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Trading Without a StopLoss

  • #1,081
  • Nov 24, 2013 4:42pm Nov 24, 2013 4:42pm
Quoting Jexter
So Joe. You're saying buying at 10 and setting a SL at 5 is pretty much buying high from the banks (at 10) and selling low to the banks (at 5). Let's say my TP is at 20. If the banks are out to get me, how come they allow me to hit my TP? How come the big bad super-savvy banks sell low to lil' me (at 10) and buy high from lil' me (at 20)? Why don't they want my moolah? Does it stink? Or do banks belong to the 99.9% as well? Oh and... {image}
The example I gave is just a simple one so that all the high schoolers can understand without asking too much questions.

Since you are not the only one the bank is dealing with, maybe someone else is giving the bank a better deal. So the bank goes after them and let you have a few pips. They know they will have your money soon enough. It's quite obvious because they can tell you are someone who likes to guarantee buying high and selling low.
  • #1,082
  • Nov 24, 2013 4:47pm Nov 24, 2013 4:47pm
Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote} The example I gave is just a simple one so that all the high schoolers can understand without asking too much questions. Since you are not the only one the bank is dealing with, maybe someone else is giving the bank a better deal. So the bank goes after them and let you have a few pips. They know they will have your money soon enough. It's quite obvious because they can tell you are someone who likes to guarantee buying high and selling low.

Sorry, this high-schooler still doesn't get it. Surely the banks have enough financial surface to come after the other guy AND me AND all of us 99.9% at the same time. Banks don't give out free passes. They are so mean, man. I must just be extremely lucky.
  • #1,083
  • Nov 24, 2013 4:50pm Nov 24, 2013 4:50pm
Quoting Jexter
{quote} Sorry, this high-schooler still doesn't get it. Surely the banks have enough financial surface to come after the other guy AND me AND all of us 99.9% at the same time. Banks don't give out free passes. They are so mean, man. I must just be extremely lucky.
Well, if you keep the trade open, the pips will evaporate. Given my previous explanation, I think even a high schooler can work out why the pips disappear.
  • #1,084
  • Nov 24, 2013 5:06pm Nov 24, 2013 5:06pm
Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote} The example I gave is just a simple one so that all the high schoolers can understand without asking too much questions. Since you are not the only one the bank is dealing with, maybe someone else is giving the bank a better deal. So the bank goes after them and let you have a few pips. They know they will have your money soon enough. It's quite obvious because they can tell you are someone who likes to guarantee buying high and selling low.

okay maybe for once, pretend your talking to intelligent people here and give us a detailed example ??


The system is so hugely complicated, there is no way they can go after your SL personally, win or lose overall is down to the trader not if they use SL's or not.




Don't worry, the only source of new income into the markets for trading houses to take is retail traders money, millions of us losing small amount frequently sure do add up, but it's not a conspiracy merely most retail traders suck, get over it.
Nothing to it, but to do it!!! Stick to the plan FOOL!!!!
  • #1,085
  • Nov 24, 2013 5:45pm Nov 24, 2013 5:45pm
Quoting Turveyd
{quote} okay maybe for once, pretend your talking to intelligent people here and give us a detailed example ?? The system is so hugely complicated, there is no way they can go after your SL personally, win or lose overall is down to the trader not if they use SL's or not. Don't worry, the only source of new income into the markets for trading houses to take is retail traders money, millions of us losing small amount frequently sure do add up, but it's not a conspiracy merely most retail traders suck, get over it.
I know of no one who would not pick up money if they see it laying on the ground. Ok, maybe there are a few stupid ones who wouldn't. In your experience, are banks known to be stupid ? Most retail gamblers suck because they have been trained to hand over their money without a struggle. For the very few who struggled, you'd laugh at them and tell them how stupid they are for taking great risks with their money. If you want to get money out of the banks, enormous risks are involved. There is no way round it.
  • #1,086
  • Nov 24, 2013 6:03pm Nov 24, 2013 6:03pm
Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote} I know of no one who would not pick up money if they see it laying on the ground. Ok, maybe there are a few stupid ones who wouldn't. In your experience, are banks known to be stupid ? Most retail gamblers suck because they have been trained to hand over their money without a struggle. For the very few who struggled, you'd laugh at them and tell them how stupid they are for taking great risks with their money. If you want to get money out of the banks, enormous risks are involved. There is no way round it.

If it looked suspicious then I might avoid it, tis only money after all!!

Retail people suck, because they go on Forum's like FF and get taught " HOW TO TRADE " and they get fed loads of H4 candle stick, indicator this, bla bla bla BS, but it's not SL's if anything They'd ban SL's infact they'd ban closing a trade on the same day, they did with with trading US stocks 10+ years ago.

