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Is anyone here an institutional trader?

  • #161
  • Edited 7:45pm May 29, 2014 7:22pm | Edited 7:45pm
Quoting JacobFordFX
{quote} I would be surprised if a dealer from a bank would share there order flow with anyone outside of their institution, that's a breach of the code of conduct at my bank. I agree with you, the so called flows and orders look like technical levels, which I'm sure will have orders there but unless its the net position of all institutions trading FX its like you said "bits of info here and there". I not saying they are lying I just don't believe a bank like Goldman or JPMorgan would tell the general population where they have buy and sell orders...
Ditto, ditto, ditto...

Likewise for, say, barrier option levels. Anyways, long story short, the order takers were never supposed to divulge the contents of their orderbooks to anyone. And even if retail traders get that info, the info is incomplete at best, since there are hundreds of order clusters out there you may not know about.

Happily, CURRENT orders TEND to cluster around PRIOR and/or RECENT tested S/R levels (I'm giving you a guys a clue here ), so you don't really NEED order flow info.
I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm not in the "convincing" business.
  • #162
  • May 29, 2014 7:25pm May 29, 2014 7:25pm
Quoting spieler
{quote} I sold my hedge fund more than 8 years ago so am posting now as a private trader even if i still do money management for third parties. #Well when I became a FF member in '07, I was the only institutional I know on FF. I don't know of any other current institutional trader posting here, but am presently retired.# Uncorrect i was a member since 2006 ​
No worries mate! We didn't know the other existed, and I did say I was the only institutional I KNOW.

Cheers!
I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm not in the "convincing" business.
  • #163
  • May 29, 2014 7:28pm May 29, 2014 7:28pm
Quoting FXMasterSK
{quote} Looks just like what one using IFR would get. To my knowledge, MNI does the same thing but I never used them. You can also get reported order flow information from sites like ForexLive or Darkstar's orderflowtrading. One thing we retailers should note is that these are "reported" flows. They aren't cold hard fact, so you can't just rely on them. Price action definitely helps in confirming them and allows you to "read" the past order flow and get a story of what is going on. The reason they tend to cluster around S/R is because so...
You're getting it mate! "Use the FORCE, Luke!"
I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm not in the "convincing" business.
  • #164
  • May 29, 2014 7:40pm May 29, 2014 7:40pm
Quoting phani_genin
retail traders, we see so much emphasis on the Central Banks announcements that do happen quite frequently across different currencies. Implies retails do run into pockets of high vol no matter how much they would want to avoid. Now, do you guys do pay attention to ALL the announcements happening ? or given that you have well informed Analysts giving solid ( inhouse ) reports the positions you take DO NOT need a day2day followup of news. And by news, i specifically point to the Announcement, since Economic data expectations could be priced in through...
Speaking only for myself, I pay attention to "announcements", but *I* decide their relative importance.

In all my years, I don't know any seasoned trader who actually READs their inhouse analyst reports. I think only rookies and structural traders read them, but the day trader guys usually don't.

The reports to us are merely snapshots of what's happening, which becomes pretty useless in a matter of days (if not hours) from release when markets are moving all the time.
I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm not in the "convincing" business.
  • #165
  • May 29, 2014 7:48pm May 29, 2014 7:48pm
Quoting skenobi
{quote} Speaking only for myself, I pay attention to "announcements", but *I* decide their relative importance.
Another confirmation for me that I am doing something right. I guess you get a feel for things once you do it enough. This thread is gold.
Being a trader is lonely, but being a great trader is lonelier still
  • #166
  • May 29, 2014 8:03pm May 29, 2014 8:03pm
Hi Guys,

I agree completely with what Skenobi said about reports. I never read them because they were already outdated by the time I got it. It's really meant for marketing purposes and written by economist and strategists. They are extremely knowledgeable people that can dissect the hell out of the Non -farm payrolls number after the fact. That being said, when the market was quiet I would read a lot of news stories, not to get trading ideas but to get a consensus for what people are thinking about the market. I don't have to believe any of the analysis myself BUT if enough people do they can impact price with their trades and I want to be prepared for that.
  • #167
  • May 30, 2014 1:01am May 30, 2014 1:01am
Quoting JacobFordFX
{quote} So maybe you or someone here can tell me what you mean by order flow from your perspective? I'm curious how you get your information or how you interpret order flow.
For me, it is largely irrellevant what I call it. I guess my approach is akin to price discovery (as in discovering the trigger price). I am still in a state of semi-shock at its accuracy (spot fx) given my modest retailers steup and keeping my cards close to my chest. I have no great aspirations at conquering the heady heights...I simply set out to understand the market followin, my own initiative, for a less fraught trading life.
The road to pipland is arduous and fraught with challenge.
  • #168
  • May 30, 2014 2:20am May 30, 2014 2:20am
(So many posts in this thread already, missed this one...)

