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Trading Without a StopLoss

  • #661
  • Nov 15, 2013 3:06pm Nov 15, 2013 3:06pm
Quoting GEfx
{quote} Joe, that may not be what I meant. My assumption (prediction) is that if your trading strategy has you in a huge hole, it will likely have you in a hole...always. But I also agree with your point about taking a loss at a whim. You better have a reason for everything you do, or you should quit trading. I use stops on every trade, but I know other professional traders who never use them. However, not one of them would ever hold a losing trade, because it's easier and smarter to flip the loser and trade with the structure of the market, not...
You probably don't know much about professionals. Some professional hold losses, some don't. Just like people here. In the end it's not whether you hold losses that count but whether you make money. At least Samer is making progress and have a chance of making money, while others sit on their hands and have zero chance.
  • #662
  • Nov 15, 2013 3:09pm Nov 15, 2013 3:09pm
Quoting Samer1970
why you are going to such far away discussions, the thread is about stop loss, do you use it or not. myself i do not. i show the case of my way of trading why i do not use stop loss. it is not to prove my theory is correct by you or not. take it or leave it. i will stop posting here my results as i have shwed my way of not using stop loss. ssii does not use stop loss.. bye-bye.
How long have you been practicing this approach? I would love to check in on you in 6 months to see if you are still happy with it. Good luck and I hope you don't take any of my comments personally. However, I still think new traders should avoid this approach.
  • #663
  • Nov 15, 2013 3:10pm Nov 15, 2013 3:10pm
Quoting shellsnail
Two approaches. One with SL and one without. If you have time to watch the market 24/5 and babysit your trade, then by all means don't use a stop-loss. This is for the case of using limit orders. if you are using stop-orders to enter the market I will presume you will definitely need a stop. So what makes a good limit entry order? One that allows you to get out at break-even once you are proven wrong. I would say that if you read the market correctly, you should never run into a situation of a train moving against you... The only exception I would...
here you go.
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  • #664
  • Nov 15, 2013 3:12pm Nov 15, 2013 3:12pm
Quoting GEfx
{quote} How long have you been practicing this approach? I would love to check in on you in 6 months to see if you are still happy with it. Good luck and I hope you don't take any of my comments personally. However, I still think new traders should avoid this approach.
HI, OF COURSE, IT IS NOT PERSONALLY .

NO ISSUES.

GUYS BE AWARE FROM HUNTING YOUR STOP LOSSES BY YOUR BROKER & BY "GHOSTS"
  • #665
  • Nov 15, 2013 3:14pm Nov 15, 2013 3:14pm
Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote} You probably don't know much about professionals. Some professional hold losses, some don't. Just like people here. In the end it's not whether you hold losses that count but whether you make money. At least Samer is making progress and have a chance of making money, while others sit on their hands and have zero chance.
OK Joe, I'm moving on. Please don't take any of this personally. But yes, I do know a few things about trading, at least the things that work for me. And while I get my fair share of pips, the pros that lead my trading group run circles around me...lol. And yes, Samer is at least willing to put "out there" what he is doing for all of us to critique. I give him credit for that. Good trading to you.
  • #666
  • Nov 15, 2013 3:14pm Nov 15, 2013 3:14pm
Quoting shellsnail
{quote} here you go. {image}
here's an example from today's market.

brownie points if you guess which pair this is.
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  • #667
  • Nov 15, 2013 3:14pm Nov 15, 2013 3:14pm
Quoting GEfx
{quote} How long have you been practicing this approach? I would love to check in on you in 6 months to see if you are still happy with it. Good luck and I hope you don't take any of my comments personally. However, I still think new traders should avoid this approach.
I am sure the beginners will do their utmost to avoid this approach. But they will be here looking as you are, because the alternative is no better or could be worst. Sooner or later people will realise guaranteeing to buy high and sell low is a fast way to give away their money.
  • #668
  • Nov 15, 2013 3:14pm Nov 15, 2013 3:14pm
Quoting Samer1970
{quote} HI, OF COURSE, IT IS NOT PERSONALLY . NO ISSUES.
Thanks Samer, good trading and best wishes.
  • #669
  • Nov 15, 2013 3:18pm Nov 15, 2013 3:18pm
Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote} I am sure the beginners will do their utmost to avoid this approach. But they will be here looking as you are, because the alternative is no better or could be worst. Sooner or later people will realise guaranteeing to buy high and sell low is a fast way to give away their money.
Well, I agree that buying high and selling low is not a good idea...lol. I stopped doing that a long time ago, and suggest everyone do the same. BTW, the only thing I'm looking for is a way to kill some time. Good trading Joe!
  • #670
  • Nov 15, 2013 3:21pm Nov 15, 2013 3:21pm
A fact:

