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Auction Market Theory and Market Profile

  • #5,681
  • May 10, 2014 3:31pm May 10, 2014 3:31pm
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So yes, for Auction Market Value Theroy & Analysis, the use of volume is irrelevant. All you use is TPO’s………………..

IF there is no volume, your TPO-chart is useless AHAHAHAHAH

It's just incredible. Infinitus, please if you read me, could you explain why TPO (time) should mean the same that volume. I can't to do it with my English's skill.
  • #5,682
  • May 10, 2014 3:39pm May 10, 2014 3:39pm
There is a huge difference between Volume and Volume's data.

You should always consider your TPO with a Volume's point of view.

If you have poor's volume session, your TPOs printed on your chart mean nothing. That's exactly what I'm explaining from the begining.
  • #5,683
  • May 10, 2014 4:11pm May 10, 2014 4:11pm
Quoting Beyondprice
{quote} It's explained in this video : http://www.tradingetanalyse.com/publ...me-Profile.cfm and here again : ""Volume Strips" were called "Laser Lines" in Steidlmayer's book that was referenced above. I coined the term "High Volume Node" years ago and that is basically what "Volume Strips" are - areas of relatively high volume on the horizontal scale." Tom Alexander explains it's the same. You're wrong as I said. {quote} THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING FROM THE BEGINING...
If you actually read what Don Jones writes, that page you posted, is written in context of trading the CME. Read the book in its entirety....
You need to actually read how it applies to FX:
Don Jones Cisco-Futures also says this"

Problems with Market Profile and their Resolution
The author's background in money management (1972 - 1988) generated a real appreciation for any method like Market Profile that could open up intra-day market anlaysis. But there were serious problems.

The first hitch came with the definition of Market Profile value. Value area is the price range defined by the central seventy percent of a day's (cleared) volume. In order to find value, we needed the volume: this was only available for CBOT markets (LDB data). We traded a portfolio of 24 futures, only a fraction of which were CBOT. I discussed the problem with an owner of the Market Logic School (an early source of training on Market Profile) and was assured that indeed, value could come only from volume.

Nevertheless, we explored other avenues. By 1987 we had developed the Tick-TPO, or Meta-Profile methodology which proved valid for value determination in all auction markets.

Meta-Profile removed our dependence on CBOT LDB data*** and also became the industry de-facto standard for day value. Meta-Profile is reported in the subsequent 1991 Market Profile manual, (Ref 4, P33 "Steidlmayer says....") and in Mind Over Markets 1990, also without attribution. The examples of Market Profile we have seen from the wire services all use value area found from TPO's, not cleared volume.”

http://www.ciscofutures.com/value_analytics.html

removed our dependence on CBOT LDB data*** That's Volume Data
From Steildlymayer to Jones they ALL USE TPO's not a "volume @ price" histogram or charts.
Markets are not efficient, rather they are effective - Jones
  • #5,684
  • May 10, 2014 4:44pm May 10, 2014 4:44pm
Quote
removed our dependence on CBOT LDB data*** That's Volume Data
From Steildlymayer to Jones they ALL USE TPO's not a "volume @ price" histogram or charts.


WTF?

WHY ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT "Volume at Price"?

Some traders use TPO, others prefer Volume at price but WHY are you talking about it?

You SAID that Volume is IRRELEVANT. Not Volume at PRICE is IRRELEVANT.

Your boyfriend Jer21, I quote, said "
Quote
Because "HVN&LVN nodes" has nothing to do with auction process its a totally different subject

As I wrote before
Quote
There is a huge difference between Volume and Volume's data.

I'm not talking about Volume at price, not at all. I don't care. It's the same because Time = Volume. If it's not, so there is a problem like on FX. Because when price stays long time on a PRICE, It should mean that there is a lot of volume, bcs high liquidit.

BUT on FX it's not always the case because of poor trading session. How could you fix it? You can use Volume Profile because even if volume's data isn't perfect, you can work with it. Or you can just draw your TPO profile without the poor trading session. Not my business, do what you want.