Why cause it was easy to make intraday money of trading stocks I was racking it in, then they stopped more than 3 round trips in a 5 day period ( sub 25K accounts ) and exposed us to gapping up and down before we could trade and just DOOMED!!

Enormous will never end well, moderate risks repeated many times is my prefered method then reduce the risk level as the account grows for sanity more than anything else.

Come on more info as to why you think you have the grail ??
Nothing to it, but to do it!!! Stick to the plan FOOL!!!!
  • #1,087
  • Nov 24, 2013 6:22pm Nov 24, 2013 6:22pm
Quoting Turveyd
{quote} If it looked suspicious then I might avoid it, tis only money after all!! Retail people suck, because they go on Forum's like FF and get taught " HOW TO TRADE " and they get fed loads of H4 candle stick, indicator this, bla bla bla BS, but it's not SL's if anything They'd ban SL's infact they'd ban closing a trade on the same day, they did with with trading US stocks 10+ years ago. Why cause it was easy to make intraday money of trading stocks I was racking it in, then they stopped more than 3 round trips in a 5 day period ( sub 25K accounts...
Not using SL is not going to help you. They know your entry price. To survive their assaults, you'd need a great deal more.

I never said I have the grail, or maybe I did, but half jokingly. If the banks are predictable in what they do, perhaps their predictability can be exploited.
  • #1,088
  • Nov 24, 2013 6:34pm Nov 24, 2013 6:34pm
Today, a 2013 TV set sells for $1,000. 3 months down the road it will sell for $900. 6 month down the road for $800.

If you do not sell it for today's low, you will sell it only lower and lower later. No one will give you $1,100 for it ever. No high for you in the same marketplace. You better to move fast or accept a small loss. Otherwise, you are guaranteed less money for your TV.

Currency valuations are more complex and there are no model years, but the general principle is the same.

If you have rampant inflation you may fetch a greater number for it only due to inflation rate outdoing depreciation rate. If there is sudden deficit of TV you may indeed sell higher, but it would be a disruption upon which you cannot really build TV trading business in normal circumstances.

Most of TV trading profits are made by selling in a different marketplace.
  • #1,089
  • Nov 24, 2013 6:38pm Nov 24, 2013 6:38pm
Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote} I know of no one who would not pick up money if they see it laying on the ground. Ok, maybe there are a few stupid ones who wouldn't. In your experience, are banks known to be stupid ? Most retail gamblers suck because they have been trained to hand over their money without a struggle. For the very few who struggled, you'd laugh at them and tell them how stupid they are for taking great risks with their money. If you want to get money out of the banks, enormous risks are involved. There is no way round it.

I don't know about enormous risk being needed to extract capital from the difference in exchange rates. You would be quite surprised what risking only 1.2 percent of your account can get if you have the correct strategy.
If you are good at something, never do it for free--Joker
  • #1,090
  • Nov 24, 2013 6:42pm Nov 24, 2013 6:42pm
Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote} Not using SL is not going to help you. They know your entry price. To survive their assaults, you'd need a great deal more. I never said I have the grail, or maybe I did, but half jokingly. If the banks are predictable in what they do, perhaps their predictability can be exploited.
Food for thought, Joe.
Just adopt some kind of method other than "trading without a stop is my method".

It seems that trading without a stop is your only real idea and that you believe anything
else is gambling.

Has it ever occurred to you that trading without some kind of stop is even more gambling?
'eh. probably not

I can say, that from my past experience, attempting to trade without some kind of SL can
prove costly.
Of course, if you trade for 5 or 10 pips maybe you can make it work. For a few months or so.

Food for thought on adopting a method.

http://www.forexfactory.com/showthre...79#post7110779

All the best, Joe
And for US residents; Happy (upcoming) T-Day
When the Joker is in the deck.. fear not and play it well
  • #1,091
  • Nov 24, 2013 6:43pm Nov 24, 2013 6:43pm
Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote} Not using SL is not going to help you. They know your entry price. To survive their assaults, you'd need a great deal more. I never said I have the grail, or maybe I did, but half jokingly. If the banks are predictable in what they do, perhaps their predictability can be exploited.
Won't help me, I'm trading off a method, where I know market is going up, but it's dropped but not enough to invalidate the uptrend so I take a long, if it drops say 20pips more then odds are it'll keep dropping, be stupid for me not to have a SL at that point.

I'm exploiting market momentum and range / noise which they create, so there are things you can exploit thankfully.


