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How banks push price against you?

  • #21
  • Jan 12, 2014 6:16am Jan 12, 2014 6:16am
Quoting Yuri57
How many of you think the market is a place of abundance ...
It is if you know what you are doing ... It seems that you don't ... That's clear in fact as you are rejecting your losses fault to someone else.
MT4/MT5 EAs/Indicators/Alerts coder
  • #22
  • Jan 12, 2014 6:18am Jan 12, 2014 6:18am
The question is not :"How banks push price against you?" but how you can use it on your favor?
  • #23
  • Jan 12, 2014 6:28am Jan 12, 2014 6:28am
Quoting Yuri57
Call me nuts but this is what really happens: FX dealers have ALL your information, regarding average position size, price entry and SL levels. This information is given to the liquidity providers (Deutsche Bank, JPM and so on) and they can easily push the price until you all get stopped out. If you have traded FX for some years I don't think this information is too surprising for you. Price goes in the direction where it can cause maximal pain. (Let me add, this is not true for all the markets for eg. bond market but FX because here are the most...
Firstly, having had a lot of experience at top 10 banks for FX I feel I can add something to this discussion.

Brokers Do not send some super excel file over to banks with every traders positions etc.

Banks do not, nor will they ever, care about your trades. Even when you sum all of the retail positions, they still don't care.

I would argue bond markets are more mainupulated than the FX markets but that is another discussion.

An individual bank cannot move the market more than about 0.1% for the majors (EURUSD, USDJPY etc).

Due to the nature of recent dodd-frank rules, banks also make most of their money short term and can't easily hold long term positions for regulatory reasons.
  • #24
  • Jan 12, 2014 6:38am Jan 12, 2014 6:38am
What kind of role you had in those top10 banks?

Please go on about manipulations of the bond market.

What do you mean banks cannot hold postions long term? They can keep any form of currency they want.
Yeah?! Well.. you know, that's just like.. your opinion man! - Big Lebowski
  • #25
  • Jan 12, 2014 6:53am Jan 12, 2014 6:53am
Well - that statement implies that only the retail traders loose money on the FX market and nobody else.

I think the statement is just over-reaction to personal losses. Otherwise - how to explain the list below:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_trading_losses

Retailers loose, because they have improper mindset of "equality", "fair game", "lottery", "one-in-a-million" etc...That is the loser's mindset of a working class average guy - always avoiding risks, always unsecured, always try to "save" instead of "make". To succeed in FX one must think as the big ones think.

And yes - why do you ever think FX must be a fair game field? Is the business a fair game? Is the external country policies a fair game? In my opinion this is a "victim" type of thinking - that serves only the idea that one is not suitable for that game.
  • #26
  • Jan 12, 2014 6:57am Jan 12, 2014 6:57am
You keep talking about mindset while we are discussing facts. You don't see market manipulation as a fact because you don't know how it's done. It has nothing to do with mindset.

Of course it is not a fair market, who says it should be?
Yeah?! Well.. you know, that's just like.. your opinion man! - Big Lebowski
  • #27
  • Jan 12, 2014 6:58am Jan 12, 2014 6:58am
Quoting techfan1128
ALL markets are manipulated by market makers. They don't need all the information you are referring to to take stops... In day trading, you can look at a short term chart and see where all the "small fish" (US) have their stops, and you can see when the big money starts to trigger the stops what happens. Take a look at the screen shot... Big Money wins... retailers lose! The good news is, if we understand what they are doing, we can trade with them... I know thats what I try to do! {image}
This is a perfect example of "it's not the market/broker/bank, it's the trader". Not all extended support zones are meant to be traded. It's the difference between a trade set up and a trade...big difference. Those bankers sat on that support zone for about 2 hours thinking about their next move, showing a lot of volatility in the process. In my eyes, it showed they were having a bit of a gang fight at that level. I'm sure there are retail traders who want to jump into this sort of PA, and others who will step aside and wait for the winner to emerge. Just looking at your chart, this is a nice example of support becoming resistance, and once that happens, your small loss on the buy can be easily turned into profit by flipping the trade once the down move proved itself. I don't see any signs of manipulation, and instead see the market speaking pretty clearly to everyone.
  • #28
  • Jan 12, 2014 7:01am Jan 12, 2014 7:01am
Quoting Yuri57
You keep talking about mindset while we are discussing facts. You don't see market manipulation as a fact because you don't know how it's done. It has nothing to do with mindset. Of course it is not a fair market, who says it should be?
So - who cares if the markets are manipulated if one's can gain profits?!
  • #29
  • Jan 12, 2014 7:03am Jan 12, 2014 7:03am
Rewerse your trades and put your T/P Where otters put there S/L

Problem solved...
  • #30
  • Jan 12, 2014 7:05am Jan 12, 2014 7:05am
Quoting GEfx
{quote}I don't see any signs of manipulation, and instead see the market speaking pretty clearly to everyone.
The problem is that most of the "everyone" can't read the price accurately. That's why they reject the fault to the others instead of concentrate of their own trading.
MT4/MT5 EAs/Indicators/Alerts coder
  • #31
  • Jan 12, 2014 7:07am Jan 12, 2014 7:07am
Quoting fxdk
Rewerse your trades and put your T/P Where otters put there S/L Problem solved...
The idea would be to virtualy enter ... then wait the virtual SL to be reached and enter there ... at a better price.
MT4/MT5 EAs/Indicators/Alerts coder
  • #32
  • Jan 12, 2014 7:16am Jan 12, 2014 7:16am
Quoting Yuri57
What kind of role you had in those top10 banks? Please go on about manipulations of the bond market. What do you mean banks cannot hold postions long term? They can keep any form of currency they want.
worked on a G10 spot FX desk as well as EM options.

