Trading Without a StopLoss | Page 50 | Forex Factory

Options

Go to
Permalinks
Print Thread

Similar Threads

MT4 Trading without GAP and without Excel 669 replies

Trading Without a Stoploss--BHILC 52 replies

Set Order without StopLoss / TakeProfit ? 4 replies

Trading without a stoploss 53 replies

MB Trading software, how to place stoploss and target 1 reply

Attachments: Trading Without a StopLoss
Exit Attachments

Trading Without a StopLoss

  • #981
  • Nov 23, 2013 12:05pm Nov 23, 2013 12:05pm
Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote} Going large on events that you largely have no control make no sense. That is the direction of gambling. I think people should not be afraid of work if such work produces a return. I would understand it if people avoid work when there's no obvious sign of pay-off.
I think people do work, Joe, but they work on the wrong things. This forum and I would say all others like it have people that have made entries an art. Where to get out? How to get out? How much to get in with in the first place? How to manage a position that goes against them on the first tick? No clue on any of those questions, but it is those questions that ultimately determine the success or failure of any trader.

You can see the emotional investment a lot of traders have made on entries. To use an airplane analogy, they take off and then promptly fly into a mountain. This is what they call trading.
If you are good at something, never do it for free--Joker
  • #982
  • Nov 23, 2013 3:52pm Nov 23, 2013 3:52pm
Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote} I have been saying since the beginning of this thread that making a guarantee to buy high and sell low is a major reason that people are going wrong. Since you follow this practice, there's no way for you to succeed either.
And I have been saying since the beginning, this is not about me, but your assumption about my trading is, like everything you have said, completely wrong.



Quoting BeginnerJoe
The added trouble for you is that, you admit yourself, you are not convincing.
No...I said: "I'm not trying to be convincing. I'm giving YOU the opportunity to show us 99.9% losers what you have." Stop telling lies.


Quoting BeginnerJoe
Therefore my conclusion is that you have no clue when it comes to profitability.
It is impossible to reach any conclusion without doing the research first. You have admitted that you have not read Genesis thread, so you can not possibly arrive at any conclusion as to whether I am profitable or not. However, all the data is there for you to see.

You, on the other hand, have provided ZERO data....


Quoting BeginnerJoe
Unlike you I don't care if others think I am profitable.
We know...and we know that your are not profitable. You are firmly stuck in the losers camp...that is very obvious because your mouth keeps on letting you down....which is why I'm asking for a chart or two.

It's a very simple process.....all you have to do is drag a few of your successful trades out of the MT$ history and then take a screenshot of that chart. Then we will be able to see your winning trades. Of course you will need to add a brief explanation as to why you took the trade, but, hey man, it's Sunday, you have the time.


Quoting BeginnerJoe
I see no reason to prove anything.
The reason is simple......you are wandering around FF as if you are some sort of expert.....and you're telling us that 99.9% of people lose at trading, but not you. Why won't you show us that this is true? Perhaps it's because you are full of shit, and now that I'm asking for you to back up your mouth, you simply can not.


Quoting BeginnerJoe
But one thing I can say is that nearly every day, I buy low and sell high. Occasionally, I take a loss to adjust my stance to better fit the situation.
Show me this on a few charts please


Quoting BeginnerJoe
So the answer to how to be profitable is to buy low and sell high. I know this works because I have plenty of experience doing it.
Show me this on a few charts please


Quoting BeginnerJoe
With my latest innovation in strategy. I will double my rate of buying low and selling high. I estimate it will have double the rate of recoverability from imbalances. Further it will have a potential side benefit of hedging in adverse conditions. If there ever is a holy grail, I think this is going to be it. No, I am not going to show you how it works.
The buying and selling 'strategy' is not your innovation. It has been done to death on this forum and if you took m your head out of your ass and did some research, you'd know that. But you continue with your ever growing drawdown while taking pennies for profit...mister margin call is warming his hands to receive you......even though it's only a demo account!
Doing what you like is Freedom. Liking what you do is Happiness.
  • #983
  • Nov 23, 2013 6:28pm Nov 23, 2013 6:28pm
Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote} I have been saying since the beginning of this thread that making a guarantee to buy high and sell low is a major reason that people are going wrong.
While stops are known to accumulate around some critical middle to longer term levels, they exist everywhere as various traders trade various time frames. Some stops are hit, some are not. This allows to question validity of your buy high and sell low statements.

