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  • #2,161
  • Feb 26, 2013 7:16am Feb 26, 2013 7:16am
Quoting bellieres

Dear Traders,

First of all we would like to remind that in Switzerland, client deposits are guaranteed up to CHF 100’000 and not up to CHF 50’000 contrary to what can be read on the previous page of this forum.

[left][left]Concerning order rejection, it is worth mentioning that rejection depends on market conditions and slippage tolerance set by clients. The higher is the slippage tolerance the higher is the probability of order execution. Gaps in the market, fast markets and/or lack...
Hi Bellieres,

nice to see Dukascopy people in here.

I was the one who took to FxFactory this matter of unfilled stop orders (cant't say if anyone elese had arisen this issue in here, but certainly on other public venues).

Thank you for your clarification on this.

I didn't send you guys an official inquiry because a trader friend of mine did, i wouldn't warrant 2 questions on the same issue at the same time.

I've been reading Dukas response from the support team, albeit slowly because it isn't in my native language...However, only here at the forum do we have a clarification as to how avoid those stop-turned-limit orders, the likes of which i had solicited the attention of the forum users.

I confess i was (by a friends advice) using the slippage in a rather unristricted fashion going up to 2 pips, which in my view is more than suficient to get filled on the forex market on vast majority of orders. The percentage of negative fills was greater than those filled.

With your explanation i will try placing orders w/ no slippage control.

As such, and in all honesty i will post here the results of this new method.

Is there not a way to stop JForex from converting the stop order into a limit order whilst using slippage control, more resembling Fill or Kill type of orders that you offer on the API?

Thanks,
  • #2,162
  • Feb 26, 2013 7:25am Feb 26, 2013 7:25am
Quoting Forexia
This can very well happen if your friend's allowed slippage points is very small and the order is not FOK so Duka just tries and tries to fill the order until the specified GTC time. The market order turning into a limit order is just showing you Duka's efforts in filling the order.
Hi Forexia,

sorry i missed your post.

Yes i completely understand why Dukas was converting stop orders into limit ones. No we know it was because there was a slippage control mechanism in place that is viewed as a GTC willingness of the client on getting filled.

What i don't understand is the amount of rejection on stop orders on very liquid market hours.


thx
  • #2,163
  • Feb 26, 2013 7:31am Feb 26, 2013 7:31am
Quoting shrike
'Inventory' means dealer position, not what you see quoted on a trading platform. Take jeuro's speculations with a healthy bit of skepticism.

Right on, i've concluded that he is way off the scheme of things.
  • #2,164
  • Feb 26, 2013 8:16am Feb 26, 2013 8:16am
Trading with Duka for over 3 years. They are well known for their rude customer service approach so don't talk to them and you'll be fine. Use other broker mt4 charts for indi's & ea's. Once had a 45 pip spread at mkt open which took me out of a NZD/USD position. Don't turn the platform off during the week, it can take ages to set up again. Don't expect a good fill during smart money manipulation. Slippage control is just a feature, don’t expect it to work. They are no better or worse than other brokers, that said, your money’s safe. Happy trading y'all
  • #2,165
  • Edited 2:44pm Feb 26, 2013 9:44am | Edited 2:44pm
Quoting Polkm

Is there not a way to stop JForex from converting the stop order into a limit order whilst using slippage control, more resembling Fill or Kill type of orders that you offer on the API?

Thanks,
I would imagine you would need to put in an extremely short GTC time when entering that Stop-Limit order so it almost becomes a FoK order IF JForex doesn't have capability for implementing FoK orders.

So far I find that order types on JForex is quite limited but I am still demo'ing so I might be able to find more features when I demo more.

Hope this helps
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #2,166
  • Edited 12:37pm Feb 26, 2013 9:59am | Edited 12:37pm
Quoting shrike
I don't think Dukascopy advertises with "no last look". "No requotes" is fine tho.

