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Trading Without a StopLoss

  • #1,021
  • Nov 24, 2013 2:23pm Nov 24, 2013 2:23pm
Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote} I don't understand why buy 10 and sell 5 makes sense. Buy 10 and sell 15 makes more sense, unless you are a stooge sent here by the banks.
No body plans to buy at 10 and sell at 5 the same as you don't plan for your trades to be 1000pips negative.

The issue is, you believe the market to be totally random I to have thought that at times, but it isn't, setups exist where you can reliably make profit, without just taking random trades and always holding till profit.

How much is say a trade going 1000pips against you worth in % terms of your account ?? 1% maybe ??

If it is, then you need 1000pips of profit to make 1% on your account and we've seen you scalp out say 5pips average after Comm's ? so that's 200 positive trades to offset 1 that's -1000.

Too slow for my likings, never turn a small account into a wage in a million years doing above.
Nothing to it, but to do it!!! Stick to the plan FOOL!!!!
  • #1,022
  • Nov 24, 2013 2:31pm Nov 24, 2013 2:31pm
Quoting shellsnail
{quote} It makes sense if you can either reduce your loss or get a profit... Here's another example in case you retort that this only works on LOWER TIME FRAMES. I am showing you all the systems/strategy that I trade. oh and in case you think this is a failing system. So maybe it's about time you prove your case with some evidence rather than just talk. {image} {image}

If you wait long enough, his point is, it'll eventually 99.9% ( he's only after scalp profit ) of the time get to a profit level therefore that's better than taking a loss ever.

Taking a random trade then waiting to take profit, what ever, isn't really classed as trading, I personally think it's just not that simple.

Wonder if he's got a GU long at 2.1000 area he's still holding short
Nothing to it, but to do it!!! Stick to the plan FOOL!!!!
  • #1,023
  • Nov 24, 2013 2:32pm Nov 24, 2013 2:32pm
Quoting Turveyd
{quote} If you wait long enough, his point is, it'll eventually 99.9% ( he's only after scalp profit ) of the time get to a profit level therefore that's better than taking a loss ever. Taking a random trade then waiting to take profit, what ever, isn't really classed as trading, I personally think it's just not that simple. Wonder if he's got a GU long at 2.1000 area he's still holding short
I don't think he is doing that. If he is he wouldn't have the cheek to call others gamblers when it's clear he is the one that's gambling.

Let's wait to see what he retorts with (if he does come back)... or maybe now he is scrambling for the Stoch (7,2,2) indicator and wondering to himself how come he didn't see such an obvious edge before and instead had to resort to buying and selling on the same pair at the same time.. Just kidding.
Build good relationships with others.
  • #1,024
  • Nov 24, 2013 2:41pm Nov 24, 2013 2:41pm
Quoting shellsnail
{quote} I don't think he is doing that. If he is he wouldn't have the cheek to call others gamblers when it's clear he is the one that's gambling. Let's wait to see what he retorts with (if he does come back)... or maybe now he is scrambling for the Stoch (7,2,2) indicator and wondering to himself how come he didn't see such an obvious edge before and instead had to resort to buying and selling on the same pair at the same time.. Just kidding.

No he's definately doing that, 1000's of trades from the look of it, never holding more than a few pips in cause he's been burnt to many times holding for more.

The more profit he holds for then the higher the odds he'll get stuck in trades.
Nothing to it, but to do it!!! Stick to the plan FOOL!!!!
  • #1,025
  • Nov 24, 2013 2:58pm Nov 24, 2013 2:58pm
Quoting shellsnail
{quote} It makes sense if you can either reduce your loss or get a profit... Here's another example in case you retort that this only works on LOWER TIME FRAMES. I am showing you all the systems/strategy that I trade. oh and in case you think this is a failing system. So maybe it's about time you prove your case with some evidence rather than just talk. {image} {image}
Why would I buy there when it was dopping ? Assuming I had a really good reason and bought and stayed with the trade. At today's price, I would have made money.
  • #1,026
  • Nov 24, 2013 3:01pm Nov 24, 2013 3:01pm
Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote} Why would I buy there when it was dopping ? Assuming I had a really good reason and bought and stayed with the trade. At today's price, I would have made money.
So we are back to the conclusion: it depends on your system rules. Just because a system uses stoplosses, doesn't automatically make it a losing system or the trader a gambler.

So long as you are making money, why bother arguing over this.