You can use volume profile or TPO profile, it's almost the same thing like Cisco explains. You even can use the both.


NO THE REAL PROBLEM HERE :

It's that Senior-member who want to be a GURU and says a lot of bullshit. You say that Volume is irrelevant. It means that you are profiling market for several months, maybe years, without understanding that TPO is a volume's proxy.

Don Jones, Steidlmayer, Tom Alexander, they are talking about volume all the time as I showed you but you say that Volume is irrelevant.

You don't understand what is value because you can only define the value by the volume. If you don't have volume's data, THEN USE TPO IN ORDER TO DEFINE THE VOLUME.

That's funny because you trade market by using TPO without knowing what you are doing.

Please, do you understand what is a point of control? I'm not really sure. Because if you do understand POC is the price of equilibrium, so the highest volume price, how can u say that volume is irrelevant?
  • #5,685
  • May 10, 2014 4:47pm May 10, 2014 4:47pm
Quote
You need to actually read how it applies to FX:
Don Jones Cisco-Futures also says this



Shiiiiiitttttt

That's not the point. We are not talking about VOLUME's DATA. If you can't use proper volume's data, you need a proxy. OMG! That's why TPO exist....

If TPO is a volume's proxy, you are still using Volume to define value, so HOW CAN U SAY VOLUME IS IRRELEVANT?
  • #5,686
  • Edited 5:26pm May 10, 2014 5:11pm | Edited 5:26pm
Quoting Beyondprice
{quote} Shiiiiiitttttt That's not the point. We are not talking about VOLUME's DATA. If you can't use proper volume's data, you need a proxy. OMG! That's why TPO exist.... If TPO is a volume's proxy, you are still using Volume to define value, so HOW CAN U SAY VOLUME IS IRRELEVANT?

Because that's what a "Volume profile" is Volume at price histogram.
It's "HOW" you use the TPO's that makes it a proxy.
"How" is the "Auction Market Anaylsis", you fail to mentioned. You cant perform "Auction Market Value Analytics" without TPO's. If you read anything about it across the board, it uses TPO's for trading decisions...............

TPO's are frequency of PRICE & TIME.

In each 1\2 hour period all you need is 1 trade, to equal 1 tpo, it does matter is you have 1000 ticks at one price, it will always be counted as 1 TPO.
1 tick or 10,0000 ticks(tick volume) its still will equal 1 TPO.

To compare TPO's to tick volume, you cant. TPO are price*time, a "volume profile is "volume at price". Apples & Oranges

Its obvious you haven't read anything about the subject of AMVT, You use the word "volume, and are clueless as to the "Context" in which its used................
A "Volume profile" has nothing to do with AMVT
Markets are not efficient, rather they are effective - Jones
  • #5,687
  • May 10, 2014 5:35pm May 10, 2014 5:35pm
OMG, you still dont get'it.

I know that Volume at price is Volume profile. And as I said, a trader could use TPO or Volume profile or both of them because it's pretty the same like Cisco explains. I'm not talking about Volume profile or Volume at price, do what you want. I know professionnal's trader who don't use TPO. Not the subject.

Quote
TPO's are frequency of PRICE & TIME.

In each 1\2 hour period all you need is 1 trade, to equal 1 tpo, it does matter is you have 1000 ticks at one price, it will always be counted as 1 TPO.
1 tick or 10,0000 ticks(tick volume) its still equals 1 TPO.
​

:::::::::

WHAT DOES A POINT OF CONTROL MEAN? WHAT DOES THAT MEAN IN TERM OF VOLUME?


You say that Volume is irrelevant but you DONT understand that are you are trying to visualise where is the volume (acceptance) and where isn't (rejection, unfaire value).

THAT'S WHY TPO is a proxy ant that's why you are wrong when you're saying that volume is irrelevant.