If both - technology and the policing of the last look provision - is not done the right way, these platforms are crap in my opinion, and especially so when you need reliability the most, for example filling a stop-loss order during an unforseen high impact event. Hotspot sacked half of their LPs last year for this reason - clients complained about high rejection rates too much. Now there are only a few last lookers left there, with limited privileges.
I went back to Dukascopy's website and you are absolutely RIGHT!!! They never advertised "no last look" and they didn't even advertise "no requotes". They just advertised "Instant execution" and "tight spread" and everybody in the market getting the same feed!! I never noticed that before. I just assumed that as long as you are an ECN broker, there shouldn't be any "last look's" and requotes. I am glad you pointed this out.

Having realized this, I just don't know WHY all of the ECN brokers out there cannot operate like Island for stock trading? For those of you who never daytraded stocks, Island is an automatic order-matching system. Its order book is completely open and everybody who sent limit orders to Island is listed there and if your order matches what's listed there, you get instantly filled and you get charged commission if you take away liquidity and you pay nothing if you put in liquidity. And everybody is anonymous on Island. So WHY can't there be one for Forex trading? A central order book with all the orders and everybody still anonymous and then everybody's orders just get instantly filled once it matches the price & quantity, albeit with higher commissions.

Of course I am digressing here. But I am glad you helped me understand Dukascopy and ECN brokers better. Thanks
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #2,167
  • Feb 26, 2013 10:09am Feb 26, 2013 10:09am
Quoting Polkm
No, you're misleading, and behaving (previously) like an advocate for Dukascopy, which is strange because i'm not bashing them. I am trying to find out if i can "station" my capital there.

The trading floor is not the correct term (my fault) as in a pit trading floor. I was refering to institutional interbank trading. They laughed at not being filled on such small orders (small for them of course).

happy now? the principal issue here: liquidity is there.

Stay focused and add serious info.

uff... far from being a Dukas advocate. . What I talk apply to all Banks.
Misleading??? Have no idea how.

I understand the issue is liquidity. But here also a lot of confusion of what actually means. The forex market "it is" a liquid market by nature.
meaning that if you own Euros, or dollars or want to buy any other currency, you can do it in between a pip or 2. and without changing the market or affecting the market. Just ck the definition in wiki or similar.

Many takes "liquidity" as more volume traded during business hours in UK and/or USA. In essence that is true but volume does not mean the orders come in balanced during these hours. So, when des-balance happens, The whole world change their quotes in trying to fill those orders. And if at that specific millesecond you also place an order, most likely yours and many other order around the world would not be filled at that price.

When you talk to your Pit trader friends again ask them if they trade spot. And how much is their volume. Also Ask them how they would place an order of over 10M ( if they ever had). You will be surprise of their answers.

J.
  • #2,168
  • Feb 26, 2013 6:32pm Feb 26, 2013 6:32pm
According to Dukascopy email, this month's average EU spread (European hours) is 0.46 pips. Sounds great....
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
  • #2,169
  • Edited 3:01am Feb 27, 2013 1:55am | Edited 3:01am
Quoting Forexia
WHY can't there be one for Forex trading? A central order book with all the orders and everybody still anonymous and then everybody's orders just get instantly filled once it matches the price & quantity, albeit with higher commissions.

Of course I am digressing here. But I am glad you helped me understand Dukascopy and ECN brokers better. Thanks

In a way that is what the "ECN" is . Sorof a anonymous Central order book (even that forex is completely des-centralized) were thousands of participants like Banks, our brokers etc, place orders for themselves or their clients. But I believe due to the high number of worldwide participants would be technically impossible to post (also) their internal books orders in there.

So very much this "Electronic Communication Network" gets only the order as "spot" orders. The ones that needs to be filled at that specific time from these thousand of participants. Perhaps million of orders show up in there every second and grabbed with same lightening speed. All with a slight different price (between a pip or 2) as each participant have different needs in their books.