Quoting Vogon
From an ITs perspective what is "usually" occurring during candles with long tails or wicks?
Honestly I've never asked myself that question before... LOL.... But I sure do love those pinbars, man! Especially the ones near my S/R levels...

Quoting Vogon
When an IT or the Institution at large finds itself with a large losing position. Say price gaps big against their position. How do they protect their book? Do they somehow hedge and then wait for price to come back to unwind the position? Thanks again
Hmm... In the places I've been, only the structural traders can keep "large losing positions". For the day traders of the team, they can't trade without having clearly-defined stop loss orders (unlike retail traders) that keep them within their daily or weekly or monthly stop loss limits (each trader is given stop loss limits which pretty much limits what he can do). Even structural traders with long term outlooks have to put it in black and white what they intend to do if price moves against them by X hundred pips.
I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm not in the "convincing" business.
  • #169
  • May 30, 2014 3:19am May 30, 2014 3:19am
When the SNB intervened the EURCHF made a huge jump.

What happened to the dealers, did they got any relevant information before that event or were they also caught on the wrong side?

And how did they trade when the SNB put a peg at 1.20 ?
  • #170
  • May 30, 2014 4:17am May 30, 2014 4:17am
Quoting No-Luck
When the SNB intervened the EURCHF made a huge jump. What happened to the dealers, did they got any relevant information before that event or were they also caught on the wrong side?
Doubtful even SNB would alert anybody (even if they had "agent" banks to execute for them), or they lose the element of surprise. You can guess what happened to other traders. All open positions (winners and losers) would've been closed out at the current peg and trading in EURCHF would've effectively ceased.

(I'm just guessing the above based on my own experience dealing with Malaysia's experiment with currency pegs during The Good Ol' Days. )

Quoting No-Luck
And how did they trade when the SNB put a peg at 1.20 ?
huh?? There ARE other currency pairs to trade, you know. The CHF peg was not a deal-breaker.
I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm not in the "convincing" business.
  • #171
  • May 30, 2014 5:56am May 30, 2014 5:56am
Thank you for sharing the experience with us. So basically:
1. Price and simple, clear charts is all we need.
2. You can bin all the reports about stops, option barriers etc.
3. Order flow is bs, mainly because it comes from your broker and got nothing to do with the market.

I also saw a question about trading big bucks for banks and willing to work for them, let me tell you my opinion.
If you can average 2%/5% a month for 5 years on a standard account it simply mean you can be a trader and such a track record and capital you have gained during those 5 years would be more than enough to start your own fund and seek OPM to manage.
Bottom line, you don't need to work for a bank to trade big, however I am sure from the experience point of view it would be very nice.
Finally a thread where all half truths about trading are truly explained
swing it!
  • #172
  • May 30, 2014 6:43am May 30, 2014 6:43am
Quoting spieler
well i was myself very contrarian when playing the market on a short time frame and it paid huge rewards . Being contrarian is an art difficult to master. Here i am talking of a different kind of thing. First i am talking large time frame and you can only be contrarian on those time frame if you are looking for 10/20 pips and try to catch small inflexion points on the market against the trend . I dont think it worth the energy spent in the long term. And i am contrarian as i am taking the opposite position of the retailers my goal is to catch...
Hi Spieler , nice to see you back to FF
Did you stopped trading EURCHF as you taught in your older thread (here) after SNB intervention ?
Btw i was thinking at your latest *indicator* , wouldn't have much more significance to use for example Oanda long/short position since i guess there are much more active traders than what shown at FF ? Oanda stats are here : http://fxtrade.oanda.com/lang/it/ana...osition-ratios

Regards,
Skyline
  • #173
  • May 30, 2014 7:53pm May 30, 2014 7:53pm
Quoting No-Luck
When the SNB intervened the EURCHF made a huge jump. What happened to the dealers, did they got any relevant information before that event or were they also caught on the wrong side? And how did they trade when the SNB put a peg at 1.20 ?
Actually it makes it easy to trade. Buy near 1.20, 1.21. Sell when it gets near 1.24 or 1.25. How much easier can it get???
  • #174
  • Edited 8:46pm May 31, 2014 7:33pm | Edited 8:46pm
Quoting skenobi
{quote} This is what I do when I see other people's stops: I run them. When I run stops, I don't use stops on those runs, because my targets are usually less than say 20 pips for a short term kill. Some guys go for more, I guess I'm not that greedy. I do use mental stops however in case my runs go sour. That takes discipline which the Banks pay me big bucks for. When I run stops, trend direction is always at the back of my mind, but not a factor because, as I've implied, my targets are very short term. I don't use technical tools other than my...
Skenobi and others valuable institutional traders.....thank you very much for a very valuable information....can you please tell me what would attract your attention to run the stops within 20 pips...would 40, 50, 100 standard lots EURJPY pending entries/stops at certain price level be enough for you to run it?