WHY DO YOU NOT ANSWER AT THIS QUESTION :

Quote
Please, do you understand what is a point of control?
​


Are you afraid to answer it? Do you understand why do we use TPO as proxy's volume???????????

Quote
To compare TPO's to tick volume, you cant. TPO are price*time, a "volume profile is "volume at price". Apples & Oranges

OMG, it's THE SAME:

When Price doesn't move, it's means there is a lot of activity, so there is a LOT OF VOLUME that's why we are using TPO as a proxy's volume. Because you know where is the value or not without having volume's data. If volume is irrelevant, TPO is too because TPO tries to measure volume because
Quote
TIME = VOLUME

and because PRICE * VOLUME = VALUE, you can say that PRICE * TIME = VALUE. And that's why TPO IS proxy's volume. It's incredible that you don't understand it.


Same thing for jer21 who wrote that HVN and LVN are nothing do with AMT ahahahaha
  • #5,688
  • Edited 6:13pm May 10, 2014 5:38pm | Edited 6:13pm
Quote
It's "HOW" you use the TPO's that makes it a proxy.
7


08:10

AHAHAHA

You're amazing. ahah

Inserted Video
  • #5,689
  • May 10, 2014 5:52pm May 10, 2014 5:52pm
Quote
Volume Profile Next to
Quote
TPO Profile
Quote
It is hard to believe that these two Profiles are from the same market on the same day; the difference is combining time and volume. In the conventionally constructed Profile on the right, volume is estimated by multiplying price x time. The greater the number of TPOs reading from left to right, the higher the estimated volume. It isn’t perfect however, I believe it is superior to using a volume alone. The structure and anatomy of the conventional Market Profile reveal ‘suspect’ areas of trade...


Well, I say the same thing of Dalton.

Quote
Conclusion—
Quote
Make your own decisions after reviewing both side-by-side on your own platform; no matter what you decide there is never a single, simple answer. After you make your comparisons write down your observations. Both TPO and volume Profiles are helpful; they needn’t be pitted against one another. However, I give more emphasis to the TPO Profile because I believe that it provides a more accurate representation of the auction process by its inclusion of time in conjunction with volume. Additionally,...
[/font][/color]

What I wrote above :

Quote
You can use volume profile or TPO profile, it's almost the same thing like Cisco explains. You even can use the both.

Quote
​I'm not talking about Volume profile or Volume at price, do what you want. I know professionnal's trader who don't use TPO. Not the subject.

I'm saying the same the thing that Dalton.

In order to conclude,

Me : I' say that TPO about volume

Mzvega : Says that Volume is irrelevant.

Quote
However, I give more emphasis to the TPO Profile because I believe that it provides a more accurate representation of the auction process by its inclusion of time in conjunction with volume.


Remember :
Quote
......... volume is irrelevant


AHAHAHAHA
  • #5,690
  • May 10, 2014 6:02pm May 10, 2014 6:02pm
He's talking about TPO without knowing it's about volume. Problem is that Senior members like you block people when they don't agree with their opinion. . I'll create my own thread in a few months.


It'll be a real project where every people (even you) will be allowed to write what they think. Not about a Guru's-reputation, not about wrong idea on Volume or TPO.

You don't know anything about AMT. You don't understant that you have to know the value. And the value is where there is the greatest activity. The Highest volume price is the Value, the point of control.

I'm still waiting about :

Quote
WHAT DOES A POINT OF CONTROL MEAN? WHAT DOES THAT MEAN IN TERM OF VOLUME?
  • #5,691
  • May 10, 2014 6:13pm May 10, 2014 6:13pm
Don't listen wanna-be gurus like Mzvega who are saying that there is one way to understand and trade Auction Market Theory.

Just choose the one you want, Dalton says perfectly:

Quote
Conclusion—
Quote
Make your own decisions after reviewing both side-by-side on your own platform; no matter what you decide there is never a single, simple answer. After you make your comparisons write down your observations. Both TPO and volume Profiles are helpful; they needn’t be pitted against one another


You can see Volume Profile and TPO on my chart. I never said that TPO has to be cancel, never. I said that traders should understand that TPO is about volume in order to really understand that TPOs printed during poor trading session mean nothing from the AMT's perception.

