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Trading Without a StopLoss

  • #1,001
  • Nov 24, 2013 12:01pm Nov 24, 2013 12:01pm
Quoting shellsnail
{quote} 1) The market doesn't buy low or sell high
Yes it does. Ask to see statements from people here. You will find they keep buying high and selling low, thereby proving the market is buying low and selling high. In fact, check your own statements. Afterwards, ask yourself why do you buy high and sell low ? Clearly that's not the way to go.
  • #1,002
  • Nov 24, 2013 12:13pm Nov 24, 2013 12:13pm
Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote} Yes it does. Ask to see statements from people here. You will find they keep buying high and selling low, thereby proving the market is buying low and selling high. In fact, check your own statements. Afterwards, ask yourself why do you buy high and sell low ? Clearly that's not the way to go.
The market is not the one doing it, it's other traders/institutions/market players who are doing it. The market is merely an "institution/entity" facilitating the exchange of these commodities/forex whenever an order matches another.
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  • #1,003
  • Nov 24, 2013 12:17pm Nov 24, 2013 12:17pm
Quoting Turveyd
SL's are fine, if you know where to place them.
In other words, every time you lose, it is because you didn't know where to place the stop, and every time you win, it is because you knew where to place the stop. Why would you suffer from this duality of both knowing and not knowing where to place your stops ? The reason, I reckon, is you are gambling on where to place the stop. The fact that some stops are not hit is just pure luck.
  • #1,004
  • Nov 24, 2013 12:27pm Nov 24, 2013 12:27pm
Quoting shellsnail
{quote} The market is not the one doing it, it's other traders/institutions/market players who are doing it. The market is merely an "institution/entity" facilitating the exchange of these commodities/forex whenever an order matches another.
There's a more effective way to define the market. The market is the entity who control it, who can move it around at will, in a large proportion of the time. I know the market is not you, because you neither control it nor capable of moving it around. A bank or banks are the market, because they both control it and can move it around. Therefore there's a direct correlation, most of the time, between the banks' behaviour and the market's behaviour. The banks' wish, is the market's wish. The banks buy low and sell high. Therefore the market buy low and sell high.

If you want to argue on the high school definition of the market, I am happy to concede. That definition makes not an iota of difference to my P&L.
  • #1,005
  • Nov 24, 2013 12:30pm Nov 24, 2013 12:30pm
Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote} There's a more effective way to define the market. The market is the entity who control it, who can move it around at will, in a large proportion of the time. I know the market is not you, because you neither control it nor capable of moving it around. A bank or banks are the market, because they both control it and can move it around. Therefore there's a direct correlation, most of the time, between the banks' behaviour and the market's behaviour. The banks' wish, is the market's wish. The banks buy low and sell high. Therefore the market...
I don't think banks can drive anything more than temporary intra-day movements - they only fill client orders. The real trends are set by the big players like MNCs, central banks, governments and other institutions.
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  • #1,006
  • Nov 24, 2013 12:38pm Nov 24, 2013 12:38pm
Quoting shellsnail
{quote} I don't think banks can drive anything more than temporary intra-day movements - they only fill client orders.
Very well observed. Clients buy high at 10 and stop low at 5. These orders are more less always filled. I am happy to concede on the definition of the market or who moves it. But can you offer an explanation why the bank's clients persist in entering buying high and selling low orders ?
  • #1,007
  • Nov 24, 2013 12:48pm Nov 24, 2013 12:48pm
Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote} In other words, every time you lose, it is because you didn't know where to place the stop, and every time you win, it is because you knew where to place the stop. Why would you suffer from this duality of both knowing and not knowing where to place your stops ? The reason, I reckon, is you are gambling on where to place the stop. The fact that some stops are not hit is just pure luck.

Some times, the SL is hit for no reason and price reverses shortly afterwards, this is the price of playing the game, other times, price price keeps going against me and it stops me from holding onto bigger losses.

75% of my trades profit ish.
20% hit SL and go against me.
5% hit SL and reverse so it's only 5% of my trades having a SL on hinder my profits.

Because a SL gets hit doesn't mean I can't get back in, sometimes I get a better price 2mins later then my SL so it's all good.

