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Dukascopy

  • #2,141
  • Feb 25, 2013 10:02am Feb 25, 2013 10:02am
Hi, Has any one had any problems loading the MT4 bridge. Within 10 seconds of opening the strategies folder and opening the bridge, JAVA crashes. I have uninstalled and reinstalled JAVA but it has no effect. I have run it on a different PC slao running windows7 with no problem.
  • #2,142
  • Feb 25, 2013 10:08am Feb 25, 2013 10:08am

Dear Traders,

First of all we would like to remind that in Switzerland, client deposits are guaranteed up to CHF 100’000 and not up to CHF 50’000 contrary to what can be read on the previous page of this forum.

Concerning order rejection, it is worth mentioning that rejection depends on market conditions and slippage tolerance set by clients. The higher is the slippage tolerance the higher is the probability of order execution. Gaps in the market, fast markets and/or lack of liquidity during specific times such as news release may trigger rejects, depending on slippage tolerance.

Dukascopy does not replace stop orders by limit orders, except in one case: if the client has set a maximum slippage for his stop order (Stop - Limit order), and if the order cannot be executed within the maximum slippage predefined by the client. In such case, the order will be automatically changed into a limit order. This is done to protect the client’s interests. As a matter of fact, if the stop order may not be executed because of a market gap and/or too tight slippage tolerance, by switching the stop order into a limit order, Dukascopy allows the trade to be executed as soon as the market price will come back into the price range targeted by the client. When Dukascopy’s trading system switches the client’s order into a limit order, the limit order is set at the desired price adjusted by the amount of slippage tolerance set by the client (initial price plus or minus the slippage tolerance).

This being said, Dukascopy of course gives the possibility to clients to guarantee the execution of their stop orders. In order to allow execution of stop orders in all cases, clients shall not set any maximum slippage. In such case, stop orders are executed at the first executable price after the trigger. Therefore, it is in the hands of clients to define adequate stop order conditions to ensure order execution. However, in such case, clients shall accept that execution price may be much worse than the stop level.


You shall keep in mind that, in all cases, Dukascopy is bound by the slippage tolerance set by the client and cannot allow order execution with higher slippage than what was preliminarily accepted by the client.


Best regards,

Dukascopy Bank SA

  • #2,143
  • Feb 25, 2013 3:08pm Feb 25, 2013 3:08pm
Anyone know what to put in the "Place & Date" section of the dukascopy agreement? I've put Home lol but I have a feeling that is incorrect.
  • #2,144
  • Feb 25, 2013 3:21pm Feb 25, 2013 3:21pm
Quoting Polkm
Hi everyone,

I've just signed off for the day and since i was trading in an office w/ another dukas client i saw myself in a better position than him regarding these ridiculous order rejections on their part.

They keep rejecting multiple stop orders, replacing them w/ limit orders. Sometimes in faster markets, but in these last few days it was in slow markets (albeit w/ thin large orders around).

When i started w/ dukas i asked here what those rejections were: now i see i'm not the only one suffering from it. And this trader (my friend) has been...
Quoting bellieres


Dukascopy does not replace stop orders by limit orders, except in one case: if the client has set a maximum slippage for his stop order (Stop - Limit order), and if the order cannot be executed within the maximum slippage predefined by the client. In such case, the order will be automatically changed into a limit order. This is done to protect the client’s interests. As a matter of fact, if the stop order may not be executed because of a market gap and/or too tight slippage tolerance,...
So the lesson for today...

Read the manual and know your trading platform before starting panicking complaining wasting bytes and OUR time.

Thanks.

ps. Imo, you owe Dukascopy a apology..
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  • #2,145
  • Feb 25, 2013 5:00pm Feb 25, 2013 5:00pm
Quoting Exodus
Almost all my trades were market buy/sell/close and the executed price was never more than half a pip away; however when the price is jumping around a lot such as during the 5 minutes after NFP it is difficult to know what the real price is at any instant. My limit or stop buy/sell/close orders were either executed at the requested price or some other price that worked in my favor.

I can't refer to my platform settings anymore because I put most of my capital into stocks at the end of December. I think I had my slippage settings at 0.1 pip. It...
Ok thanks.
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  • #2,146
  • Feb 25, 2013 5:26pm Feb 25, 2013 5:26pm
Quoting jeuro
The higher we get in the forex trading scale, the more we see this. For some reason we do not seems

to understand that NO ONE has "inventory" of the currency we want to buy at the moment we place an order

and all depends of how much is placed for sale at the same time.
Quoting shrike
'Inventory' means dealer position.
Quoting jeuro
That is not inventory. The Broker does not own that money. Those are clients "orders". But are only the Broker's internal book orders.
Now imagine the thousands of participants around the world. All of them having completely different flow. What you see in one Broker or Bank volume may be the opposite in another. On top of that, Imagine that most orders around the world are at "market". Those do not even show up anywhere, they just appear at the moment someone clicks wanting to buy or sell something.