Stop loss order placed with your broker is basically saying you are WILLING and ABLE to sell or buy at that price. Last I checked, that's the definition of demand and supply. You are basically guaranteeing to buy high, sell low. Ofcourse institutions seeking to get their orders filled at the best possible price intraday will go into these stop-loss clusters Who wouldn't?

Another fact:

But it does take you out of the market especially if you are playing on the tiny time frames and cannot afford a sudden 50 pip SPIKE move against you.

But then again the question is, why are you, a retail trader, playing on those small time frames!?
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  • #671
  • Nov 15, 2013 3:24pm Nov 15, 2013 3:24pm
Quoting shellsnail
A fact: Stop loss order placed with your broker is basically saying you are WILLING and ABLE to sell or buy at that price. Last I checked, that's the definition of demand and supply. You are basically guaranteeing to buy high, sell low. Ofcourse institutions seeking to get their orders filled at the best possible price intraday will go into these stop-loss clusters Who wouldn't? Another fact: But it does take you out of the market especially if you are playing on the tiny time frames and cannot afford a sudden 50 pip SPIKE move against you. But...
But then again, these price spikes don't just happen randomly, unless some politician decides to say some nonsense. By all means avoid trading during heavy news, but bear in mind these are also the times for best profit. No risk no gain.
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  • #672
  • Nov 15, 2013 3:26pm Nov 15, 2013 3:26pm
Quoting shellsnail
{quote} But then again, these price spikes don't just happen randomly, unless some politician decides to say some nonsense. By all means avoid trading during heavy news, but bear in mind these are also the times for best profit. No risk no gain.
So maybe conclusion is, if you know what you are doing, you don't need to place a stop-loss order in the market.

But you really need to know what you are doing, and need to know when to get out when things are really going bad.

When all else fails, thank god for margin call, because as Jesse Livermore puts it, your margin is your stop-loss. Well not his exact words, but he did say something similar. After all, he did bet almost everything he had on every trade in the early days and relied on his margin as his only stop-loss.
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  • #673
  • Nov 15, 2013 3:29pm Nov 15, 2013 3:29pm
678 replies about something so rudimentary?

If you're not using a stop, you're NOT controlling your risk. Period. You're a delusional gambler that deserves to lose his money.

#mindblown
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  • #674
  • Nov 15, 2013 3:29pm Nov 15, 2013 3:29pm
Quoting gefx
{quote} thanks samer, good trading and best wishes.

after six months you will see this result as a ratio in %

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GUYS BE AWARE FROM HUNTING YOUR STOP LOSSES BY YOUR BROKER & BY "GHOSTS"
  • #675
  • Nov 15, 2013 3:33pm Nov 15, 2013 3:33pm
Quoting BeginnerJoe
{quote} My guess is you were like a little frog blinded by a bright light and unable to react when you realised you got-in in the wrong direction. What you could have done is traded the other direction as soon as it became apparent. That way you could keep the trade in the wrong direction and continue to make profit in the right direction. As the market goes in cycles, the right direction would eventually became the wrong direction and your incorrect trade would have become profitable. Trading successfully has a lot to do with managing what has...
Very true. But it is the same as exiting the trade with a stop-loss (as soon as it became apparent) and reentering when price got to another entry point. The net effect is exactly the same.