High and low are only good in respect of the time frame you trade. Since support following a break becomes resistance, what used to be low tends to become high for the next leg down.

It looks like you hope for pullback to that new resistance to get out at break even or small profit after possibly going deeply into red. While pullbacks are frequent, it is not guaranteed or may take a while to occur.

Is it worthwhile? Many, who oppose you, think it is not worth their time and energy. They rather take 30 pip hard loss and look forward to making it back later, rather than keeping 100 pip paper loss, averaging down, and hoping for the market to give money back. Possibly they will find a way to make back the pips and do more along the 100 pip ride down.

While you refuse to reveal your balancing rules, it is obvious you have to have some sort of anticipation that price is more likely to go in some direction. This anticipation would have to contribute to positions not fully offset in order to collect any hard profit. It would be wrong to call any gain booked on one leg, but offset by not realized losses on another leg as profit even if accounting but more likely tax rules require you recognize that as profit. Worst part of your style, you will likely have to pay tax on that vapor profit.
  • #984
  • Edited Nov 24, 2013 9:33am Nov 23, 2013 9:59pm | Edited Nov 24, 2013 9:33am
Quoting grin
High and low are only good in respect of the time frame you trade.
No, buying high at 10 and stopping low at 5 is buying high and selling low in any time frame. People who engage in this practice are bound to lose even if not 100% of the time. They will be bled to death sooner or later.


Quoting grin
Worst part of your style, you will likely have to pay tax on that vapor profit.
I have not stated my method, so you are jumping to conclusions. My current method is based on an old method that was highly cash generative. My new method will be based on the old method with double the cash generation. If cash is generated, paying tax is no problem. To save you getting confused, there is the old method, the current method, then the new method. The current method is capable of generating up to 1% account growth per day. The old method was significantly more cash generative than that. The new method is anticipated to generate 2 times the cash the old method did. With all the cash coming in, I will have considerable freedom of action. I can use the cash to pay tax, or use it for balancing.
  • #985
  • Nov 23, 2013 11:22pm Nov 23, 2013 11:22pm
Quoting realjumper
{quote} And I have been saying since the beginning, this is not about me, but your assumption about my trading is, like everything you have said, completely wrong.
I have stated why people lose. Since you say you do what they do in guaranteeing to buy high and sell low, therefore the conclusion has to be you lose like they do.


Quoting realjumper
The buying and selling 'strategy' is not your innovation.
My buying and selling strategy is my invention and I even have a unique strategy plan for it.
Attached Image
  • #986
  • Nov 23, 2013 11:30pm Nov 23, 2013 11:30pm
Quoting BeginnerJoe
I have stated why people lose.
No you haven't.


Quoting BeginnerJoe
Since you say you do what they do in guaranteeing to buy high and sell low, therefore the conclusion has to be you lose like they do.
Show me where I said that


Quoting BeginnerJoe
My buying and selling strategy is my invention and I even have a unique strategy plan for it.
ROFL.....HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.....don't give up your day job son....LOL......what muppet....ROFL.....
Doing what you like is Freedom. Liking what you do is Happiness.
  • #987
  • Nov 23, 2013 11:57pm Nov 23, 2013 11:57pm
Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote} I have stated why people lose. Since you say you do what they do in guaranteeing to buy high and sell low, therefore the conclusion has to be you lose like they do. {quote} My buying and selling strategy is my invention and I even have a unique strategy plan for it. {image}
Interesting graphic, Joe, but what does it mean? It looks like just a bunch of arrows to the uninitiated.
If you are good at something, never do it for free--Joker
  • #988
  • Nov 24, 2013 12:05am Nov 24, 2013 12:05am
Quoting jmn5611
{quote} Interesting graphic, Joe, but what does it mean? It looks like just a bunch of arrows to the uninitiated.

Actually, it looks like a background sprite image used in software or website apps to change the appearance of a given control or indicator. The control or indicator is the size of one 'square', and you set its appearance by adjusting the x- and y- offsets of the background sprite image.

:nerd:
  • #989
  • Nov 24, 2013 12:16am Nov 24, 2013 12:16am
I haven't read this thread and I probably won't bother - large parts of it are hidden anyway thanks to ignore function

But I believe it is possible to trade profitably and sustainably using rotational hedging instead of S/L - if you know what you are doing. Most people advocating no S/L have no idea. And when I say "hedging" I don't mean simultaneously buying and selling the same pair - that's not hedging, it's just being a fucktard.

