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Trading Without a StopLoss

  • #741
  • Nov 19, 2013 9:11am Nov 19, 2013 9:11am
Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote} There are other ways. If you want them, go find them yourself. Correct way of trading resembles a normal business that has to deal with fluctuating prices. Betting red or black and waiting to see if you have won is not trading. That's called gambling. Withdrawing the bet half way through the spinning of the wheel, via a stop loss, is not money management. It is gambling on the original gamble. Gamble + gamble = gamble. Gamblers are losers because the house edge ensures it that way. A real trader don't need to know if it's going up or going...
Gambling on red or black is just relying on blind luck. There is no analysis involved. No supply, no demand. No bid, no ask. And historical data or red & black is even more irrelevant than past market data.

Choosing a direction to trade in is (supposedly) based on analysis and reasoning (be it good or bad). Setting a stop loss is simply a way to limit your exposure. It's not compounding a bet on top of another bet.

Now, obviously, if you're right 100% of the time, you don't need to use stop losses. But for us mere mortals without Oracle-like divination skills, and who are hence known to err in judgement every now & then, stop losses are a useful tool.
  • #742
  • Nov 19, 2013 9:26am Nov 19, 2013 9:26am
It is also possible to be "always in" the market and to simply adjust position size in each pair according to the market's structure, such that you are always long or short (plus or minus X Units). The market's behavior then dictates how long or how short you are from day to day. Profits and losses accrue slowly and naturally over time and in accordance with the ebb and flow of price. This takes away the cumbersome and mostly futile task of guessing where price will go over and over again.
There's always money in the banana stand.
  • #743
  • Nov 19, 2013 9:30am Nov 19, 2013 9:30am
Quoting Jexter
{quote} Gambling on red or black is just relying on blind luck. There is no analysis involved. No supply, no demand. No bid, no ask. And historical data or red & black is even more irrelevant than past market data. Choosing a direction to trade in is (supposedly) based on analysis and reasoning (be it good or bad). Setting a stop loss is simply a way to limit your exposure. It's not compounding a bet on top of another bet. Now, obviously, if you're right 100% of the time, you don't need to use stop losses. But for us mere mortals without Oracle-like...
That seems to imply if I do analysis on red or black using moving average, macd, etc, etc, it will change the outcome of the gamble ?
  • #744
  • Nov 19, 2013 9:30am Nov 19, 2013 9:30am
Quoting BeginnerJoe
Playing red or black is gambling. Does anyone disagree ? (careful, i am setting up a trap here)
OOh...I love traps..
Spring it on me big boy.

Is playing red, then black, then red better than playing red alone?

Again my mother, when a waitress at a speakeasy, used to augment her salary at the roulette wheel. This is the way she would do it:
They would let her place a single $5 chip on the table, on red #8. Curiously enough, it always hit! Then everybody would make a big fuss about how easy it was to win at the wheel. Then she would walk away with her winnings.

This was at a well established casino at Saratoga Springs where Diamond Jim Brady was wont to play from time to time.

Of course the wheel was completely fair. Of course!
  • #745
  • Nov 19, 2013 9:40am Nov 19, 2013 9:40am
Quoting Luther
Yes the world is filled with people who actually would think you had something useful to say.
I take your word for it. I wouldn't know, nor do I care.

We are here discussing the differences between gambling and doing business. Do you suppose the two things are the same ?
  • #746
  • Nov 19, 2013 9:41am Nov 19, 2013 9:41am
Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote} That seems to imply if I do analysis on red or black using moving average, macd, etc, etc, it will change the outcome of the gamble ?
If you managed to base that from my post, then your divination skills are totally out of whack. I am saying the exact opposite, actually. Past red/black data is irrelevant. Hence analysis of said data is irrelevant. Trends, oscillators and what not, are all useless. Every spin of the wheel has exactly a 48.64% chance of showing red and the same of showing black (47.37% for our unfortunate american friends and their 00).

Even worse, other bettors have no incidence on the outcome either -unless the roulette is rigged, then you're probably better off betting on whatever will cost the house the least amount of money.
  • #747
  • Nov 19, 2013 9:41am Nov 19, 2013 9:41am
Hey Joe, should we let him in on our little secret? NAH!
  • #748
  • Nov 19, 2013 9:41am Nov 19, 2013 9:41am
Quoting Rap Skallion
{quote} OOh...I love traps.. Spring it on me big boy. Is playing red, then black, then red better than playing red alone? Again my mother, when a waitress at a speakeasy, used to augment her salary at the roulette wheel. This is the way she would do it: They would let her place a single $5 chip on the table, on red #8. Curiously enough, it always hit! Then everybody would make a big fuss about how easy it was to win at the wheel. Then she would walk away with her winnings. This was at a well established casino at Saratoga Springs where Diamond Jim...
Then you probably have fallen into the trap. But all I can say is women tend to have a special way of influencing events.
  • #749
  • Nov 19, 2013 9:48am Nov 19, 2013 9:48am
Quoting Luther
{quote} I asked you a very simple question. You couldn't answer it. Why is that so difficult?
It isn't difficult. I pick and choose which questions I answer. Some answers I just will not give. I have already explained to you real trading is like a normal business, it's more than just playing red or black.
  • #750
  • Nov 19, 2013 9:53am Nov 19, 2013 9:53am
Quoting LizardGizzard
It is also possible to be "always in" the market and to simply adjust position size in each pair according to the market's structure, such that you are always long or short (plus or minus X Units). The market's behavior then dictates how long or how short you are from day to day. Profits and losses accrue slowly and naturally over time and in accordance with the ebb and flow of price. This takes away the cumbersome and mostly futile task of guessing where price will go over and over again.
Yes, this makes sense, and I will admit this type of asset management is beyond my knowledge at the present time, so I'd rather stick money management tools that are simple to understand, such as, in this case, stop losses. The trading you describe is probably based on medium- to long-term positions, and a correct understanding of correlations between the assets being traded?