So I don't see how your approach is any different if you are simple hedging on the same pair.
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  • #676
  • Nov 15, 2013 3:33pm Nov 15, 2013 3:33pm
Quoting Samer1970
{quote} {image}
I stepped away from my PC for a few minutes to think about what you are doing, and came to the conclusion that I do not know enough about what you are doing to critique your approach. Funny how you posted this at the same time. My comments about your approach are from the perspective of my trading approach, where I put 1-2% of my margin account at risk per trade, usually with a 20-25 pip stop, and then adding to trades (to risk more) as the trading moves in my favor. So, under that kind of risk profile, I would not survive long with a 200 or 300 pip drawdown. I can see the merit of what you are doing if you keep exposure (per trade) very small, and you keep an eye on total exposure as you move along over time. But, then I'm not sure how you will ever make any money on such small exposure, but perhaps you've got that figured out, too. Good trading Samer.
  • #677
  • Nov 15, 2013 3:34pm Nov 15, 2013 3:34pm
Quoting big_pipin
678 replies about something so rudimentary? If you're not using a stop, you're not controlling your risk. Period. You're a delusional gambler that deserves to lose his money. #mindblown {image}
do you have headache " capitan " ?
unless you have 40% of your account to make your floating loss to swim in that space , "captain".
GUYS BE AWARE FROM HUNTING YOUR STOP LOSSES BY YOUR BROKER & BY "GHOSTS"
  • #678
  • Nov 15, 2013 3:35pm Nov 15, 2013 3:35pm
Quoting GEfx
{quote} I stepped away from my PC for a few minutes to think about what you are doing, and came to the conclusion that I do not know enough about what you are doing to critique your approach. Funny how you posted this at the same time. My comments about your approach are from the perspective of my trading approach, where I put 1-2% of my margin account at risk per trade, usually with a 20-25 pip stop, and then adding to trades (to risk more) as the trading moves in my favor. So, under that kind of risk profile, I would not survive long with a 200...
GUYS BE AWARE FROM HUNTING YOUR STOP LOSSES BY YOUR BROKER & BY "GHOSTS"
  • #679
  • Nov 15, 2013 3:39pm Nov 15, 2013 3:39pm
Quoting big_pipin
678 replies about something so rudimentary? If you're not using a stop, you're NOT controlling your risk. Period. You're a delusional gambler that deserves to lose his money. #mindblown {image}
yes it seems rudimentary, but I can tell you getting out of the market consistently when price reaches X number of pips beyond your entry (i.e. having a SL order in the market) is probably one of the most blunt instruments you can use. Sure it might earn you profits over-time, but if you can somehow reduce the risk you can increase your size. Mull over that for a bit and perhaps the issue of SL is not so rudimentary anymore.

One other approach is to exit the market using LIMIT orders (i.e. take profit) once price moves back in your favour, but you still close the trade at a loss (i.e. take profit at a small loss) -> this is what I believe BeginnerJoe is talking about when he says to DANCE with the market. He is entering orders on the opposite side, but it is the same thing if you simply close your trade.
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  • #680
  • Nov 15, 2013 3:43pm Nov 15, 2013 3:43pm
Quoting shellsnail
{quote} yes it seems rudimentary, but I can tell you getting out of the market consistently when price reaches X number of pips beyond your entry (i.e. having a SL order in the market) is probably one of the most blunt instruments you can use. Sure it might earn you profits over-time, but if you can somehow reduce the risk you can increase your size. Mull over that for a bit and perhaps the issue of SL is not so rudimentary anymore. One other approach is to exit the market using LIMIT orders (i.e. take profit) once price moves back in your favour,...

People are willing to take 10% drawdowns from having 5 2% losers, but when someone tells them that they can perhaps suffer a 10% drawdown momentarily to wait for those 5 trades to come to back break-even before closing they say that he/she is a gambler and is mad.

very logical indeed.

edit: before you start arguing that price might NEVER come back. perhaps the problem is not with price, but with your entry. If your entry is on breakout and it's a false breakout, then sure price might never come back - then you better have a SL. But if your price is based on sound market dynamics at over-extended areas when market participants reach extreme greed/fear in counter-trend moves, then maybe out of 100 trades, 1 will not come back - and you need to have a plan for that. But make no mistake, there's surely a way.
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