I traded like this for a while - I stopped not because it doesn't work, (it does) or because it isn't sustainable (it is) but because the ratio of effort required to potential reward didn't match up to the way I trade now.

Basically I used FA almost exclusively, to rank individual currencies in order of potential strength. Buy the strongest, sell the weakest. If USD is potentially the strongest and JPY potentially the weakest, enter a long USD/JPY position. If the position goes against me it is because ONE of those currencies has gone against my forecast - instead of flattening the entire position I would use pending orders to replace the weak leg with what I felt was the next strongest/weakest. If I had deduced that EUR was the second strongest and GBP the second weakest, I would use a EUR/USD buy order and a GBP/JPY sell order to hedge the two legs of my original trade. Then the third strongest and third weakest as a backup to EUR and GBP, etc etc.

So if USD collapsed after I entered long U/J, my E/U buy order would be hit and I would be long both E/U and U/J. Obviously this position can be replicated with a single E/J long paying spread once instead of twice, but to do that I had to be at the screen 24/5.

Rotational hedging like this can go on infinitely, I often had 7 or 8 hedge orders lined up, but rarely did I get more than one or two orders filled in a week. Basically it means you are always long one currency and always short one currency. The long term profitability of it depends entirely on your accuracy in assessing each currencies relative strength - has nothing really to do with hedging or S/L, as long as you are careful and considerate of the worst possible scenario. The disadvantage is you always have to be in the market somewhere, you can't sit out and wait for better spots.
si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
  • #990
  • Nov 24, 2013 12:33am Nov 24, 2013 12:33am
Quoting numbnuts
I haven't read this thread and I probably won't bother - large parts of it are hidden anyway thanks to ignore function But I believe it is possible to trade profitably and sustainably using rotational hedging instead of S/L - if you know what you are doing. Most people advocating no S/L have no idea. And when I say "hedging" I don't mean simultaneously buying and selling the same pair - that's not hedging, it's just being a fucktard. I traded like this for a while - I stopped not because it doesn't work, (it does) or because it isn't sustainable...
Great post
MT4/MT5 EAs/Indicators/Alerts coder
  • #991
  • Nov 24, 2013 12:55am Nov 24, 2013 12:55am
Quoting numbnuts
Basically I used FA almost exclusively, to rank individual currencies in order of potential strength. Buy the strongest, sell the weakest.
I've been looking into this concept for the past few months, and have been getting excellent results. Instead of just using TA in my trading, I've started experimenting TA with some FA, to give me some nice PA. Timing it, for me, is what is key.
Time turns trend. - W.D. Gann
  • #992
  • Nov 24, 2013 1:01am Nov 24, 2013 1:01am
Quoting ForExtraPips
{quote} I've been looking into this concept for the past few months, and have been getting excellent results. Instead of just using TA in my trading, I've started experimenting TA with some FA, to give me some nice PA. Timing it, for me, is what is key.
Yeah timing is everything. It's uncanny how often a fundamentally strong currency will fall back to support, or a weak currency will approach resistance, just before a major news event. You still never know which way the news will go but if you are smart, you can use it to place very low risk/high reward trades.
si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
  • #993
  • Nov 24, 2013 1:04am Nov 24, 2013 1:04am
Quoting numbnuts
{quote} Yeah timing is everything. It's uncanny how often a fundamentally strong currency will fall back to support, or a weak currency will approach resistance, just before a major news event. You still never know which way the news will go but if you are smart, you can use it to place very low risk/high reward trades.
You've got it, right there. Where you said, "place very low risk/high reward trades." Yes, indeed.
Time turns trend. - W.D. Gann
  • #994
  • Nov 24, 2013 1:34am Nov 24, 2013 1:34am
Quoting numbnuts
I haven't read this thread and I probably won't bother - large parts of it are hidden anyway thanks to ignore function But I believe it is possible to trade profitably and sustainably using rotational hedging instead of S/L - if you know what you are doing. Most people advocating no S/L have no idea. And when I say "hedging" I don't mean simultaneously buying and selling the same pair - that's not hedging, it's just being a fucktard. I traded like this for a while - I stopped not because it doesn't work, (it does) or because it isn't sustainable...
If you are good at something, never do it for free--Joker
  • #995
  • Nov 24, 2013 8:35am Nov 24, 2013 8:35am
Quoting realjumper
{quote} No you haven't.
Then let me state it for you once again. People lose because they offer the banks a guarantee to buy high and sell low, by way of using stops.