Second question is, if trade is done through the standard retail dealing desk broker, like Alpari, Oanda, FXCM...do you think, if they see your pending positions and it is 40 - 50 lots , would they more likely to run the stops, increase spreads to fill them as oppose to non dealing "ECN" brokers, like IB, MB Trading, FinFx, etc...?
  • #175
  • Jun 1, 2014 12:43am Jun 1, 2014 12:43am
Quoting driven18
{quote} Skenobi and others valuable institutional traders.....thank you very much for a very valuable information....can you please tell me what would attract your attention to run the stops within 20 pips...would 40, 50, 100 standard lots EURJPY pending entries/stops at certain price level be enough for you to run it? Second question is, if trade is done through the standard retail dealing desk broker, like Alpari, Oanda, FXCM...do you think, if they see your pending positions and it is 40 - 50 lots , would they more likely to run the stops, increase...
In case you have not yet found the answer when you re-read the thread, institutional traders do not target retailers. It is not worth the trouble. If it just so happens that your stop is near the stop of a big fish, then it is purely coincidental that you got taken out. 200 dollars is not important enuf to manipulate a market.

I would think institutional traders would be much interested in squeezing an LTCM than driven18. If you do not know the story of LTCM it is a good read, or you can watch when genius failed.
If you are good at something, never do it for free--Joker
  • #176
  • Jun 1, 2014 1:46am Jun 1, 2014 1:46am
jmn5611, the question was not directed to you and ..please pay attention and read carefully...I am not talking about $200 dollars...I am talking 50 -100 standard lots...
  • #177
  • Jun 1, 2014 6:50am Jun 1, 2014 6:50am
If I were to run a stop i have to take into account several things.

1) How big is the order? When you say lots i'm not sure what that equates to in millions Of USD or base currency.

2) How far away is the stop?

3) Would I be on the side of the current market trend?

4) How illiquid or liquid is the market at that time?

If I'm the say EurUsd dealer and there is a stop for 2 million at 1.3597 and the market is 30 pips higher I won't even attempt to run that stop. I probably wouldn't even try to run that stop if it was for 100 million eur's (you don't usually see those size stops anyway because customers know they are magnets for stop running). The dealer wouls most likely have to sell much more than 100 million eur's to get it near that stop. If it was 5 pips away and the market was heading in that direction then I could see trying to get that stop done. It's much easier to run stops in illiquid volatile ccy pairs. I had a friend who made a living off ZAR and MXN stops. You could move those ccy's a big figure in a hurry with around 20 bux.
I guess the real answer is it depends, and the lesson I learned from all this is I make sure my stops are away from (but in the general are of) support and resistance. I give myself enough room at those levels because I know thats where orders are clustered and I don't want to get caught up in all that noise.
Finally, I believe most banks have a dealer dedicated to e-commerce or retail business and that person is usually a junior who know nothing. The senior dealers probably have no clue what kind of size is on the retail platform. SO if your stop gets trigger I wouldn't take it personally it was just as Skenobi said "its collateral damage" . Try and give yourelf more room around the obvious s/r levels. For example, dont put stops 10 pips or less on either side of the big figure they usually get triggered.
  • #178
  • Jun 1, 2014 6:53am Jun 1, 2014 6:53am
The guy in the video here:
Inserted Video
is saying that 90% of what institutional traders do is market making; sitting and watching orders being executed. Has this been the case, in your experience?
  • #179
  • Jun 1, 2014 7:09am Jun 1, 2014 7:09am
Quoting Ponzi Jr
{quote} The guy in the video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SK0FJfkWzyY is saying that 90% of what institutional traders do is market making; sitting and watching orders being executed. Has this been the case, in your experience?
I think back in the day you may be able to say that because there wasn't the transparency through technology that you have today. The spreads are much tighter now because of that transparency so the amount of money you can make just on customer flow has been greatly diminished. Since I have been in the business that situation only became worse. So if you were to just make market 90% of the time then you probably wouldn't have made your budget and you would have ben fired. Yes, we were all market makers, BUT we also all put on discretionery trades. We had to in order to make budgets and most of us enjoyed putting on prop trades, wewere traders afterall. Over the course of my career the amount of money I made from prop trading as a percentage of my overall trading bugdet got to as high as 70%. My friends who are still in the business confirm this still, making markets is now becoming a hurdle to overcome as a opposed to a revenue source.
  • #180
  • Jun 1, 2014 7:16am Jun 1, 2014 7:16am
Quoting Ponzi Jr
{quote} The guy in the video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SK0FJfkWzyY is saying that 90% of what institutional traders do is market making; sitting and watching orders being executed. Has this been the case, in your experience?
Does this guy actually charge people to listen to him..I'm in the wrong business
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