re: bond markets, consider the Fed who own 30% of 10Y equivs, and willing to continue buying. That is manipulation of rates.

re: long term trading, when there were prop desks they could take levered positions for the long term in order for capital gains where as they aren't allowed to do that as much anymore. The most they can do is profit by being a market maker. The treasury section of a bank can hold reserves in various currencies to profit, but that isn't substantial.
  • #33
  • Jan 12, 2014 7:35am Jan 12, 2014 7:35am
Quoting FerruFx
{quote} The problem is that most of the "everyone" can't read the price accurately. That's why they reject the fault to the others instead of concentrate of their own trading.
I agree. Instead of saying "everyone", I should have said "anyone who is paying attention".
  • #34
  • Jan 12, 2014 7:36am Jan 12, 2014 7:36am
Quoting Yuri57
How many of you think the market is a place of abundance and actually make money daytrading? /Trendfollowing is completly different on weekly charts/
Yuri,
you are right to some degree. They cant see all your information and know exactly where YOUR stop is, but big money does use the all the retails to generate liquidity. Thats why you see big pops in the market, because there was an accumulation of stops in certain areas. With that being said, to those who are saying that this is an excuse for losing, its not because we are all responsible when we enter the market. Once we are in, its our responsibility from that point forward to manage our trade properly and accept whatever happens.

For those of yo who dont believe that at least to some degree that the markets arent manipulated, you are fooling yourselves. The markets (all of them) are manipulated all day... Ever heard of a fake out breakout? Why do these happen? Because on a technical basis 100,000's of orders are sitting in an area waiting for a break out. Big money will spike that area and all the buys will be taken in, they will then take it down and take all the stops because when 1000's of us are in a buy and our stops are in, in effect we are all now selling, and it drives the market down.

If you do some research on the markets, you will see that they are all manipulated. Once again, not an excuse for losing, but rather an opportunity to be really successful if you can see when and where this stuff is happening. When it does happen, a big move is coming!
  • #35
  • Jan 12, 2014 7:48am Jan 12, 2014 7:48am
Quoting Yuri57
You don't see market manipulation as a fact because you don't know how it's done.
Surely!

But wait...

You don't [and can't] know it either. If otherwise, represent data on banks opening orders with a goal of getting retailers' stops and every single one of them being hit as you stated in the first post.

Unless then - it's not a fact but your delusion to which you stick so desperately only cause if burst you'll have nothing left to justify your lack of capability to trade successfully and will have to admit you're a lousy trader and actually need to do something more than just talking shit.
The single most important factor is having control of your own life.
  • #36
  • Jan 12, 2014 7:50am Jan 12, 2014 7:50am
Quoting techfan1128
{quote} Yuri, you are right to some degree. They cant see all your information and know exactly where YOUR stop is, but big money does use the all the retails to generate liquidity. Thats why you see big pops in the market, because there was an accumulation of stops in certain areas. With that being said, to those who are saying that this is an excuse for losing, its not because we are all responsible when we enter the market. Once we are in, its our responsibility from that point forward to manage our trade properly and accept whatever happens....
Yes, the forex is manipulated, which makes it very tradable. As for the fake out break out, there is another narrative to go along with that. It is a banker saying to the market, "lets make this move", and the market saying, "no, let's not". That is much like the chart I commented on earlier. The breakout is a trade set up, not a trade. It's the follow though (a continuation of the break out, or a rejection of the break out) that presents the trade, after the move has proven itself. The market is not against you, unless you don't understand the market, and in the final analysis, its the trader who puts themselves into that situation.
  • #37
  • Jan 12, 2014 7:56am Jan 12, 2014 7:56am
Quoting GEfx
{quote} Yes, the forex is manipulated, which makes it very tradable. As for the fake out break out, there is another narrative to go along with that. It is a banker saying to the market, "lets make this move", and the market saying, "no, let's not". That is much like the chart I commented on earlier. The breakout is a trade set up, not a trade. It's the follow though (a continuation of the break out, or a rejection of the break out) that presents the trade, after the move has proven itself. The market is not against you, unless you don't understand...
I agree, the market is not against anyone... it is manipulated by big money to draw orders in going one direction with the intention of going the other... I love that this happens because now that I understand it, I can see it and trade with it! Go back and look at a 5 min chart over time and see if you can see consistent TIME windows where the market spikes one direction an goes the other. Big money does certain things at certain times very consistently... its manipulated, and we can profit from it... so im good with it!
  • #38
  • Jan 12, 2014 8:03am Jan 12, 2014 8:03am
Quoting techfan1128
{quote} I agree, the market is not against anyone...Big money does certain things at certain times very consistently... its manipulated, and we can profit from it... so im good with it!
I agree with this.
  • #39
  • Jan 12, 2014 8:05am Jan 12, 2014 8:05am
Quoting michaelpelly
{quote} So - who cares if the markets are manipulated if one's can gain profits?!
The approach changes?! :-)
Yeah?! Well.. you know, that's just like.. your opinion man! - Big Lebowski
  • #40
  • Jan 12, 2014 8:12am Jan 12, 2014 8:12am
Quoting techfan1128
if you can see consistent TIME windows where the market spikes one direction an goes the other. Big money does certain things at certain times very consistently...
At last we are talking about the manipulation itself. Forget the excuses this topic is not about that.

Please share your experience with such "time windows" if you may.

Thanks.
Yeah?! Well.. you know, that's just like.. your opinion man! - Big Lebowski
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