Quoting realjumper
{quote} Show me where I said that
You said you use stops. Therefore you guarantee to buy high and sell low. Therefore you lose, and banks win. Therefore you are part of the 99.9%. Therefore what you have in your thread is not really worth bothering with.
  • #996
  • Nov 24, 2013 8:36am Nov 24, 2013 8:36am
Quoting jmn5611
{quote} Interesting graphic, Joe, but what does it mean? It looks like just a bunch of arrows to the uninitiated.
That's the dna map of my new strategy. It describes all balanced states of the strategy.
  • #997
  • Nov 24, 2013 8:52am Nov 24, 2013 8:52am
Quoting ForExtraPips
{quote} I've been looking into this concept for the past few months, and have been getting excellent results. Instead of just using TA in my trading, I've started experimenting TA with some FA, to give me some nice PA. Timing it, for me, is what is key.
But you miss one key element. Regardless of the technical and fundamental environment, the market is adaptive to your actions. The market uses a very simple strategy of buying low and selling high. The technical and fundamental factors can usually wait until the market achieves its strategy goal. In the mean time you are stopped out, thereby fulfilling the market's goal.
  • #998
  • Nov 24, 2013 11:21am Nov 24, 2013 11:21am
Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote} Then let me state it for you once again. People lose because they offer the banks a guarantee to buy high and sell low, by way of using stops. {quote} You said you use stops. Therefore you guarantee to buy high and sell low. Therefore you lose, and banks win. Therefore you are part of the 99.9%. Therefore what you have in your thread is not really worth bothering with.

Not strictly true, although the weaker your trading method the better off you'll be with no SL's, SL's are fine, if you know where to place them.

No SL = HUGE occasional losses, tight SL = death by a 1000nd cuts, loose SL = moderate losses.

But allowing for average losing trading style like most people have the out come likely works out very much the same between No and Moderate SL sizes.
Nothing to it, but to do it!!! Stick to the plan FOOL!!!!
  • #999
  • Nov 24, 2013 11:22am Nov 24, 2013 11:22am
Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote} But you miss one key element. Regardless of the technical and fundamental environment, the market is adaptive to your actions. The market uses a very simple strategy of buying low and selling high. The technical and fundamental factors can usually wait until the market achieves its strategy goal. In the mean time you are stopped out, thereby fulfilling the market's goal.
1) The market doesn't buy low or sell high - the market is a place for buyers and sellers to exchange goods/services at an agreed price (usually termed as the market equilibrium price).

2) How do you prove that technical and fundamental factors usually wait until the market achieves its strategy goal?

3) Agree with the last one - The market's role is to fulfil as many orders (in terms of volume) as possible, hence stop orders tend to be fulfilled because they represent a promise to buy high and sell low.
Build good relationships with others.
  • #1,000
  • Nov 24, 2013 11:34am Nov 24, 2013 11:34am
Quoting shellsnail
{quote} 1) 3) Agree with the last one - The market's role is to fulfil as many orders (in terms of volume) as possible, hence stop orders tend to be fulfilled because they represent a promise to buy high and sell low.

Stop orders fill, cause Retail don't understand how to place them.

An SL should be at a point where if the market gets there then the odds are it will keep going against you, so if your buying support then a new low would be your SL, BUT they know that Retail will have SL's just under and they'll dip under to hit the SL's and scoop up some cheaper orders, so can't run it to close generally 10pips under is okay.

Alternatively, wait for the dip under then get in at the cheaper price just like there doing, I run 2 orders 1 incase it doesn't / I miss the blip and another on the SL hitting spike down.

Sometimes, they aren't spike there the start of a break down ofcourse.

If your trading a pull back in a uptrend, then SL needs to be at a level where the trend is likely to fail, but the SL would likely get hit at a short term low, you'd be better off exiting manually on a retrace most of the time, but not always.

In short there really is no hard and fast rule, but it makes trading interesting at least
Nothing to it, but to do it!!! Stick to the plan FOOL!!!!
3 traders viewing now