On top of that... orders are just...
But this still begs the question: What IS "Inventory"? In the first quote, it seems that inventory really plays a part in determining whether orders can be executed or not. And then when probed further as to what constitutes "inventory", the subsequent quotes keep rejecting this concept of "inventory" but without ever providing a definition of what is "inventory". It seems now that "inventory" does not exist. Which one is it? Is there such thing as "inventory" or not? If there is no such thing as "inventory" as suggested by the third quote above that brokers don't own any positions (which they shouldn't because otherwise they will be MM's) then what we see on the price display of the platform should be what we can trade against live, basically a "what you see what you get" and since there is no "requotes" or "last look", then WHY would there be rejected orders or even slippages if the price displayed there IS the market price and the available positions there is more than what we want to trade?

It's nice of Dukascopy to provide some clarifications regarding rejected orders and stop orders becoming limit orders, but this still does not explain why there will be rejected orders in the first place when the trade price AND size matches.
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  • #2,147
  • Feb 25, 2013 5:51pm Feb 25, 2013 5:51pm
Quote
then WHY would there be rejected orders or even slippages if the price displayed there IS the market price and the available positions there is more than what we want to trade?

It's nice of Dukascopy to provide some clarifications regarding rejected orders and stop orders becoming limit orders, but this still does not explain why there will be rejected orders in the first place when the trade price AND size matches.
Because you are not the only one.
Even if it seems so, im not a Dukascopy attorney, but..

In Germany there is a saying, "Who comes first paints first.."

Do you realy expect the exact price ?? In the Forex market?

Im sure, even their price feed lacks, i dont know 50 or more mili seconds i guess,
then our Internet connection, then the Servers also need time to proceed the Order

(i sold Servers. There is a difference if you have a AS400 or a Intel machine..
And the people always forget, Internet is NOT real time, close by, but..)

aso aso ....

I even did not set up the slippage thing. I dont care. plus minus 1 pip is ok even if i scalp.
I include that.

The clue is, to have more profitable trades than loosers

There is always some collateral damage as we know from..
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  • #2,148
  • Feb 25, 2013 6:21pm Feb 25, 2013 6:21pm
Forexia: 'inventory' is a term used in marketmaking and means dealer position. I dont know why jeuro brings it up - it has really nothing to do with this, and discussing it is moot, since i doubt anyone in here really has a clue about marketmaking techniques or the liquidity providers secret sauce in general.

Its also not possible to answer WHY your orders got rejected. Just note that your orders can be rejected at any time, for what ever reason. Your order can be rejected, even if the market does not move at all. The prices you see on your platform are not firm quotes - they are indicative only. If you don't like it, trade on exchange.
  • #2,149
  • Feb 25, 2013 6:22pm Feb 25, 2013 6:22pm
Quoting Toranaga
Because you are not the only one.
Even if it seems so, im not a Dukascopy attorney, but..

In Germany there is a saying, "Who comes first paints first.."

Do you realy expect the exact price ?? In the Forex market?

Im sure, even their price feed lacks, i dont know 50 or more mili seconds i guess,
then our Internet connection, then the Servers also need time to proceed the Order

(i sold Servers. There is a difference if you have a AS400 or a Intel machine..
And the people always forget, Internet is NOT real time, close by, but..)

aso aso...
Then the available positions would've refreshed to reflect that no? If there were previously 1 million units available at this price and 700K got taken, then the display would've refreshed to 300K for me and if I only need 100K, then I should be filled next?
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  • #2,150
  • Feb 25, 2013 6:28pm Feb 25, 2013 6:28pm
Quoting shrike
Forexia: 'inventory' is a term used in marketmaking and means dealer position. I dont know why jeuro brings it up - it has really nothing to do with this, and discussing it is moot, since i doubt anyone in here really has a clue about marketmaking techniques or the liquidity providers secret sauce in general.

Its also not possible to answer WHY your orders got rejected. Just note that your orders can be rejected at any time, for what ever reason. Your order can be rejected, even if the market does not move at all. The prices you see on your platform...
Ok that's what I thought and I agree. "Inventory" shouldn't really exist in ECN brokers because they shouldn't have positions of their own otherwise they will be considered MM's.