I can only imagine that by the time any of us retail traders click our keyboard, order goes thru our broker system and up in the ECN as an individual order or as a block net order from our broker, the quotes and units that were available are already gone. And our would be matched with the ones that where clicking at the same time we did. So, no one knows what that orders composition is.

Sometimes I feel is almost a miracle that we do get filled between 1 pip from quotes in a continuous base.
That just show that forex market it is the most liquid market of the world. But occasionally we don't and we just
have to live with it.

Every single Broker out there, in some measure reflect these facts. I monitor some 6 major Brokers (for arbitrage). and very single one goes trough same weird moves at the same time and lose ability to fill orders at the same time.

J.
  • #2,170
  • Feb 27, 2013 12:19pm Feb 27, 2013 12:19pm
Quoting jeuro
In a way that is what the "ECN" is . Sorof a anonymous Central order book (even that forex is completely des-centralized) were thousands of participants like Banks, our brokers etc, place orders for themselves or their clients. But I believe due to the high number of worldwide participants would be technically impossible to post (also) their internal books orders in there.
Posting of their "internal" books is NOT required here. In Island, we don't see JPMorgan or Deutch posting all of what they have in their "inventory" nor expect them to and Island works perfectly fine. If they can do this for stocks, they can do it for Forex. Nothing different, just the instruments.

Quote
So very much this "Electronic Communication Network" gets only the order as "spot" orders. The ones that needs to be filled at that specific time from these thousand of participants. Perhaps million of orders show up in there every second and grabbed with same lightening speed. All with a slight different price (between a pip or 2) as each participant have different needs in their books.

Quote
I can only imagine that by the time any of us retail traders click our keyboard, order goes thru our broker system and up in the ECN as an individual order or as a block net order from our broker, the quotes and units that were available are already gone. And our would be matched with the ones that where clicking at the same time we did. So, no one knows what that orders composition is.

All us traders are looking for is to have our orders filled, that's it. Not that difficult. If a broker can't even do that, then they shouldn't be here. Can you imagine when George Soros wants to buy 50 million Euro and the broker tells him "Sorry uh Mr. Soros, uh by the time when you clicked your keyboard, order went through our broker system and up in the network as an individual order, the units that were available are already gone...". "Well can you fill me or not"? "Well Mr. Soros, uh no, your order is rejected." If they can accomodate a trade size of 50 million, they can accomodate a trade size of 50K.

Quote
Sometimes I feel is almost a miracle that we do get filled between 1 pip from quotes in a continuous base.
That just show that forex market it is the most liquid market of the world. But occasionally we don't and we just
have to live with it.

Every single Broker out there, in some measure reflect these facts. I monitor some 6 major Brokers (for arbitrage). and very single one goes trough same weird moves at the same time and lose ability to fill orders at the same time.

J.

Getting orders filled at the price displayed is NOT a miracle. We are not asking them to turn our water into wine here. Yes slippages do occur in fast moving markets and low volume periods, that's understandable but this is NOT what traders have issues with. It's getting filled constantly with slippages that has no reason or justifications to be there.
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #2,171
  • Feb 27, 2013 2:48pm Feb 27, 2013 2:48pm
I was just about to sign up to Dukascopy after messing about with the platform for a few weeks. And then I read the paragraph in the paperwork regarding conflict of interest and it just lists everything I thought a bucket-shop did, for some reason in my head I just thought DC routed trades to interbank and charged us a commission that's how they made thier money, now I'm reading about them being a counterparty etc etc

maybe I need to read up more on how brokers work before I hand some cash over

so maybe/probably I'm being an ignorant idiot but I'm feeling really gutted after reading this, maybe someone could explain it to me better, because how it stands I don't see how Dukascopy are going to be happy with me making any money, but then like I said I don't really understand how brokers work, all I have ever believed is to get a ECN broker.
  • #2,172
  • Feb 27, 2013 3:37pm Feb 27, 2013 3:37pm
Quoting Forexia
Posting of their "internal" books is NOT required here. In Island, we don't see JPMorgan or Deutch posting all of what they have in their "inventory" nor expect them to and Island works perfectly fine. If they can do this for stocks, they can do it for Forex. Nothing different, just the instruments.