Cheers.

and FYI the market doesn't care about what reason you have for the trade. your reason can be darn good and it can still be down a thousand pips. (in the mean time, staying in the trade is soaking up your precious margin.)
Build good relationships with others.
  • #1,027
  • Nov 24, 2013 3:07pm Nov 24, 2013 3:07pm
Quoting Turveyd
{quote} No body plans to buy at 10 and sell at 5 the same as you don't plan for your trades to be 1000pips negative. The issue is, you believe the market to be totally random I to have thought that at times, but it isn't, setups exist where you can reliably make profit, without just taking random trades and always holding till profit. How much is say a trade going 1000pips against you worth in % terms of your account ?? 1% maybe ?? If it is, then you need 1000pips of profit to make 1% on your account and we've seen you scalp out say 5pips average...
Well you do plan to buy 10 and sell 5 if you buy at 10 and stop at 5. This is what the trade means to the banks. Why are you blind to the fact that there might be someone on the other side of your trade who is out there to make money ?

There is no way to know the price will move 1000 pips against you. It might, or it might not. Both using a stoploss and not using a stoploss has equal chance of being right.
  • #1,028
  • Nov 24, 2013 3:09pm Nov 24, 2013 3:09pm
Quoting shellsnail
{quote} So we are back to the conclusion: it depends on your system rules. Just because a system uses stoplosses, doesn't automatically make it a losing system or the trader a gambler. So long as you are making money, why bother arguing over this. Cheers. and FYI the market doesn't care about what reason you have for the trade. your reason can be darn good and it can still be down a thousand pips. (in the mean time, staying in the trade is soaking up your precious margin.)

If you check back, he posted his trades, thousands of them, some active for days and closed for 5pips despite a 20-30pip TP.

If he let his TP hit and set at 30 say he'd make a lot more $$$'s, most barely cover his Commision charge sadly.

He has a floating loss of quite a lot and is currently negative overall aswell I believe until such time as those floaters get back to profit maybe 1 day eventually.

The small profits he's banking at the time aren't currently compensating for the trades he's got stuck in.


Correct Beginner Joe ??
Nothing to it, but to do it!!! Stick to the plan FOOL!!!!
  • #1,029
  • Nov 24, 2013 3:10pm Nov 24, 2013 3:10pm
Quoting BeginnerJoe
Then let me state it for you once again. People lose because they offer the banks a guarantee to buy high and sell low, by way of using stops.
All you're stating here is that you do not know how or where or why or when to place stops. In short, you don't know what you're doing.....


Quoting BeginnerJoe
You said you use stops. Therefore you guarantee to buy high and sell low. Therefore you lose, and banks win. Therefore you are part of the 99.9%. Therefore what you have in your thread is not really worth bothering with.
You do not use stops, therefore you suffer huge drawdowns, therefore you are needlessly tying up capital while to make pennies, therefore the brokers win because they have your money at their disposal, interest free, therefore you haven't got a winning strategy. Therefore anything you say is redundent
Doing what you like is Freedom. Liking what you do is Happiness.
  • #1,030
  • Nov 24, 2013 3:12pm Nov 24, 2013 3:12pm
Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote} Yes it does. Ask to see statements from people here. You will find they keep buying high and selling low, thereby proving the market is buying low and selling high. In fact, check your own statements. Afterwards, ask yourself why do you buy high and sell low ? Clearly that's not the way to go.
Show us your statement then we might be convinced
Doing what you like is Freedom. Liking what you do is Happiness.
  • #1,031
  • Nov 24, 2013 3:13pm Nov 24, 2013 3:13pm
Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote} Well you do plan to buy 10 and sell 5 if you buy at 10 and stop at 5. This is what the trade means to the banks. Why are you blind to the fact that there might be someone on the other side of your trade who is out there to make money ? There is no way to know the price will move 1000 pips against you. It might, or it might not. Both using a stoploss and not using a stoploss has equal chance of being right.

You don't understand the point of a SL I clearly see, which is some what worrying, the banks don't see your order to sell at 5 at a -5, it's just the risk normal people take.

GU went from 2.1000 to 1.3500 area pretty damn quickly without looking back, so if you where unlucky enough to get caught long near the top then you'd of had a position 7500pips in negative.
Nothing to it, but to do it!!! Stick to the plan FOOL!!!!
  • #1,032
  • Nov 24, 2013 3:14pm Nov 24, 2013 3:14pm
Quoting shellsnail
Just because a system uses stoplosses, doesn't automatically make it a losing system
A system that guarantees to buy high and sell low is a loser system. Even if the amount lost is small, it will add up and eventually lead a busted account.


