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Trading Without a StopLoss

  • #781
  • Nov 20, 2013 11:18am Nov 20, 2013 11:18am
Merchants are businessmen, thieves are not. But only the lowest low, the loser of losers are gambling thieves.
  • #782
  • Nov 20, 2013 11:25am Nov 20, 2013 11:25am
Quoting 2+2=4ex
{quote} You don't want to trade places with Joe, believe me. He trades without a stop loss. If you want to avoid the drawdown from hell, and most probably a margin call, don't do as Joe does.
Oh I'm not, no worries. It was just a pun on his nick (well, on the 'Beginner' part).
I'm sticking to my guns and my stop losses. But thanks for the advice.
  • #783
  • Nov 20, 2013 11:39am Nov 20, 2013 11:39am
I normally do my accounting after US close. As it is a dull moment currently, I thought I'd add up the pips anyway. After a half day of trading (I woke up at 12pm gmt), my account growth so far for the day is 0.6%. I would say it's a typical day unless something good shows up later.

Forex as a business is highly cash generative.

Now I go do dinner. I think I have earned it. When I return I may well have more pips waiting for me to pick up.
  • #784
  • Nov 20, 2013 11:44am Nov 20, 2013 11:44am
I usually have pending trades in the which to catch the market when it moves my way. I figure out lines of Support and resistance,, and try to avoid having a pending trade on when the market nears these.
I trade a lot size about half that which makes me uncomfortable (right now at .07 lots)I have a fixed bias depending a lot upon the monthly chart and also upon the swap. Always biased in the direction of the swap. If monthly chart disagrees I do not trade that pair.

Four pair is enough to keep me entertained: all of them playing with the USD as common element. This way I know I am awake when USD news hits, and I am familiar with what happens during these times, and can take action.

For now, none of them is closer than 30% of their extremes so I can play these pairs pretty freely.

I can get quite aggressive by starting a new entry before a current one closes, Akin to doubling the size of my bets.

I can be neutral by leaving a space equal to the spread between one pending entry and another.

I leave a space around lines of support/resistance, so the market can change directions without me.

I can close all pending trades If I fall below 290% margin, and wait for market to come back before resuming trades. Usually 60% of my principle is unengaged, so I am more conservative than Samer, Though , following his lead, I now use 10 pips as my usual take profit point.

Usually I am very aggressive if I get above 400% margin.

I tend to be very visual in my thinking, and avoid complicated indicators. They seem to me to make my decisions harder, not easier, but that's me...
This can, will probably evolve. Currently I am studying Samer's technique, not to follow him blindly, however much I like him, but in order to make more of his ideas that attract me, my own.

It is quite possible that you can incorporate all of these ideas into your practice and still lose everything you have. Use only those of these that work for you.

I am happy with what this pattern does for me, and am reluctant to change much of it very quickly lest I lose the feel I have acquire over the years (I have been doing it for around five, casting about and losing money and trying ides until i started getting good results for me.

I started posting around two years ago now, and I came to believe that if someone has posted for five years or more, this is evidence that his ideas are worth study.

If I am posting similar posts five years from now, I will be very happy. (I am an old man, That would make me nearly 80). If I fail or quit, I promise to let you know. If I just stop posting, I am dead. Don't be sorry for me; I lead a rich and satisfying life, filled with joys and delight such that I might very well pass into Paradise and not notice.
  • #785
  • Nov 20, 2013 12:03pm Nov 20, 2013 12:03pm
Quoting BeginnerJoe
I normally do my accounting after US close. As it is a dull moment currently, I thought I'd add up the pips anyway. After a half day of trading (I woke up at 12pm gmt), my account growth so far for the day is 0.6%. I would say it's a typical day unless something good shows up later. Forex as a business is highly cash generative. Now I go do dinner. I think I have earned it. When I return I may well have more pips waiting for me to pick up.
Without using a stop loss, Joe's "0.6% account growth" means very little. Does it include open drawdown? Let's give the benefit of doubt and say it does. He can continue to stack 0.6% daily over the next month or two, but eventually he will run into that 1 trade that will take back all those daily gains. That will be a sad day.
  • #786
  • Nov 20, 2013 12:36pm Nov 20, 2013 12:36pm
hello friends and "attackers"

