Market Relativity | Page 3 | Forex Factory

Options

Go to
Permalinks
Print Thread

Similar Threads

market Theory 101 Supply and Demand,Market Cycles 7 replies

Relativity ideas 3 replies

Hello - Price Relativity 8 replies

Market Size (S+P 500 compared to Forex Market?) 0 replies

Time in the Market, Beats Timing the Market? Does this work in FX?? 7 replies

Attachments: Market Relativity
Exit Attachments

Market Relativity

  • #41
  • Jun 19, 2014 9:16am Jun 19, 2014 9:16am
Quoting gspajon
{quote} Far simpler than that...my data feed separates buying from selling in its volume feed. This is yet another reason why MT4 is not worth the effort it takes to throw it away. I wasted several years trying to determine buying from selling on MT4 but gave up in frustration. I will give you this idea on how I started, but I warn you I gave up on it after awhile because it doesn't show anything more than what a price bar already shows...it does not contain enough of the variables. Bullish volume = ((close-low)/(high-low)) * volume; Bearish volume...
I guess another thing I could do is just collect the ticks, down ticks will be down volume and up ticks will be up volume.

I looked into TradeStation, looks like the data feed costs like $100/month right?
Focus, Patience, Determination & Order in chaos
  • #42
  • Jun 19, 2014 9:22am Jun 19, 2014 9:22am
Quoting saver0
{quote} I guess another thing I could do is just collect the ticks, down ticks will be down volume and up ticks will be up volume. I looked into TradeStation, looks like the data feed costs like $100/month right?
Yes that is true...(you get what you pay for). However, if you trade with trade station and make 10 trades or more per month, they don't charge for their software license...they do however charge for the data feed(s) you select. Forex, Futures, Options, Stocks, indexes, Bonds...and on and on. There are data "packages" but you have access to the ENTIRE financial markets...not just what is selected by your broker, AND your transactions are transparent, NOT held by the broker...i.e. Trade Station is not the counter party to your trade. You might also look into Ninja trader...some places (like forex brokers) provide that free of charge like MT4...but Ninja trader uses a more transparent data feed...you WILL have to pay for that...also look at E-signal...same story next verse.
  • #43
  • Edited 10:22am Jun 19, 2014 9:49am | Edited 10:22am
Agree with Gspajon,

TradeStation +1 which I use now and a +1 for Ninja Trader as well which I used prior to TradeStation. The right software is everything. You have to spend a little money in the beginning to make a lot of money later. My trading took off once I moved to better software.

Update: Not to drag this out but can I use crap software now and get the same results? Absolutely but only because I had the best tools first to R&D with.

Quoting saver0
{quote} I guess another thing I could do is just collect the ticks, down ticks will be down volume and up ticks will be up volume. I looked into TradeStation, looks like the data feed costs like $100/month right?
SPC * Swollen PocketZ Crew!
  • #44
  • Jun 19, 2014 10:35am Jun 19, 2014 10:35am
Thanks for that Joe. I will look into Ninja Trader, I like C#. I heard in TS MTF coding is complicated/difficult.

As for the thread's title.. have you guys looked into application actual General Relativity?
Focus, Patience, Determination & Order in chaos
  • #45
  • Jun 19, 2014 11:26am Jun 19, 2014 11:26am
Quoting saver0
Thanks for that Joe. I will look into Ninja Trader, I like C#. I heard in TS MTF coding is complicated/difficult.
To qualify what I am about to say...I am NOT a coder nor do I understand most of the coding languages out there...I did teach myself to program MQ4 (enough to write losing EA's and indicators)...

Ninja Trader and Trade Station and E-signal for that matter, use easy language programming language. I have played with it enough to write the indicators I have mentioned in this thread. I found it far easier to program (perhaps because I had some experience in MQ4). From what I've seen in your posts here you have WAY more experience than I do, and would probably find it much easier to code your project. As well I know (for at least trade station) there is a support forum - like this one - through trade station filled with people who know the language very well...not to mention there is much documentation out there to help you transition.

When I first started I was dreading learning another language, having not fully understood the one I was working with. However I have since found it is easier and far more compact, making the files smaller and do not use as much processing energy leaving more free to stream the data.