Nearly gave up looking a few times, at times I had just nothing I could see to crack this, so I get it why you've gone for a no SL, manage the losses and keep taking profits method.
Nothing to it, but to do it!!! Stick to the plan FOOL!!!!
  • #1,092
  • Nov 24, 2013 6:52pm Nov 24, 2013 6:52pm
Quoting jmn5611
{quote} I don't know about enormous risk being needed to extract capital from the difference in exchange rates. You would be quite surprised what risking only 1.2 percent of your account can get if you have the correct strategy.
Well if the risk wasn't enormous, you'd be trading 120% . Obviously you can reduce the impact of the enormous risk by going small.
  • #1,093
  • Nov 24, 2013 6:57pm Nov 24, 2013 6:57pm
Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote} Well if the risk wasn't enormous, you'd be trading 120% . Obviously you can reduce the impact of the enormous risk by going small.

Obviously your trading very small, a level where trading which go against you need to go a long way to wipe you out and accumulate many of them.

Downside to that is, trades which go your way need to go a long way to make much money.


I see this being a months of continual small profit, all looking great, then a couple of bad trades will wipe out the gains pretty quickly, and while you wait for them to come back others will do the same, so on and so forth.


Come on, honestly, how long have you been trading this way ?? what's your profit / loss situation ?? how many are you holding at a loss and what's the value of those losses currently ??

To be fair, you'd of likely lost your entire account already if you where trading with SL's so maybe your better off this way, but better off still might not be getting anywhere sadly.
Nothing to it, but to do it!!! Stick to the plan FOOL!!!!
  • #1,094
  • Nov 24, 2013 7:01pm Nov 24, 2013 7:01pm
Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote} Well if the risk wasn't enormous, you'd be trading 120% . Obviously you can reduce the impact of the enormous risk by going small.
Going small in my mind is a matter of being able to emulate what the banks do. No one knows what the market is going to do. Even central bank interventions are only temporary in nature. The market will ultimately decide what the fair exchange value of a pair is. I go so small because if I buy the very top or sell the very bottom, I can do something about it beside pay the bank for being wrong in the way of a stop loss.

I have bought the top and sold the bottom of moves enough to know that one needs a plan B.
If you are good at something, never do it for free--Joker
  • #1,095
  • Nov 24, 2013 7:01pm Nov 24, 2013 7:01pm
Quoting Turveyd
{quote} f it drops say 20pips more then odds are it'll keep dropping, be stupid for me not to have a SL at that point.
I mentioned exactly the same 30 pages ago. There is no point in arguing with BJ. Let him trade whatever way it works for him.

He admitted using some sort of hard SL. He keeps the rule in his head because he has no confidence in his broker.

All the balancing and offsets he talks about can be viewed as a shift between exposure to market and a fancy SL / going flat.
  • #1,096
  • Nov 24, 2013 7:02pm Nov 24, 2013 7:02pm
Quoting Turveyd
{quote} so I get it why you've gone for a no SL, manage the losses and keep taking profits method.
With all due respect, BJ will end up "managing" losses of 100's, perhaps thousands of pips, while taking
a few profits here and there.

In the end game, he will likely be near where he started (or broke).

Joe.......... if you're not moving forward then you're falling back.
Holding losing trades for an indefinite period is not "forward".

Time is money. One should attempt not to waste either.
When the Joker is in the deck.. fear not and play it well
  • #1,097
  • Nov 24, 2013 7:07pm Nov 24, 2013 7:07pm
Quoting jmn5611
{quote} Going small in my mind is a matter of being able to emulate what the banks do. No one knows what the market is going to do. Even central bank interventions are only temporary in nature. The market will ultimately decide what the fair exchange value of a pair is. I go so small because if I buy the very top or sell the very bottom, I can do something about it beside pay the bank for being wrong in the way of a stop loss. I have bought the top and sold the bottom of moves enough to know that one needs a plan B.
Plan B is always good. I am working on a unified plan A. I am a one plan man.
  • #1,098
  • Nov 24, 2013 7:16pm Nov 24, 2013 7:16pm
Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote} . I am a one plan man.

It seems that your only plan to date is trading without a stop.
Sorry, Joe. That isn't a plan
When the Joker is in the deck.. fear not and play it well
  • #1,099
  • Nov 24, 2013 7:16pm Nov 24, 2013 7:16pm
Quoting Turveyd
{quote} Obviously your trading very small, a level where trading which go against you need to go a long way to wipe you out and accumulate many of them. Downside to that is, trades which go your way need to go a long way to make much money. I see this being a months of continual small profit, all looking great, then a couple of bad trades will wipe out the gains pretty quickly, and while you wait for them to come back others will do the same, so on and so forth. Come on, honestly, how long have you been trading this way ?? what's your profit / loss...
No use fishing. My method is not available for share.
  • #1,100
  • Nov 24, 2013 7:24pm Nov 24, 2013 7:24pm
Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote} No use fishing. My method is not available for share.
Indeed. You offered absolutely nothing of value to discuss.
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