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Trading Without a StopLoss

  • #41
  • Apr 11, 2013 7:59pm Apr 11, 2013 7:59pm
Quoting Gumrai
Sorry about that, I promise to try harder to say something stupid in future
That's better!!
Doing what you like is Freedom. Liking what you do is Happiness.
  • #42
  • Apr 11, 2013 9:15pm Apr 11, 2013 9:15pm
Quoting Gumrai
If by "Hedge", you mean that you open a trade in the opposite direction, you do realise that it makes more sense to simply close the original position do you? You will also lose any advantage that you may have had from the carry. Some people are unable to accept losses and tell themselves that a trade is not a loser until it is closed You say that you trade with price action. Well holding a trade even when PA is telling you the opposite is not trading with PA, it is trading with hope.

WOW....someone else who has it bang on. Only post I have read of yours but your spot on. I batted heads with Nanningbob for yrs trying too explain this to him. His so called "recovery trading" which to his chagrin is just martingaling. Time and time again I told him he needs to re-evaluate his trading and his psychology as he has an obvious problem with accepting losses.. But he considers me a blowhard... yep one guy trades pennies ( bob) and I trade lots.

What most dont understand is scalability of a system/method...What may work for you with pennies does not mean it will work with trading full lots.
Thats another story as im getting sidetracked.

But like wut your saying Gumrai & BillyT
Master your Mind,,,Master the Market
  • #43
  • Apr 11, 2013 10:15pm Apr 11, 2013 10:15pm
I look at it as more of building a position and before the trade is even opened you know your levels of where you would get out and take profit. Whether you use a hard stop or not doesnt matter. You can never be perfect on entries and exits either so I find its too hard to use tight hard stops.
All posts are my personal opinion
  • #44
  • Apr 11, 2013 11:05pm Apr 11, 2013 11:05pm
There is a giant of a thread on this in the recycle bin.

Me personally i don't use a stop loss all the time and yes you'll get burned. My problem with SL is they always get hit then the market goes your way.
SO now mine are pretty large so when its hit yes it hurts. But that is trading.
  • #45
  • Apr 12, 2013 12:52am Apr 12, 2013 12:52am
I think this is getting more complicated then needs to be.
1. You are making a bet.
2. Decide at what point you are wrong.
3. You are either right or wrong.
4. If you are wrong, get out.
  • #46
  • Apr 12, 2013 12:53am Apr 12, 2013 12:53am
I tend to agree with Mr.KHO......its more of your personal experience.long as you know wen to cut loose. I personally,rarely use stops and i do use hedging to stay in positions until they are profitable.I have had bad experiences using stops. I discovered the secret is to never trade against the trend. But always remember the market is right..It might one day go against you abruptly.So be mentally ready.
  • #47
  • Apr 12, 2013 2:15am Apr 12, 2013 2:15am
Quoting tommbstone
There is a giant of a thread on this in the recycle bin. Me personally i don't use a stop loss all the time and yes you'll get burned. My problem with SL is they always get hit then the market goes your way. SO now mine are pretty large so when its hit yes it hurts. But that is trading.

Hi bud,,, If they always get hit that is a start which you need to develop,,, call it a ((retrace)) <<<<< not a retrace as a trader knows.. Or just get out then get back in ,in a favourable position...
SEE LINE,TRADE LINE..PRICE HAS TO GO SOMEWHERE,,, PRICE WILL GO SOMEWHERE.
  • #48
  • Apr 12, 2013 2:39am Apr 12, 2013 2:39am
Quoting ALThau
I think this is getting more complicated then needs to be. 1. You are making a bet. 2. Decide at what point you are wrong. 3. You are either right or wrong. 4. If you are wrong, get out.
Is there anyone making it big without stoploss. If yes, share with us how you are doing it.
  • #49
  • Apr 12, 2013 2:39am Apr 12, 2013 2:39am
Quoting tommbstone
......................... My problem with SL is they always get hit then the market goes your way...........
I hear this a lot and it does happen on occasion, but not always.
The truth is that when this happens, it sticks in your mind, stands out in your memory, so it seems to you that it happens more often than it actually does.