Sure they could, but I am not sure I would like that. Even that could be money machine for arbitration if a broker would offer it. But in general everybody else would bitch about because the broker was "matching orders" and not send them out to the market. Also would to easy for the Broker place their own match buying from the spot and MM us in the process.


Quote
All us traders are looking for is to have our orders filled, that's it. Not that difficult. If a broker can't even do that, then they shouldn't be here. Can you imagine when George Soros wants to buy 50 million Euro and the broker tells him "Sorry uh Mr. Soros, uh by the time when you clicked your keyboard, order went through our broker system and up in the network as an individual order, the units that were available are already gone...". "Well can you fill me or not"? "Well Mr. Soros, uh no, your order is rejected."...

Yes, I agree, fills is what matters, but the Soros thing...ufff.. complete different scenario. A different era of semi-fixed rates. Soros just caught the British in a transition period of the rates impose by the ERM of the time. What happened apply only to speculation with currency that have fixed rates by their government. No one could repeat that again in the current market with floating rates currencies. If Soros or anyone would attempt to buy or sell any currency in those amounts, they would get exactly a "sorry" from the system. Or would be suicide like trying to massively buy CHF at 1.20. The Swiss would gladly fill you (no one else would) at around 1.18 to inmedietely devalue it to 1.20 or more.


Quote
Getting orders filled at the price displayed is NOT a miracle. We are not asking them to turn our water into wine here. Yes slippages do occur in fast moving markets and low volume periods, that's understandable but this is NOT what traders have issues with. It's getting filled constantly with slippages that has no reason or justifications to be there.

Yea.. I agree in this one. The "miracle" mention is more a flashbacks from when 6 pip spreads was the norm and a 1 or 2 minutes to get filled. .
Few brokers, dial up, very few using the ECN ... no one remember those times?
  • #2,173
  • Feb 28, 2013 3:56am Feb 28, 2013 3:56am
Quoting Nizdraw
I was just about to sign up to Dukascopy after messing about with the platform for a few weeks. And then I read the paragraph in the paperwork regarding conflict of interest and it just lists everything I thought a bucket-shop did, for some reason in my head I just thought DC routed trades to interbank and charged us a commission that's how they made thier money, now I'm reading about them being a counterparty etc etc...
At least they have stated how they will operate in the trading environment.

When you place a trade order you place it with your broker, you do not place it with HSBC, JP Morgan, ICICI, nor anybody else. Your broker accepts the order and reflects this in your account. If you order a large sum then your broker will probably secure a buyer electronically, or lay-off the amount with some other bank, because your broker is concerned about financial risk to themselves. If you request long for one lot in EU, and somebody else using the same broker requests short for one lot in EU, then your broker does not need to go outside to de-risk the trades until the point where one of the trades needs to be closed. That is simply sensible.

As mentioned above by Forexia, all you really want is reliable fills at the quoted price, or whatever your order specifies. If you will be trading several lots in one contract you will have to worry about the fill criteria, if you are trading 1 lot or less then in my experience you do not have to worry about that. You are trading against prices shown in your charts and nothing more than that.

As I wrote before, I am a very happy ex-customer and I will go back to Dukascopy when I decide to resume trading larger account values.
Carbon-Dioxide: the gas of life! https://youtu.be/ttJBdr6eBuo
  • #2,174
  • Feb 28, 2013 4:05am Feb 28, 2013 4:05am
Quoting Exodus
At least they have stated how they will operate in the trading environment.