Quoting saver0
As for the thread's title.. have you guys looked into application actual General Relativity?
In a prior post I mentioned my thoughts on Einstein and how I started thinking along these lines...Post #19
  • #46
  • Jun 19, 2014 11:39am Jun 19, 2014 11:39am
Quoting gspajon
{quote} To qualify what I am about to say...I am NOT a coder nor do I understand most of the coding languages out there...I did teach myself to program MQ4 (enough to write losing EA's and indicators)... Ninja Trader and Trade Station and E-signal for that matter, use easy language programming language. I have played with it enough to write the indicators I have mentioned in this thread. I found it far easier to program (perhaps because I had some experience in MQ4). From what I've seen in your posts here you have WAY more experience than I do,...
Appreciate your comments about the TS and NT. I have looked into NT a bit before. A good friend of mine worked with TS (who is a senior programmer) and had some difficulty figuring out the MTF indicator feed/manipulation so he moved on to NT since it was much easier there (according to him). I'm not saying TS is worse than NT or anything.. haven't tried it myself. For writing complicated stuff one might be better than the other. I'm thinking NT will be better since its C# and can easily be extended to include other libraries and what not.. but anyways.. sorry if I moved this away from the thread's main point.

So to get back to the main thread idea.. I played around with the concept of velocity. I figured out the average velocity of the 1min time bar's in H1/H4 and made a line chart. And what do you know.. even that alone is showing me when the M1 speed is slowing down (bull vs bears), the bulls taking over when the bears are slowing down and bears taking over when bulls slowing down. The divergence/convergence seems to be very accurate based on the limited looking back I have done. This is probably a bit different from your implementation (it seems that way) but seems to be giving some advance warning of trend changes/continuation.. I'm liking this already.. I will do some more back testing later after lunch!

It will be interesting to apply this to currency strength so I can take apart just the EUR or USD etc and see its average velocity of the M1 bars... that might tell me how one might be moving faster than the other..

Thanks again for bringing forward this concept/idea
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: screen1.png Size: 35 KB
Focus, Patience, Determination & Order in chaos
  • #47
  • Jun 19, 2014 11:54am Jun 19, 2014 11:54am
Saver...it seems to me you have grasped the concept completely and have almost instantaneously translated that into a graphic representation of what I have been talking about...I am jealous of your learning curve. You are clearly more accomplished at programming that I am (but that doesn't say much). If you have a way to "collect and store" tick data (upticks and downticks) you will OWN MT4.

You are the MAN!!

Again from your graphs I can see the exhaustion spikes that occur just before the turns in price, which in and of themselves I think will save you pips for positions and/or give you better entry points.
  • #48
  • Jun 19, 2014 12:23pm Jun 19, 2014 12:23pm
Velocity is much easier to see on a tick chart. For example on FXCM:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...tick_chart.png

Notice the sharp moves which are then faded.

I can't understand how people can scalp on M1 candle charts, you lose all the velocity information there.
  • #49
  • Jun 19, 2014 12:57pm Jun 19, 2014 12:57pm
Quoting gspajon
Saver...it seems to me you have grasped the concept completely and have almost instantaneously translated that into a graphic representation of what I have been talking about...I am jealous of your learning curve. You are clearly more accomplished at programming that I am (but that doesn't say much). If you have a way to "collect and store" tick data (upticks and downticks) you will OWN MT4. You are the MAN!! Again from your graphs I can see the exhaustion spikes that occur just before the turns in price, which in and of themselves I...
Thank you so much for your kind words

I will try to improve it some more, right now it's not looking at the ticks but I will make another version and see how she looks in the morning

Thanks again for starting this thread and your generous contribution!!
Focus, Patience, Determination & Order in chaos
  • #50
  • Jun 19, 2014 1:01pm Jun 19, 2014 1:01pm
Quoting gspajon
Saver...it seems to me you have grasped the concept completely and have almost instantaneously translated that into a graphic representation of what I have been talking about...If you have a way to "collect and store" tick data (upticks and downticks) you will OWN MT4. You are the MAN!! Again from your graphs I can see the exhaustion spikes that occur just before the turns in price, which in and of themselves I think will save you pips for positions and/or give you better entry points.
Hi gspajon ... I don't know if this will address the storage of, or upticks and downticks (separately) but I've always wanted tick charts and all I have is MT4 to work with. I recently came across 2 indies that allow for it. One collects, the other posts to the chart. It's not very user friendly but if they can help I'll gladly attach them with instructions for you deeper brains to have a look at. If not, I'll gladly remove this post as to not clutter up this great thread.

Oh, please ignore the ma's. Just a humble little signal project I'm working on.

This is an offline MT4 233 tick for GU.
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: !t-gbpusdmm233.png Size: 51 KB


This is the M1 chart they're attached to.
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: gbpusdmm1.png Size: 49 KB
Ghost Rider - WWTBMD?
  • #51
  • Jun 19, 2014 2:14pm Jun 19, 2014 2:14pm
Quoting albchr
{quote} Hi gspajon ... I recently came across 2 indies that allow for it. One collects, the other posts to the chart. It's not very user friendly but if they can help I'll gladly attach them with instructions for you deeper brains to have a look at.
It certainly won't hurt my feelings if you want to post the indicators here on this thread...perhaps someone will benefit. As I have completely migrated away from MT4 I will most likely NOT benefit.