Well if what's displayed on the platform is NOT firm quotes, then ECN brokers like Dukascopy shouldn't qualify them with statements like "no requotes" and "no last look" or they are live tradable quotes if they are not really firm or tradable. And there IS "last looks" that may be required because those prices are indicative only. Then their tight spread is meaningless then because they are indicative only. Their displayed spread can be just 0.4 pips but they are only indicative; their tradable spread could be higher?

Can we have Dukascopy or anybody clarify this?
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  • #2,151
  • Feb 25, 2013 6:58pm Feb 25, 2013 6:58pm
I don't think Dukascopy advertises with "no last look". "No requotes" is fine tho.

Its my experience (with MBT and hotspot atleast) that they don't like to talk about the details of this stuff. Because, if you think about it, it makes a hell of a lot of a difference if a LP can sit on a client order for 500ms and then reject it, or only for say 20 ms. If you get a few rejections in a row that can add up, in fast markets price can run away and result in a really bad fill. In my opinion, for the last look model to work good (for clients), the technology infrastructure must be top notch (high performance software, trading servers and LPs in the same datacenter and so on) and the LPs must be kept on a tight leash. I.E. strictly limiting the time they are allowed to sit on client-orders before sending back a fill or a rejection. 500ms is basically a license to print money for a them.

If both - technology and the policing of the last look provision - is not done the right way, these platforms are crap in my opinion, and especially so when you need reliability the most, for example filling a stop-loss order during an unforseen high impact event. Hotspot sacked half of their LPs last year for this reason - clients complained about high rejection rates too much. Now there are only a few last lookers left there, with limited privileges.
  • #2,152
  • Feb 25, 2013 7:37pm Feb 25, 2013 7:37pm
Quoting Forexia
Then the available positions would've refreshed to reflect that no? If there were previously 1 million units available at this price and 700K got taken, then the display would've refreshed to 300K for me and if I only need 100K, then I should be filled next?
Yeah, but What is next.
Who knows exactly who is the next.


Common. You should know it better.
Nice example. There is 300K but there are another 156 Persons who want 100K.
Why you should be the next. Its a gamble.

Or ?
I know that from Stock traiding from the 90's.
There is often a Next before you are the next.

And the price in Forex is moving much much faster than in Stocks.
Thats why im glad with 0.5 - 1 pip slippage..

In quiet times..

ps. I noticed before, today on News, Italy elections

the spread was between 0.2 and 0.5

Glad finaly they make it.
I see it positive. That reduces the slippage lost also
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  • #2,153
  • Feb 25, 2013 8:16pm Feb 25, 2013 8:16pm
Quoting shrike
I don't think Dukascopy advertises with "no last look". "No requotes" is fine tho.

Its my experience (with MBT and hotspot atleast) that they don't like to talk about the details of this stuff. Because, if you think about it, it makes a hell of a lot of a difference if a LP can sit on a client order for 500ms and then reject it, or only for say 20 ms. If you get a few rejections in a row that can add up, in fast markets price can run away and result in a really bad fill. In my opinion, for the last look model to work good (for clients), the...
he he. If i could i would give you a voucher for this post. Exactly.

Plus
The simply offer and demand thing.
and whats 8 mil of Units if 500 customers want to have 0.1 or 1.0 Lots from it at that price.

As i know. 8 mil units are 80 Lots.
Only 80 Lots.

Some have to win and some to lose.

Again, that was a common thing trading stocks light years away.
Afterwards you write, 'yeah i was filled on the ask there was only 10 others and i was the first.

Have in mind one MM for one Stock.

Now thousands of MM ECNs and so one for one currency..
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  • #2,154
  • Feb 25, 2013 8:17pm Feb 25, 2013 8:17pm
Quoting Toranaga

Or ?
I know that from Stock traiding from the 90's.
There is often a Next before you are the next.

And the price in Forex is moving much much faster than in Stocks.
Thats why im glad with 0.5 - 1 pip slippage..
Yes that's called front-running which is not supposed to exist here. Everything is supposed to be first-come-first-serve with time priority only. No?
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  • #2,155
  • Feb 25, 2013 8:57pm Feb 25, 2013 8:57pm
Quote
Yes that's called front-running which is not supposed to exist here. Everything is supposed to be first-come-first-serve with time priority only. No?
Thats a Alice in wonder Land. I give it up. Nothing more to say. Thats forex and thats only a broker. One of hundreds.
Try a another Broker and write your experiences here.



ps. Even at Deutche Bank you will not find what you want.
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  • #2,156
  • Feb 26, 2013 12:22am Feb 26, 2013 12:22am
Quoting Forexia
Then the available positions would've refreshed to reflect that no? If there were previously 1 million units available at this price and 700K got taken, then the display would've refreshed to 300K for me and if I only need 100K, then I should be filled next?
If you watch the level 2 window the 'inventory' changes every time the price updates.
IMHO liquidity is not an issue except possibly at market open (Sunday 22:00 GMT).
I have never seen availability below 0.5 million (5 lots), so if you ask for one lot you are going to get it.

edit: the inventory is a list of outstanding orders, bids and offers.
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  • #2,157
  • Edited 2:34am Feb 26, 2013 2:11am | Edited 2:34am
Quoting Toranaga
So the lesson for today...