No I have a METHOD, where I know where to place my SL and where to enter and what the odds on SL being hit are.

You on the other hand, have no such method, your just hoping price will always get you back into profit, before you have a margin call.

I have no issues with No SL, IF you have the ability to exit a trade at a loss, when it's likely to continue against you ? you lack this skill from what I've read, you live in HOPE nothing more.

Tis all about math's and math's don't lie!!
Nothing to it, but to do it!!! Stick to the plan FOOL!!!!
  • #1,008
  • Nov 24, 2013 12:56pm Nov 24, 2013 12:56pm
Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote} Very well observed. Clients buy high at 10 and stop low at 5. These orders are more less always filled. I am happy to concede on the definition of the market or who moves it. But can you offer an explanation why the bank's clients persist in entering buying high and selling low orders ?
What is high and what is low can change within minutes if support/resistance (block of orders) breaks. You may think you bought "low" but once that price falls through those orders you are left with having bought "high" if you don't get out.
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  • #1,009
  • Nov 24, 2013 12:59pm Nov 24, 2013 12:59pm
Quoting shellsnail
{quote} What is high and what is low can change within minutes if support/resistance (block of orders) breaks. You may think you bought "low" but once that price falls through those orders you are left with having bought "high" if you don't get out.
Market does not move by orders, it's the lack of orders on 1 side of the other, or an order inbalance.

When the market drops 100pips in seconds, it's not become billions of trades have gone through, it's cause there is no one on the bid for 100pips so the market drops until it finds bidders.
Nothing to it, but to do it!!! Stick to the plan FOOL!!!!
  • #1,010
  • Nov 24, 2013 1:34pm Nov 24, 2013 1:34pm
Ahh, the fear of loosing...

Dear future billionaires and future homeless, you are here because yesterday (well...Friday) you did an amazing thing, you survived. Either it was a loss day , or a win, it doesn't matter, you can still press the "New Order" button.
Opening an order without an exit strategy(+ or -) is in my view a gamble. Maybe you are lucky and make 100% return, maybe 200%, but trust me, one day something will go wrong (rate cut, war start, DJI flash crash...etc) and you will bite the dust.
It's like a child that's hiding behind his hands, thinking you won't see him... why won't you accept the fact the trading implies loosing, being wrong, being exposed to random crap?
It's funny how you don't see any thread with the title "Trading without a Take Profit".

Good luck to those who trade this way, you really need it!

ps: I did this shit with a 200$ account. had a e/u short with a SL bigger than the free margin. at -80% of the account i hedged it(+10%). ended with -70% on that trade. That day i promised myself i'll never do this kind of crap.
  • #1,011
  • Nov 24, 2013 1:46pm Nov 24, 2013 1:46pm
Quoting Turveyd
{quote} Market does not move by orders, it's the lack of orders on 1 side of the other, or an order inbalance. When the market drops 100pips in seconds, it's not become billions of trades have gone through, it's cause there is no one on the bid for 100pips so the market drops until it finds bidders.
Yeah as I said, price falls through those orders as all the trades are executed and reaches empty pockets of air below. that's when you are left with a buy order that's "high"

so i don't see how what you said differs from what I said.
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  • #1,012
  • Nov 24, 2013 1:49pm Nov 24, 2013 1:49pm
Quoting BooG
Ahh, the fear of loosing... Dear future billionaires and future homeless, you are here because yesterday (well...Friday) you did an amazing thing, you survived. Either it was a loss day , or a win, it doesn't matter, you can still press the "New Order" button. Opening an order without an exit strategy(+ or -) is in my view a gamble. Maybe you are lucky and make 100% return, maybe 200%, but trust me, one day something will go wrong (rate cut, war start, DJI flash crash...etc) and you will bite the dust. It's like a child that's hiding behind his...

haha don't know if you noticed but you have 666% returns.. nasty stuff ^^
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  • #1,013
  • Nov 24, 2013 1:49pm Nov 24, 2013 1:49pm
Quoting Turveyd
{quote} Some times, the SL is hit for no reason and price reverses shortly afterwards, this is the price of playing the game, other times, price price keeps going against me and it stops me from holding onto bigger losses. 75% of my trades profit ish. 20% hit SL and go against me. 5% hit SL and reverse so it's only 5% of my trades having a SL on hinder my profits. Because a SL gets hit doesn't mean I can't get back in, sometimes I get a better price 2mins later then my SL so it's all good. No I have a METHOD, where I know where to place my SL and...
I haven't told anyone of my method. Your speculation about what I do is incorrect. My method involves active countermeasures to makes trades survivable. This approach is understood by the more experienced people. I don't expect others to understand.