Quoting shellsnail
staying in the trade is soaking up your precious margin.)
If you correctly size the trade, then you would have plenty of margin looking for something to soak it up.
  • #1,033
  • Nov 24, 2013 3:15pm Nov 24, 2013 3:15pm
Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote} Well you do plan to buy 10 and sell 5 if you buy at 10 and stop at 5. This is what the trade means to the banks. Why are you blind to the fact that there might be someone on the other side of your trade who is out there to make money ? There is no way to know the price will move 1000 pips against you. It might, or it might not. Both using a stoploss and not using a stoploss has equal chance of being right.
No one is blind to that fact, it's just that each trader defines his or her own parameters for each trade. Taking the loss at 5 can be better for overall profitability as I have just shown if you react accordingly to market conditions.

Well if you believe the expected value of letting the losing trades run is higher than cutting it, then by all means let it run... but from observing charts you will see how persistent trends can be, so why not just get out and take the opposite trade (i.e. subscribe to the view that perhaps the market is non-random?) or stay on cash (which is also a position)
Build good relationships with others.
  • #1,034
  • Nov 24, 2013 3:15pm Nov 24, 2013 3:15pm
Quoting Turveyd
{quote} If you check back, he posted his trades, thousands of them, some active for days and closed for 5pips despite a 20-30pip TP. If he let his TP hit and set at 30 say he'd make a lot more $$$'s, most barely cover his Commision charge sadly. He has a floating loss of quite a lot and is currently negative overall aswell I believe until such time as those floaters get back to profit maybe 1 day eventually. The small profits he's banking at the time aren't currently compensating for the trades he's got stuck in. Correct Beginner Joe ??
No. I suggest you stop making things up.
  • #1,035
  • Nov 24, 2013 3:18pm Nov 24, 2013 3:18pm
Quoting shellsnail
subscribe to the view that perhaps the market is non-random?

You are not listening. I have already pointed out earlier that the market can be predicted to buy low and sell high.
  • #1,036
  • Nov 24, 2013 3:18pm Nov 24, 2013 3:18pm
Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote} A system that guarantees to buy high and sell low is a loser system. Even if the amount lost is small, it will add up and eventually lead a busted account. {quote} If you correctly size the trade, then you would have plenty of margin looking for something to soak it up.
You know what is a even greater loser system?

A system that guarantees to sell at LOWEST and buy at HIGHEST when the trader gets margin-called because he refused to take those losses when they were small.
Build good relationships with others.
  • #1,037
  • Nov 24, 2013 3:18pm Nov 24, 2013 3:18pm
Quoting realjumper
{quote} All you're stating here is that you do not know how or where or why or when to place stops. In short, you don't know what you're doing..... {quote} You do not use stops, therefore you suffer huge drawdowns, therefore you are needlessly tying up capital while to make pennies, therefore the brokers win because they have your money at their disposal, interest free, therefore you haven't got a winning strategy. Therefore anything you say is redundent

Correct and the amount of spread and commision charges he pays his broker must absolutely LOVE him.

Increase the size of his TP from scalps to say 30 or 100pips after all they'll get there eventually by his logic, add in some trader logic to reduce the odds of getting stuck in trades and maybe a exit strategy if the longer term trend turns against him, and although slow, it could actually work.

FXCM account, double click enabled TP set to 100, then just ohh like that, click click and pretty much forget them, got to like the sound of that.
Nothing to it, but to do it!!! Stick to the plan FOOL!!!!
  • #1,038
  • Nov 24, 2013 3:19pm Nov 24, 2013 3:19pm
Quoting realjumper
{quote} Show us your statement then we might be convinced
I don't see any point in convincing you. You can offer no value in return.
  • #1,039
  • Nov 24, 2013 3:20pm Nov 24, 2013 3:20pm
Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote} You are not listening. I have already pointed out earlier that the market can be predicted to buy low and sell high.
If you can PREDICT the market *WOW we have a fortune teller here* then why are you even here posting on FFactory? Shouldn't you be counting your billions somewhere on an island.
Build good relationships with others.
  • #1,040
  • Nov 24, 2013 3:20pm Nov 24, 2013 3:20pm
Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote} No. I suggest you stop making things up.
Pretty sure that was you, busy so not going back to check.

We are trying to help you dude!!

Over all, are you in profit or loss ?? ( don't bother answering, just ask yourself that question )
Nothing to it, but to do it!!! Stick to the plan FOOL!!!!
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