Although, I am still curious to understand how you decide to adjust your positions if not in regard to price direction.
  • #751
  • Edited 11:56am Nov 19, 2013 10:49am | Edited 11:56am
Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote} It isn't difficult. I pick and choose which questions I answer. Some answers I just will not give.

It's OK if you don't know the answer, I didn't mean to pressure you.

But if you want to pretend to know, then make up a better answer than this. It wasn't my intention to make you look completely lame.
  • #752
  • Nov 19, 2013 11:13am Nov 19, 2013 11:13am
Quoting Luther
{quote} It's OK if you don't know the answer, I didn't mean to pressure you. But if you want to pretend to know, then make up a better answer than this. It wasn't my intention to make you look completely lame. I'm sorry. shit... I'm just digging a hole here at this point. maybe I should just shut up....
Stop gambling and go get a job. That would be a perfect answer for you.
  • #753
  • Nov 19, 2013 11:33am Nov 19, 2013 11:33am
Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote} Stop gambling and go get a job. That would be a perfect answer for you.
This is my job.

The funny thing is, you wasted this short interface on your ego instead of asking one single relevant question about how any of this works.

Great traders are not gamblers. We are thieves.

Best of luck.
  • #754
  • Nov 19, 2013 3:16pm Nov 19, 2013 3:16pm
Quoting Luther
{quote} This is my job. The funny thing is, you wasted this short interface on your ego instead of asking one single relevant question about how any of this works. Great traders are not gamblers. We are thieves. Best of luck.
If you keep gambling and losing, I am not surprised you have to make up the loss by becoming a thief and steal. I think a job is better, or even being a normal thief who doesn't gamble is better.

I don't plan to be a thief or a gambler, and so I have nothing to ask.
  • #755
  • Nov 19, 2013 3:35pm Nov 19, 2013 3:35pm
hi all traders,

well, i have an idea to show you why the bankers trade without stop loss like the stocks and options.

simply, most of us are trading by 10k to 50k and we are afraid to lose this so we are trying to find any possible way to save our lose, by stoploss or by any other means.

however, i am 100% sure if you have a $200,000 in your account and you trade forex and you are keeping $100,000 safety in the account and you trade by 100,000 only then i am sure you will repeat after me...... think.... i will not use stop loss as i have enough money to wait even one month or to use any other method for protecting the trades...

i will give you another real example

i have opened a trade ( and i do not have $200,000) a trade on 1-11-2013, with +ve swap. and on today 19-11-2013 it is close with profit.

i kept 40% of my account to protect open trades and at the end of the day as per my rules to enter the trade ( at which it is very important ) i managed my account and i get win trade after 18 days of waiting ( patience )

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what do you think ? simply we are struggling here because we want to protect by any means our few $k.
GUYS BE AWARE FROM HUNTING YOUR STOP LOSSES BY YOUR BROKER & BY "GHOSTS"
  • #756
  • Nov 19, 2013 3:40pm Nov 19, 2013 3:40pm
Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote} If you keep gambling and losing, I am not surprised you have to make up the loss by becoming a thief and steal. I think a job is better, or even being a normal thief who doesn't gamble is better. I don't plan to be a thief or a gambler, and so I have nothing to ask.

Dude !!!! You're just wearing yourself out with your same old rhetoric crap. You don't get what others
sometimes try to say because you're so wrapped up in your "trading without an SL is not gambling" BS

Give it a rest

You might accidentally learn something.......... someday. (even from those whom you disagree with most).
When the Joker is in the deck.. fear not and play it well
  • #757
  • Nov 19, 2013 3:48pm Nov 19, 2013 3:48pm
i have noticed that few of us are giving proofs from either side ( with or without stop loss ) but most of the other posts are only talkings and talking without any real proofs, only theories and jokes and funny red and black or gambling //// \/\/ ////
GUYS BE AWARE FROM HUNTING YOUR STOP LOSSES BY YOUR BROKER & BY "GHOSTS"
  • #758
  • Nov 19, 2013 3:55pm Nov 19, 2013 3:55pm
instead of bla bla....... show us your real systems or strategies that you are defending your stop loss or without stop loss...
if we want jokes we can see "Friends", "home alone 1,2 " or tom and jerry cartoons..

come on friends, lets be serious...

show us your real systems .
GUYS BE AWARE FROM HUNTING YOUR STOP LOSSES BY YOUR BROKER & BY "GHOSTS"
  • #759
  • Nov 19, 2013 4:10pm Nov 19, 2013 4:10pm
Quoting Samer1970
instead of bla bla....... show us your real systems or strategies that you are defending your stop loss or without stop loss... come on friends, lets be serious...
I previously posited the following;
There's an entry; is long or short correct?
Would you never use an SL here?

So instead of "bla bla".... what's YOUR answer ?
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When the Joker is in the deck.. fear not and play it well
  • #760
  • Nov 19, 2013 4:21pm Nov 19, 2013 4:21pm
Quoting Samer1970
instead of bla bla....... show us your real systems or strategies that you are defending your stop loss or without stop loss... if we want jokes we can see "Friends", "home alone 1,2 " or tom and jerry cartoons.. come on friends, lets be serious... show us your real systems .
Hi Samer,
You can see some of my trading by viewing my Journal. I occasionally post a few trades there, normally noting where stops are located. While you are holding your trades into deep losses, I would flip the trade. I have been thinking more about how you might be trading, and have notices that a few of your AUD/USD trades are better by a hundred pips so far this week. Will follow you and some of the other "no stop" traders to see how you are doing. If you are successful it will be worth the time. Good luck and good trading.
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