75% win rate is a remarkable figure if it's a TA based approach. Do you have a thread telling people how you are doing it ? I don't mind have a quick eyball over it. Not that I am interested in your method, just that it's out of the norm of what I am used to see.
  • #1,014
  • Nov 24, 2013 1:52pm Nov 24, 2013 1:52pm
Quoting shellsnail
{quote} What is high and what is low can change within minutes if support/resistance (block of orders) breaks. You may think you bought "low" but once that price falls through those orders you are left with having bought "high" if you don't get out.
No I don't think people buy low. They usually do something similar to buying at 10 and stopping at 5. So they always aim to buy high and sell low. Support and resistance don't change this fact.
  • #1,015
  • Nov 24, 2013 2:00pm Nov 24, 2013 2:00pm
Quoting BooG
i hedged it(+10%). ended with -70% on that trade.
Should have hedged 100% if you could not withstand a move against you. What happened was a case of lack of risk control and not a case of lack of stoploss.
  • #1,016
  • Nov 24, 2013 2:01pm Nov 24, 2013 2:01pm
Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote} No I don't think people buy low. They usually do something similar to buying at 10 and stopping at 5. So they always aim to buy high and sell low. Support and resistance don't change this fact.
But I have just demonstrated (by reasoning) how low can become high within minutes, buying at 10 and stopping at 5 can make perfect sense if market conditions changes.

Here's an example that I trade.
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: example.png Size: 70 KB
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  • #1,017
  • Nov 24, 2013 2:02pm Nov 24, 2013 2:02pm
Quoting shellsnail
{quote} Yeah as I said, price falls through those orders as all the trades are executed and reaches empty pockets of air below. that's when you are left with a buy order that's "high" so i don't see how what you said differs from what I said.
Sorry, thought I read the standard answer people think to that, my bad!! ( LONG WEEK ! )
Nothing to it, but to do it!!! Stick to the plan FOOL!!!!
  • #1,018
  • Nov 24, 2013 2:05pm Nov 24, 2013 2:05pm
Quoting shellsnail
{quote} But I have just demonstrated (by reasoning) how low can become high within minutes, buying at 10 and stopping at 5 can make perfect sense if market conditions changes.
I don't understand why buy 10 and sell 5 makes sense. Buy 10 and sell 15 makes more sense, unless you are a stooge sent here by the banks.
  • #1,019
  • Nov 24, 2013 2:05pm Nov 24, 2013 2:05pm
I did do the math on going no or very large SL on my method, If I factored in my first 2 losing trades which where bad trades and not really to method, then I'd of been better off with no SL, but if I ignore those then I'm better off with a SL as very few SL hits after that.

Then factor in, without a SL how small a lot size I'd have to trade and I'm much much better off with a SL.


I hate SL's if I thought I could trade without them, I would, plain and simple and I have the ability to exit trades profit or loss depending on how it's likely to go.
Nothing to it, but to do it!!! Stick to the plan FOOL!!!!
  • #1,020
  • Nov 24, 2013 2:10pm Nov 24, 2013 2:10pm
Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote} I don't understand why buy 10 and sell 5 makes sense. Buy 10 and sell 15 makes more sense, unless you are a stooge sent here by the banks.
It makes sense if you can either reduce your loss or get a profit...

Here's another example in case you retort that this only works on LOWER TIME FRAMES.
I am showing you all the systems/strategy that I trade.

oh and in case you think this is a failing system.

So maybe it's about time you prove your case with some evidence rather than just talk.
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Attached Image
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