as i am obliged to show you my results without stop loss, on today most of my trades opened for more than few days are closed with profit and one trade closed with loss due to the large gap in spread

enjoy or envoy.. i do not care at all

EQUITY

Attached Image (click to enlarge)
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GUYS BE AWARE FROM HUNTING YOUR STOP LOSSES BY YOUR BROKER & BY "GHOSTS"
  • #787
  • Nov 20, 2013 1:03pm Nov 20, 2013 1:03pm
Quoting Samer1970
hello friends and "attackers" as i am obliged to show you my results without stop loss, on today most of my trades opened for more than few days are closed with profit and one trade closed with loss due to the large gap in spread enjoy or envoy.. i do not care at all EQUITY {image}
Look at this mess.

You should learn how to trade instead of flirting with disaster.

Stats don't lie.
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  • #788
  • Nov 20, 2013 1:27pm Nov 20, 2013 1:27pm
Quoting Luther
{quote} Look at this mess. You should learn how to trade instead of flirting with disaster. Stats don't lie. {image}
Exactly. Thank you Samer for posting your TradeExplorer and confirming what we pretty much already knew: You don't know how to trade. Opening trades and never taking losses (closing them only when there are in profit) is not trading. Sooner or later you will bite the big one.
  • #789
  • Nov 20, 2013 1:46pm Nov 20, 2013 1:46pm
Quoting 2+2=4ex
{quote} Without using a stop loss, Joe's "0.6% account growth" means very little. Does it include open drawdown? Let's give the benefit of doubt and say it does. He can continue to stack 0.6% daily over the next month or two, but eventually he will run into that 1 trade that will take back all those daily gains. That will be a sad day.
0.6% is only preliminary. As part of the trading day remains and there are large movements, 1% day is certainly within possibility.

I told you many times before your predictive capabilities are non-existent. So, stop trying. Maybe that's where you have gone wrong with your "trading". The best solution for dealing with a non-existent skill is don't use it. There, I have given you some trade secret.

Learn to feel and flow with the force, you know ? At the moment, your fear of drawdowns is blocking the force.
  • #790
  • Nov 20, 2013 2:11pm Nov 20, 2013 2:11pm
Quoting 2+2=4ex
{quote} Hey I can pretend to know what I'm doing and call myself a businessman too! I can even tell people I'm an astronaut! On a forum you can be whatever you want to be baby! Ok seriously now, Joe may think his money is "working for him", but all he is doing is opening up the door to a swift beating by not limiting his losses. If his plan is to take miniscule take profits every day thinking they will one day add up to something larger than his drawdown, my suggestion is the same as it was before... he should go buy bonds or something with a fixed...
Hi 2+2,

Excellent post. Just a small nitpick. Hope you don't mind. Floating losses are not the same as closed losses, they are actually worse. Floating losses undoubtedly represent exposure to risk (ie, unrealized losses can grow larger) as you've mentioned, and additionally they eat up account margin. Meaning that for all practical purposes, floating losses decrease the amount of capital available to trade with at a given moment, representing effective loss of opportunity to, either profit, or worse yet to, recover from drawdown.

Let me just remind folks here that drawdown (I'm talking capital loss, not equity loss) if left unchecked, is the beginning of a vicious and difficult to reverse cycle, that will ultimately end in bankruptcy. As one bleeds capital, recovering it requires an increasing number of wins: need +25% win to recover from a -20% draw down, +50% from -33.3%, +100% from -50%, and so on so forth. Floating losses using margin further shrinks capital making the cycle even harder to break. With this in mind, one can also easily see why so many traders fall into the ‘over- traps’ (overtrading, oversizing, overleveraging), and end up filling the proverbial 95% ranks.