Read the manual and know your trading platform before starting panicking complaining wasting bytes and OUR time.

Thanks.

ps. Imo, you owe Dukascopy a apology..
Hi Toranaga,

I was the one who raised the matter of the Stop orders not being filled multiple times a day. I'll adress Dukas answer later on.

If it was let me say that that's an idiot remark and that you seem to be on a defense mode for Dukas, i.e. biased, and a posture of a cliché (as the french put it), and that you don't seem to grasp the significance and the consequences of orders not being filled. Your argument is not one of a serious trader, and your arrogance is child-like.

(I didn't contact Dukas, because my friends did. I haven't read their official answer which is why i didn't post any new info. I'll try the no slippage control and see how the fill's go.)

The Dukas response and explanation clarifies the system with which they operate (created by them) and is totaly valid in its mechanism, but still doesn't explain how on earth is there no liquidity. No liquidity on EU for standard lots whithin 1,5 pips, repeatedly? That's unheard of! So only if we give away slippage control do we have the better odds - which i confess it was a mechanism i used to insure being filled whithin an "normal" range, and it reveals it was exactly what was thwarting our intentions.

I dare you to go at a trading floor and place a trade - not an institutional large one, of course - on the EU on London session and not getting filled whithin a 1,5 pip. How many times will that happen? The pro traders whom i talked to laughed...


I bet most people here, me including and you also it seems, wasn't aware of the slippage control effect on non-market orders. So now by knowing this, everyone here and elsewhere, gained a lot of info, on a subjet matter that gets the silent treatment form many other brokers. Where is that waisting people's time you idiot. As for apoligizing: what's to apoligize?

Do everyone a favor and stop giving away remarks and opinions in sheep mode...
  • #2,158
  • Feb 26, 2013 4:12am Feb 26, 2013 4:12am
Quoting shrike
Forexia: 'inventory' is a term used in marketmaking and means dealer position. I dont know why jeuro brings it up - it has really nothing to do with this, and discussing it is moot, since i doubt anyone in here really has a clue about marketmaking techniques or the liquidity providers secret sauce in general.

Its also not possible to answer WHY your orders got rejected. Just note that your orders can be rejected at any time, for what ever reason. Your order can be rejected, even if the market does not move at all. The prices you see on your platform...
Hello Shrike.
The "inventory" I am talking about is not the technical term used in marketmaking. It is is in the context of accounting terminology.
Meaning the amount of an item/merchandise a company purchase and hold with the purpose of resale.

In other words, The Brokers or Banks do not have euros, dollars, yens. They simple exchange the clients orders. If
a Bank "purchase" some, in a mm style, it unload it inmedietely in a few milliseconds because of the risk involved.

You nailed right on regarding orders rejection. The bottom line is that. What we see are "quotes". If we like the quoted price we place and order
if gets accepted is a closed deal, if gets rejected , then is not.

To me, what gets annoying is that many get their mouth full talking about ECN, and dealing with Banks that do not MM and pass thru "all" orders to the market, bla, bla, bla... but at the same time, when convenient, all of a sudden you want them to "fill" "your" orders with their internal order flow and "not" send yours nor the other clients orders to the market.

J.
  • #2,159
  • Feb 26, 2013 4:21am Feb 26, 2013 4:21am
Quoting Polkm

I dare you to go at a trading floor and place a trade - not an institutional large one, of course - on the EU on London session and not getting filled whithin a 1,5 pip. How many times will that happen? The pro traders whom i talked to laughed...
Do everyone a favor and stop giving away remarks and opinions in sheep mode...

Seriously??? Who trades "spot" forex in the trading floor? Maybe that is what they laugh about.

J.
  • #2,160
  • Feb 26, 2013 4:46am Feb 26, 2013 4:46am
Quoting jeuro
Seriously??? Who trades "spot" forex in the trading floor? Maybe that is what they laugh about.

J.
No, you're misleading, and behaving (previously) like an advocate for Dukascopy, which is strange because i'm not bashing them. I am trying to find out if i can "station" my capital there.

The trading floor is not the correct term (my fault) as in a pit trading floor. I was refering to institutional interbank trading. They laughed at not being filled on such small orders (small for them of course).

happy now? the principal issue here: liquidity is there.

Stay focused and add serious info.
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