge up and risking only that. Companies that utilize markets to make their money never go into battle with a fixed amount of capital. I think, at that point in the equation, is where retail mindset evaporates. Most retail traders begin with a fixed amount of capital, usually, it isn't a lot. As such, they want to hang on to every penny they can; super tight stops rationalized by the whole "risk/reward" adage. As time goes on, they get used to being stopped out all the damn time. The people who come in and say "no stop loss will blow your account" are people who only have so much money to risk and can only afford to lose it all once. If you're actually in this business and use it as a way to generate a living, eventually, you're going to lose what you started with. Even if you start with $20K and work your way up to $100K, chances are, somewhere in between, your aggregate losses will eventually add up to that original $20K.

If you can blow your account trading without a stop loss there's two reasons for it:

(1) You don't have enough money
(2) Your lot sizes are irresponsibly large

For example, if you have an account with $20,000 in it and you're trading 1K lots, you can legitimately enter a handful of pairs that can return to 0 and still not wipe out your account. As such, this allots you the freedom to open dozens of 1K positions across a multitude of pairs and simply manage it from the terminal window. Not that you want to hold losing positions forever but, given the amount of price movement and time it would take for an individual position to significantly impact the account, you have more than enough stretch to manage it, even manually. It's simple, most retail folks want to be "day traders" - okay, trade every day. How do you know whether or not to buy or sell for the day? Complex indicators littering your screen? Technical analysis? Why not just month is up -> buy every day or month is down -> sell every day? How do you manage losers? Well, you could always use a stop loss, but if the month is still going in the direction of the trade why not give it 2-3 days to recover? Think the month may be reversing off a high or low? Okay, so switch sides of the market. Think the month is sideways (lots of days crossing the monthly open)? Okay, stay out of that pair, move to another.

Will you take losses? Of course. But you're trading in the direction of a monthly bar (or trend) and, just like everyone else, you're making a guess that whatever condition the market is in when you entered will continue for at least enough time for you to make a profit. Most people fight market complexities with analytic complexity. I'd rather find a way to fight it with simplicity. To me, ignoring all the minutia is the way that suits me.

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