But there is "Senior-member-guru" who thinks that know everything but it's not the case as you can see.

You know mzvega you remind my stupid ex-girlfriend. It's a waste of time. I show you what Pro-traders are saying. You write volume is irrelevant : THEY ONLY TALK ABOUT VOLUME.

You say that I USE TPO as Volume's proxy. I SHOW YOU Alexander's video who is saying that TPO's volume's proxy.

You say that Volume at price isnt AMT, Dalton says that you can exactly know where is the value.

I'm still right, you're still wrong. What's next?
  • #5,692
  • Edited 6:42pm May 10, 2014 6:31pm | Edited 6:42pm
Quoting Beyondprice
Don't listen wanna-be gurus like Mzvega who are saying that there is one way to understand and trade Auction Market Theory. Just choose the one you want, Dalton says perfectly: {quote}{quote} You can see Volume Profile and TPO on my chart. I never said that TPO has to be cancel, never. I said that traders should understand that TPO is about volume in order to really understand that TPOs printed during poor trading session mean nothing from the AMT's perception. But there is "Senior-member-guru" who thinks that know everything but it's not the case...
In the context in which it was originally posted....................

"Conclusion—Make your own decisions after reviewing both side-by-side on your own platform; no matter what you decide there is never a single, simple answer. After you make your comparisons write down your observations. Both TPO and volume Profiles are helpful; they needn’t be pitted against one another. However, I give more emphasis to the TPO Profile because I believe that it provides a more accurate representation of the auction process by its inclusion of time in conjunction with volume. Additionally, it smooths some aberrations when there is high volume at the opening price and other static references such as the prior pit session high and low and the overnight high and low."

but before that he said:
"What the volume Profile does not show is far more important to the way I trade. I believe it is the more ambiguous combination of time and volume, rather than volume alone, which provides me with the best information. Clearly volume is important but so is time. A price that is not accepted over time is, in fact, rejected."


"Anomalies—An anomaly is a single price or price level that lacks symmetry, it is an unusual structural arrangement in the Market Profile; anomalies represent structural weakness. Anomalies are created through a combination of time and price; they may not show on volume Profiles. Volume Profiles alone are likely to identify many false anomalies, for example, the previous day’s high or low as discussed earlier."
http://www.jdaltontrading.com/tpo-ve...lume-profiles/

He also only trades volume based markets, when in Rome, do as the Romans do, when in FX you use what is applicable....... TPO's not Tick volume
Markets are not efficient, rather they are effective - Jones
  • #5,693
  • May 10, 2014 6:42pm May 10, 2014 6:42pm
Quote
He also only trades volume based markets, when in Rome, do as the Romans do, when in FX you use what is applicable.......

No, I have better idea.

You do what it does work for you and that's all.

You said that volume was irrelevant. I made my point, you were wong.


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Attached Image



Not bad for Volume's broker data.
  • #5,694
  • May 10, 2014 6:47pm May 10, 2014 6:47pm
Quote
but before that he said:
Quote
"What the volume Profile does not show is far more important to the way I trade. I believe it is the more ambiguous combination of time and volume, rather than volume alone, which provides me with the best information. Clearly volume is important but so is time. A price that is not accepted over time is, in fact, rejected."


"Anomalies—An anomaly is a single price or price level that lacks symmetry, it is an unusual structural arrangement in the Market Profile;...


What are you doing?

He explains in which case Volume profile is better and in wich case is not. Same about TPO. Then he said that YOU have to make your choice. I always say that too. Besides, I'm using both. He prefers to use TPO. No problem! I know traders who TPO or VO or both of them.