I started migrating away when Metaquotes started changing the platform coding...I'm sure we all remember that. Then when my broker (FXDD) closed up shop in the US, I decided to just stay away from retail spot forex entirely...I guess the CFTC got what they wanted with me...to drive me into futures.

I decided that if I was going to have to learn a new programming language anyway it might as well be one that I can use with better results. I have never looked back. The detail and vast variety of data available with my new provider is overwhelming and (like JoeNY) has stretched my brain to its limit, but has allowed me to grow tremendously...if nothing else THAT is worth $100/month.
  • #52
  • Jun 19, 2014 2:23pm Jun 19, 2014 2:23pm
Quoting Adal
Velocity is much easier to see on a tick chart. For example on FXCM:
Hello Adal. Charts of a single tick move far to quickly for my limited ability to think...further, I like to see a little more data to show who is in control (buyer vs seller) on the larger scheme.

Also keep in mind price (or price velocity) is only of one several variables that I monitor. To my way of thinking a single tick up or down, or even a series of ticks up or down really doesn't establish control.
  • #53
  • Jun 19, 2014 2:57pm Jun 19, 2014 2:57pm
Quoting gspajon
{quote} Hello Adal. Charts of a single tick move far to quickly for my limited ability to think...further, I like to see a little more data to show who is in control (buyer vs seller) on the larger scheme. Also keep in mind price (or price velocity) is only of one several variables that I monitor. To my way of thinking a single tick up or down, or even a series of ticks up or down really doesn't establish control.
Sure, I also have a more complex velocity setup.

I use intrinsic time coupled with the FX scaling laws (both proposed by Olsen Research). They computed what is the average "speed" of the market, and that allows you to compute deviations from it.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...l_change_1.png

This is how the market looks in intrinsic time (it's a sort of Renko):
https://www.olseninvest.com/customer...insictime1.png

https://www.olseninvest.com/customer...trategy_sl.png
  • #54
  • Jun 19, 2014 2:58pm Jun 19, 2014 2:58pm
Quoting gspajon
I have an idea that has been floating around in my head now for several years. Recently I have quantified that idea into a formula. I hinted at this idea in my last thread and was slammed something pretty good because, as one reply put it, "If you walk into a lions cage with bacon strapped to your ass expect to get mauled." Those who have belittled in the past will most likely do so again...just to demonstrate their closed minded ignorance. However I am quite certain that this will be my last thread started here so I will reply to any who post with...
Great Thread man, I agree with the things you say, I have been down the rabbit hole infact I am down the rabbit hole right now. The reasons in your post are some of the very reasons why I left trading on a chart. The market is just price trying to get from one level to the next, and if you know how it works properly you don't even need to use much, not even S/R which are only places where market orders come in. A chart can actually mess up the flow of information that you could have gotten and put them on 2 separate sessions (candles), and by the time you analyze what happened the market is gone. I think most people should leave the charts and just look at the flashing of the pairs on the new york session for a few days, you can learn more from that thing, than from years of reading any books. The market moves very differently in almost all stages of it's cycles.
Being a trader is lonely, but being a great trader is lonelier still
  • #55
  • Jun 19, 2014 3:01pm Jun 19, 2014 3:01pm
Quoting gspajon
{quote} It certainly won't hurt my feelings if you want to post the indicators here on this thread...perhaps someone will benefit. As I have completely migrated away from MT4 I will most likely NOT benefit. I started migrating away when Metaquotes started changing the platform coding...I'm sure we all remember that. Then when my broker (FXDD) closed up shop in the US, I decided to just stay away from retail spot forex entirely...I guess the CFTC got what they wanted with me...to drive me into futures. I decided that if I was going to have to learn...
Understood. The thought came to me from your reply to saver0 about "owning Mt4". He's probably light years ahead already but I figured maybe he could dissect and work with them (if they're of any value) to provide what you suggested. I understand the limitations in volume feed you've described with MT4 and the brokers but hey, maybe a watered down version for us poor folks? lol

I'll post the indies here and rather than recreate a long post here, just a link to my thread with all of it for those interested.

http://www.forexfactory.com/showthre...05#post7502505
Attached File(s)
File Type: ex4 LogTickData.ex4   3 KB | 325 downloads
File Type: mq4 LogTickData.mq4   3 KB | 388 downloads
File Type: ex4 PostTickData.ex4   8 KB | 350 downloads
File Type: mq4 PostTickData.mq4   10 KB | 353 downloads
Ghost Rider - WWTBMD?
  • #56
  • Jun 19, 2014 3:29pm Jun 19, 2014 3:29pm
Quoting saneblane
...I think most people should leave the charts and just look at the flashing of the pairs on the new york session for a few days, you can learn more from that thing, than from years of reading any books. The market moves very differently in almost all stages of it's cycles.
I actually tried this several times. I pulled up a quote screen and just watched it change from red-to-green-red-to-green...I was clueless!!