When you place a trade order you place it with your broker, you do not place it with HSBC, JP Morgan, ICICI, nor anybody else. Your broker accepts the order and reflects this in your account. If you order a large sum then your broker will probably secure a buyer electronically, or lay-off the amount with some other bank, because your broker is concerned about financial risk to themselves. If you request long for one lot in EU, and somebody else using the same broker requests...
Thank you for the reply, certainly helps with my current learning of brokers and how they function. I like everything I have seen about DC so far and love the Jforex platform, and once I understand how this conflict of interest works then I will deposit some cash. Just the way I am I need to know why whenever I do business and I need to understand how the other party make money/benefit out of a deal which they certainly need to and have every right too then long term its a much more stable future if both parties can benefit.

Thanks again
  • #2,175
  • Feb 28, 2013 4:09am Feb 28, 2013 4:09am
Quoting Nizdraw
Thank you for the reply, certainly helps with my current learning of brokers and how they function. I like everything I have seen about DC so far and love the Jforex platform, and once I understand how this conflict of interest works then I will deposit some cash. Just the way I am I need to know why whenever I do business and I need to understand how the other party make money/benefit out of a deal which they certainly need to and have every right too then long term its a much more stable future if both parties can benefit.

Thanks again
You are most welcome, and doing your own research as you indicate is a very prudent thing to do. Good trading to you.
Carbon-Dioxide: the gas of life! https://youtu.be/ttJBdr6eBuo
  • #2,176
  • Feb 28, 2013 1:16pm Feb 28, 2013 1:16pm
Quoting Exodus
As mentioned above by Forexia, all you really want is reliable fills at the quoted price, or whatever your order specifies. If you will be trading several lots in one contract you will have to worry about the fill criteria, if you are trading 1 lot or less then in my experience you do not have to worry about that. You are trading against prices shown in your charts and nothing more than that.
Well after we got filled, we are also worried how the trade is being handled. Is it being closed prematurely because we are winning? If we have attached a stop-loss order, is it being taken out on purpose with an unwarranted spike in the price that didn't really happen in the market? All sorts of interesting things.

Yes, being a trader is fun.
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #2,177
  • Feb 28, 2013 1:31pm Feb 28, 2013 1:31pm
hello
this is a suggestion to dukascopy..
please make an option for web platform charts to customize the grid levels like the jforex platform
some traders want the grid levels on round numbers and use no indicators
the grid levels for the web platform are stupid and make no sense at all !
will you be kind enough to do it ? even for iphone platform.
sometimes i have to use the web platform from work.
I have no choice and sadly that what prevents me from opening a live account with you !!
I made a suggestion ages ago and nothing was done about it.
thanks in advance.
  • #2,178
  • Mar 1, 2013 2:24am Mar 1, 2013 2:24am
Quoting Forexia
Well after we got filled, we are also worried how the trade is being handled. Is it being closed prematurely because we are winning? If we have attached a stop-loss order, is it being taken out on purpose with an unwarranted spike in the price that didn't really happen in the market? All sorts of interesting things.

Yes, being a trader is fun.
...ah, you wag!

I see that you are determined skeptic.
I therefore recommend that you use a local broker with a large capital base and good traded volume; how about FXCM?
Carbon-Dioxide: the gas of life! https://youtu.be/ttJBdr6eBuo
  • #2,179
  • Mar 1, 2013 9:39am Mar 1, 2013 9:39am
Quoting Exodus
...ah, you wag!

I see that you are determined skeptic.
I therefore recommend that you use a local broker with a large capital base and good traded volume; how about FXCM?
No, no not a wag. A skeptic? Maybe but overall just trying to be a cautious trader. Got burned too many times in the past. And guess by who??? Yup, you guessed it!!! FXCM!!! So, no, not looking for a local broker atm.

Am demo'ing with dukas and thought dukas is different, being an ECN and all but after reading some of the comments here, I am starting to be cautious again.

Thanks for your input thou.
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #2,180
  • Mar 1, 2013 10:38am Mar 1, 2013 10:38am
has anybody had any problems with money withdrawals at dukascopy?
because some brokers tend to keep the traders money.
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