Your mistake was saying that 1) Volume is irrelevant and that 2) TPO isn't a proxy 3) Volume profile is not AMT

1) Dalton explains that TPO is about volume
2) Alexanders explains TPO is a proxy.
3) Dalton explains that you only could get the more accurate value with VP.

Dalton likes time like a regulator, so that's why TPO means to him. But some traders don't use Time like that. Just an exemple. Keep open mind.

That's all I wanted to say. I don't care if a trader uses volume profile or TPO profile or both of them if he's making money. I say the same that Dalton.
  • #5,695
  • May 10, 2014 6:55pm May 10, 2014 6:55pm
But you are right when you're saying that we can't have real volumes on FX. You're right and I say the same thing.

BUT there is solution :

If you have a volume's broker data of quality, it could work. I know that because I'm using it. I'm not saying it's perfect but It's better than nothing. Like using Market Profile on MT4 : its not perfect at all, not at all but you can do your job quiet well and it's the most important.
  • #5,696
  • May 10, 2014 8:23pm May 10, 2014 8:23pm
Quoting Beyondprice
{quote}{quote} What are you doing? He explains in which case Volume profile is better and in wich case is not. Same about TPO. Then he said that YOU have to make your choice. I always say that too. Besides, I'm using both. He prefers to use TPO. No problem! I know traders who TPO or VO or both of them. Your mistake was saying that 1) Volume is irrelevant and that 2) TPO isn't a proxy 3) Volume profile is not AMT 1) Dalton explains that TPO is about volume 2) Alexanders explains TPO is a proxy. 3) Dalton explains that you only could the more accurate...

Unless you've actually read any of the books about "auction Market value analysis, in its actual entirety, you'll never understand the "context" of "how" volume is used.

You're right you win.............................

AMVT Analysis as per CISCO
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: cisco 2.JPG Size: 298 KB
Markets are not efficient, rather they are effective - Jones
  • #5,697
  • May 10, 2014 10:21pm May 10, 2014 10:21pm
Unless you've actually read any of the books about "auction Market value analysis, in its actual entirety, you'll never understand the "context" of "how" volume is used.
-----------


Cute.

Stop saying bullshit. There is no context or "how". We use volume to know the value. I'm still waiting your answer about POC by the way.

A highest volume price is a price where price stays because of the auction process. The opposite a poor-volume price and price squeezes the level.

So as I said you were wrong. You said Volume is irrevelant. You learn something today : Market Profile is looking for Value : It means that's all about Volume. Then choose Volume at Price or TPO, but the goal is the same : know where is the value and where is not.

It's funny cuz at first, it was :

"Volume is irrelevant"

and now it's :

"Context and How" ahahahah



"AMVT Analysis as per CISCO"

Where is the analysis?
  • #5,698
  • May 10, 2014 10:25pm May 10, 2014 10:25pm
@ BeyondPrice....

How is volume relevant in a market that has no volume? FX spot has no volume. Are you guys measuring tick movement? If so how does that correlate to the amount of money flowing to and from a particular price point?

@ Ms Vega

How do you measure the amount of time that price stays at a certain point? I get what you are saying, but how do you measure that in any meaningful way?
If you are good at something, never do it for free--Joker
  • #5,699
  • May 10, 2014 10:38pm May 10, 2014 10:38pm
How is volume relevant in a market that has no volume? FX spot has no volume. Are you guys measuring tick movement? If so how does that correlate to the amount of money flowing to and from a particular price point?
-------------------------------------------


No volume?

If there is no volume, It means there is no transaction. You're making a confusion between Volume and Volume's data.

Volume's data is provided by your broker...and It's work pretty well! (depends on the broker)
  • #5,700
  • May 10, 2014 10:42pm May 10, 2014 10:42pm
How is volume relevant in a market that has no volume? FX spot has no volume
------------------------------------------


Just one sec...

If FX spot has no volume, why would u use a POC?

Do you understand what does POC mean? It's an important question if you want to understand what you are doing when you're profiling.

MZvega, still waiting your answer.
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