Another trusted friend advised I try this as well and thus I tried again...for those of us that are visual (as opposed to auditory, or kinesthetic) this was a disaster for me. Perhaps I didn't give it enough of a chance, but if I can "see" where price turns and discern a pattern or "see" the variable all working together to produce an outcome (vis-a-vi, a price move) I understand it far better.

For me, charts are a must, even though as you say they can lead to false assumptions if you stick to just a single constant like time vs price. That is why I try to "adjust" for as many variable as possible and stay away from a constant even though there must be at least one constant to actually draw a chart. Most are used to time constants as that is the basis for most graphical (beginner level) representation.

But again I am not an statistician, mathematician, or even good at anything but the most basic of algebra. Further, I don't think math can completely envelope the market (even though that is what I am attempting to do here). Perhaps that is why my success rate is only 60%. I don't think the human variable can ever be accurately quantified.
  • #57
  • Edited 5:01pm Jun 19, 2014 3:54pm | Edited 5:01pm
Quoting gspajon
{quote} I actually tried this several times. I pulled up a quote screen and just watched it change from red-to-green-red-to-green...I was clueless!! Another trusted friend advised I try this as well and thus I tried again...for those of us that are visual (as opposed to auditory, or kinesthetic) this was a disaster for me. Perhaps I didn't give it enough of a chance, but if I can "see" where price turns and discern a pattern or "see" the variable all working together to produce an outcome (vis-a-vi, a price move) I understand it far better. For...

Well I guess I am different I guess, it must be a gift. I will add though that I do use use technicals for Stocks and other markets (Price Volume Analysis), I could use it for forex too, but i found something that is better for me. So I know exactly where you are coming from, infact i could even say what I do is a form of Wyckoff but an updated version. I Will say this much though, you don't have to quantify human behavior, everything is all relative, what you are trying to do is find gaps (moments where the market is in the wrong place) market, and they do exist, the good thing about them, is that just the same way you get the signal to enter is the same way you could exit. For instant if the market don't move my way in 1 or 2 candles (or instances however you define that) then I close the trade, because If for whatever reason it didn't then something else must be going on, and the opposite of my direction has to be bad. You do the same thing with Volume when you say, if that bar was down on a large volume bar and this bar is down or a little up bar on equal or more volume then that is buying. It's all a part of being a detective, but sometimes you have to take the loss and move on, the winners should add up more. Lol don't worry about it man, keep pushing you might find the answer you need.

Ps: I am not a mathematician either, i work in networking, but I sure envy those programmers, I have so many ideas that I would like to test out.
Being a trader is lonely, but being a great trader is lonelier still
  • #58
  • Jun 19, 2014 3:56pm Jun 19, 2014 3:56pm
Quoting mzvega
{quote} Could you elaborate? Could you give an working example of what you mean by "mechanize" a concept? (somehow I missed this)
Hi mzvega,

I don't wish to ramble on this subject on this fine thread so have summarised my thoughts in relation to your questions here:
http://www.forexfactory.com/showthre...66#post7549066

I hope you don't take offence, I see Dalton is one of your favourite authors, it's just my opinion on the subject. I would urge anyone interested in auction market theory to read from the trader the originally bought it to light and first thought up the graphic we know as Market Profile (JPSteidlmeyer).

Cheers,
  • #59
  • Edited Jun 20, 2014 12:24am Jun 19, 2014 4:44pm | Edited Jun 20, 2014 12:24am
It is a gift. It's old school.

I have a friend who trades APPL stock options with just his cell phone. He's just a regular blue collar guy. He only watches the quotes and he makes serious money. He trades only on Friday when the weekly options are the cheapest and most volatile. I sat next to him twice with my charts trading AAPL. He only stared at his cell phone.

I asked him how he does it. For starters he said well I'm familiar with APPL cause I've been staring at it since forever but it's the same concept for any instrument.

You can gauge volume by the speed of the quotes but the magic is in the up tick, down tick pattern when things slow down. He said I know when the reversal will come and I trade it. It's just something that came to me after watching price for so long.

He knows absolutely nothing about visual charting other then the line chart that pops up on his cell phone by default. He won't even look at that.

Quoting saneblane
{quote} Well I guess I am different I guess, it must be a gift.
SPC * Swollen PocketZ Crew!
  • #60
  • Edited Jun 21, 2014 10:59am Jun 20, 2014 12:36pm | Edited Jun 21, 2014 10:59am
Re-edited.
Being a trader is lonely, but being a great trader is lonelier still
0 traders viewing now