Risk is one the few things we as traders can have control over. Control your risk, or be controlled by it.


"To hold, you must first open your hand. Let go." - Lao Tzu
  • #791
  • Nov 20, 2013 2:59pm Nov 20, 2013 2:59pm
Quoting Luther
{quote} Look at this mess. You should learn how to trade instead of flirting with disaster. Stats don't lie. {image}
hi
i think i have the strength to show my status and to prove that any trader is using a well established strategy even if it is in your eyes a "disaster", but it makes good income while you are just to critic without any proof.

wow i have negative floating goes to be +ve.... many attackers like you said the same before few days back but i have proved each word i said.. the -ve floating will be +ve and the equity will pass the break even line ...

GUYS BE AWARE FROM HUNTING YOUR STOP LOSSES BY YOUR BROKER & BY "GHOSTS"
  • #792
  • Nov 20, 2013 3:23pm Nov 20, 2013 3:23pm
"Risk is one the few things we as traders can have control over. Control your risk, or be controlled by it.
-- I am in complete agreement with vox dei over his statement.

-- yet I trade without a fixed stop loss, and with ca. 30% floating debt. (it used to be 40% but now it's 30%).

-- Most of that stop loss is due to mistakes of overconfidence that I have made, trading in sizes too large, etc. that I will not make again.

--My broker is paying me money to keep me from closing these trades ( that is not his intention, but that's the result).

--Closing out all my floating losses will not help my equity one little bit. But it Will stop this cash from coming in.

So the question is, will this debt load get worse or better?

It is my reasoned assessment that it will slowly get better, and the leverage will help me overcome that.
What happens if I am wrong? If I see it getting significantly worse, I will close it out.... see how easy!


Again I will add my two cents, because like vox dei, I too have my motto


A margin call is a terrible thing!

so you see, even though he might not admit it, ultimately we are in agreement...

If I decide to close out all my floating loss, I will let you know on this thread, in detail and exactly why.
I do not have any Tablets of Stone concerning the Forex.
I continue to play with the idea of managed stop loss including ways to implement fixed ones. I have so far, however, found it vastly favorable to take myself out of a trade rather than let circumstance do it for me.
  • #793
  • Nov 20, 2013 3:34pm Nov 20, 2013 3:34pm
The difference between a great trader and a mediocre trader is that the former can control risks in all situations, including when not using stops. The repertoire for the latter is far narrower.

Anyway I had a great session today, very busy and very enjoyable. Total return was 1.05% account growth. This a above average for my performance.
  • #794
  • Nov 20, 2013 3:55pm Nov 20, 2013 3:55pm
Quoting BeginnerJoe
The difference between a great trader and a mediocre trader is that the former can control risks in all situations, including when not using stops. The repertoire for the latter is far narrower. Anyway I had a great session today, very busy and very enjoyable. Total return was 1.05% account growth. This a above average for my performance.
Great return Joe. Mine was somewhat less than 0.5%. 8 out of ten days or so I make that, the 9th day less. the 10 th day more.

Keep up the good work!
  • #795
  • Nov 20, 2013 4:38pm Nov 20, 2013 4:38pm
So, are we in agreement that now that Samer had his system handed back to him with a big sign saying "no thanks" he's been using a bit of the ol' girl called martingale to attempt to show everyone how super duper he is at turning a massive floating loss into the green zone?

Someone more interested please confirm this for me.