Think about it. If this always happens, then you have the perfect unbeatable trading method - Decide on your entry and SL and enter with a very small position. Then place a limit order at the same price as your SL with a larger position.
Impossible to lose if your SL is always hit, then the market goes your way.
Please Do Not PM Me With Coding Enquiries
  • #50
  • Apr 12, 2013 2:43am Apr 12, 2013 2:43am
It's essential to have some sort of stop-price or condition defined, but it's best to avoid placing stop-loss orders if possible, and use mental stops instead, because stop-orders are very vulnerable to market maker manipulation i.e. temporary spread widening to trigger the stops - a very common practise among MT4 brokers

Obviously mental stops are only possible if you're watching the trade closely.

One alternative is to use some sort of EA that closes the trade at market if the Ask falls below the stop level, or the Bid exceeds the stop level. Doing that gets around the brokers spread widening tricks.
  • #51
  • Apr 12, 2013 2:47am Apr 12, 2013 2:47am
Quoting Gumrai
I hear this a lot and it does happen on occasion, but not always. The truth is that when this happens, it sticks in your mind, stands out in your memory, so it seems to you that it happens more often than it actually does. Think about it. If this always happens, then you have the perfect unbeatable trading method - Decide on your entry and SL and enter with a very small position. Then place a limit order at the same price as your SL with a larger position. Impossible to lose if your SL is always hit, then the market goes your way.
Much more simple to examine why the SL is "always" getting hit.

1. Fear......probably due to an underfunded account or over-leveraged which is causing the SL to be placed too tight
2. Failure to understand how the particular currency pair involved actually moves so the SL placement is poor
3. Failure to learn how to use a SL properly

....and many other reasons.

If the SL gets hit "always".....and the answer is to therefore not have a SL......then that is no answer at all.....it is the top of a slippery slope to meet mister margin call.
Doing what you like is Freedom. Liking what you do is Happiness.
  • #52
  • Apr 12, 2013 2:48am Apr 12, 2013 2:48am
Quoting SM02
It's essential to have some sort of stop-price or condition defined, but it's best to avoid placing stop-loss orders if possible, and use mental stops instead, because stop-orders are very vulnerable to market maker manipulation i.e. temporary spread widening to trigger the stops - a very common practise among MT4 brokers Obviously mental stops are only possible if you're watching the trade closely. One alternative is to use some sort of EA that closes the trade at market if the Ask falls below the stop level, or the Bid exceeds the stop level....
Is there anyone trading rotational hedging? I made 27pips yesterday and now 36pips profit with no negative floating.
  • #53
  • Apr 12, 2013 2:50am Apr 12, 2013 2:50am
[quote=Gumrai;6598068]I hear this a lot and it does happen on occasion, but not always. The truth is that when this happens, it sticks in your mind, stands out in your memory, so it seems to you that it happens more often than it actually does. Think about it. If this always happens, then you have the perfect unbeatable trading method -


Hi bud,,, that is what i was getting at
SEE LINE,TRADE LINE..PRICE HAS TO GO SOMEWHERE,,, PRICE WILL GO SOMEWHERE.
  • #54
  • Apr 12, 2013 2:53am Apr 12, 2013 2:53am
[quote=SM02;6598080]It's essential to have some sort of stop-price or condition defined, but it's best to avoid placing stop-loss orders if possible, and use mental stops instead, because stop-orders are very vulnerable to market maker manipulation i.e.

you want to try trading oil using mental stops lol, you will hve no chance. i can see where your going though.
SEE LINE,TRADE LINE..PRICE HAS TO GO SOMEWHERE,,, PRICE WILL GO SOMEWHERE.
  • #55
  • Apr 12, 2013 2:53am Apr 12, 2013 2:53am
Quoting SM02
It's essential to have some sort of stop-price or condition defined, but it's best to avoid placing stop-loss orders if possible, and use mental stops instead, because stop-orders are very vulnerable to market maker manipulation i.e. temporary spread widening to trigger the stops - a very common practise among MT4 brokers .
Only with bucket shop brokers....and a properly placed SL is well outside the range of any broker to trigger. The above is just another one of those often repeated fairytales with no proof supplied to substantiate the claim. Polly want a cracker???
Doing what you like is Freedom. Liking what you do is Happiness.
  • #56
  • Apr 12, 2013 3:00am Apr 12, 2013 3:00am
Quoting realjumper
Much more simple to examine why the SL is "always" getting hit. 1. Fear......probably due to an underfunded account or over-leveraged which is causing the SL to be placed too tight 2. Failure to understand how the particular currency pair involved actually moves so the SL placement is poor 3. Failure to learn how to use a SL properly ....and many other reasons. If the SL gets hit "always".....and the answer is to therefore not have a SL......then that is no answer at all.....it is the top of a slippery slope to meet mister margin call.
Yes, you have addressed the SL getting hit part.
I was addressing the whole sentence "My problem with SL is they always get hit then the market goes your way"

If it were true, then obviously the level that he sets the SL at would be the perfect reversal point

The traders' paranoia that the "Market is out to get me!" syndrome
Please Do Not PM Me With Coding Enquiries
  • #57
  • Apr 12, 2013 3:00am Apr 12, 2013 3:00am
[quote=billytt;6598108]
Quoting Gumrai
I hear this a lot and it does happen on occasion, but not always. The truth is that when this happens, it sticks in your mind, stands out in your memory, so it seems to you that it happens more often than it actually does. Think about it. If this always happens, then you have the perfect unbeatable trading method - Hi bud,,, that is what i was getting at
Ah yes, get it now
Please Do Not PM Me With Coding Enquiries
  • #58
  • Apr 12, 2013 3:02am Apr 12, 2013 3:02am
Quoting Gumrai
Yes, you have addressed the SL getting hit part. I was addressing the whole sentence "My problem with SL is they always get hit then the market goes your way" If it were true, then obviously the level that he sets the SL at would be the perfect reversal point The traders' paranoia that the "Market is out to get me!" syndrome
Precisely!
Doing what you like is Freedom. Liking what you do is Happiness.
  • #59
  • Apr 12, 2013 3:53am Apr 12, 2013 3:53am
In this site, but I don't remember which thread and post it was: somebody wrote he has a friend at institutional trading company, who use always 10 pip TP and 90 pip SL.

I don't care if is true or not.

I just take a consideration building a system based on that idea.

In this case the 90 pip SL... is almost like 100 pip. If you have an 1:100 leverage at broker, than you don't need a SL , you have it always at 100 pip ( margin call)
You don't need to use the full available amount of money.

Example:
If you have an 1k account and the account leverage is max 1:100, than you can make a trading with maximum 100,000 units = 1lot. That is the maximum.
But if you want to risk only the 2% ( at 100 pip margin call) than your order size is 2,000 units, which is a most commonly accepted risk per trade. And you don't use SL ( you have a margin call, at any account)

I would use this system for 100-300 pip TP , not only 10, or a bit bigger amount of risk for 10 pip TP, around 35-50k units, but on that case need to watch the trade ( baby sit) and close it manually often at -20-40 pips, depends on momentum, support , resistance, your trading plan.

Hight reward is possible with high risk, and is hard to recover from 3x consecutive hard loses, need to find your plan and balance.

If your plan, trades has 50% win-lose ratio, than is easy to close the wrong trades, often you feel a little wrong, failed compared to next case.
If your plan, trades allows a lot of winning, a few loosing ones only, those loosing ( 10 vs 90 pip) will be hard, 3x consecutive fail has high impact on your equity curve and your morale. In this site I have read too: the fear of loosing money can be higher than fear from death. So take it seriously the 10 vs 90 pip trading plan, maybe isn't four you either.
I want to buy PATIENCE
  • #60
  • Apr 12, 2013 4:04am Apr 12, 2013 4:04am
Quoting matheszabi
In this site, but I don't remember which thread and post it was: somebody wrote he has a friend at institutional trading company, who use always 10 pip TP and 90 pip SL. I don't care if is true or not. I just take a consideration building a system based on that idea. In this case the 90 pip SL... is almost like 100 pip. If you have an 1:100 leverage at broker, than you don't need a SL , you have it always at 100 pip ( margin call) You don't need to use the full available amount of money. Example: If you have an 1k account and the account leverage...
I suggest that you take some time to learn about leverage and margin requirement
Please Do Not PM Me With Coding Enquiries
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