Monkey-accounting at its finest.
Congratulations ScalaFX for coming out of the closet!
  • #796
  • Nov 20, 2013 4:44pm Nov 20, 2013 4:44pm
Quoting Luther
{quote} Look at this mess. You should learn how to trade instead of flirting with disaster. Stats don't lie. {image}

i like this song too much.


check the link

chennai express - indian movie

great song

enjoy green tea fields .... ENJOY

Inserted Video
GUYS BE AWARE FROM HUNTING YOUR STOP LOSSES BY YOUR BROKER & BY "GHOSTS"
  • #797
  • Nov 20, 2013 4:52pm Nov 20, 2013 4:52pm
full of colours this song views , like forex full of $
but you need to know when and how to enjoy it.
GUYS BE AWARE FROM HUNTING YOUR STOP LOSSES BY YOUR BROKER & BY "GHOSTS"
  • #798
  • Nov 20, 2013 4:53pm Nov 20, 2013 4:53pm
Quoting Samer1970
{quote} i like this song too much. check the link chennai express - indian movie great song enjoy green tea fields .... ENJOY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dodDteh-m3Q

Ahhh............ now maybe I'm getting it. I noticed in the video there's an advertisement about
forex trading... "$10,144.82 in 30 minutes" so all you need to do is get people to follow you and
you can try to make a buck with your affiliate link.

Does that about sum it up ?
When the Joker is in the deck.. fear not and play it well
  • #799
  • Nov 20, 2013 5:04pm Nov 20, 2013 5:04pm
Quoting Slim Buffett
{quote} Ahhh............ now maybe I'm getting it. I noticed in the video there's an advertisement about forex trading... "$10,144.82 in 30 minutes" so all you need to do is get people to follow you and you can try to make a buck with your affiliate link. Does that about sum it up ?
AS YOU CAN SEE, I WANTED TO SHOW YOU HOW THE ADVERTISEMENT IN INTERNET WILL LEAD MANY PEOPLE TO WRONG DECISIONS, SUCH STOP LOSS, MANY GREAT BROKERS ARE MAKING ADVERTISEMENT IN INTERNET IN MANY DIFFERENT PLACES SAYING : CUT YOUR LOSSES SHORT" ... BY WHAT .... STOP LOSS AND SO MANY POOR TRADERS ARE FOLLOWING THEM WITHOUT THINKING..

I AM A TRADER DOES NOT USE STOP LOSS , AND BY THE WAY, I AM NOT SELLING HERE ANY THING. OK

I JUST SAW THE MOVIE BEFORE FEW HOURS BACK ON ZEE AFLAM CHANNEL AND I WANTED TO SHARE THE SONG WITH YOU AND BY THE CHANCE , THERE IS THIS ADVERTISEMENT... NOT RELEVANT

IT IS A VERY GOOD SONG

REALLY I ENJOY IT AND I HAVE WATCHED THIS SONG MANY TIMES ... MAY BE 40 TIMES TILL NOW IN FEW HOURS..


HAVE FUN
GUYS BE AWARE FROM HUNTING YOUR STOP LOSSES BY YOUR BROKER & BY "GHOSTS"
  • #800
  • Nov 20, 2013 5:08pm Nov 20, 2013 5:08pm
Quoting Samer1970
{quote} AS YOU CAN SEE, I WANTED TO SHOW YOU HOW THE ADVERTISEMENT IN INTERNET WILL LEAD MANY PEOPLE TO WRONG DECISIONS, SUCH STOP LOSS, MANY GREAT BROKERS ARE MAKING ADVERTISEMENT IN INTERNET IN MANY DIFFERENT PLACES SAYING : CUT YOUR LOSSES SHORT" ... BY WHAT .... STOP LOSS AND SO MANY POOR TRADERS ARE FOLLOWING THEM WITHOUT THINKING.. I AM A TRADER DOES NOT USE STOP LOSS , AND BY THE WAY, I AM NOT SELLING HERE ANY THING. OK I JUST SAW THE MOVE BEFORE FEW HOURS BACK ON ZEE AFLAM CHANNEL AND I WANTED TO SHARE THE SONG WITH YOU AND BY THE...
WELL OK THEN !!!

whatever you believe is fine with me

When the Joker is in the deck.. fear not and play it well
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