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Attachments: Hi! I’m Mr Short and I’m a bad forex trader! (the AA for bad traders)
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Hi! I’m Mr Short and I’m a bad forex trader! (the AA for bad traders)

  • Post #21
  • Quote
  • Edited 11:53am Feb 6, 2013 10:22am | Edited 11:53am
Really, you've identified your problem in the diagram in your first post. You follow your strategy, win, change it and everything goes downhill from there.

So stick to the strategy. Easy to say, difficult to do.

I found the attachment in this post useful, it's about discipline and consistency. I particularly like point 22 about being a bricklayer.

An interesting book on dealing with the emotional side is "The Chimp Paradox; The Mind Management Programme for Confidence, Success and Happiness" by Dr. Steve Peters. It's not about trading but gives a model for managing your impulses. Peters has had a lot of success with athletes and developing a winning frame of mind.

Anyway best of luck!
Too tired to argue. Too old to care.
Quoting MrShort
Let me tell you guys…

This is a painful thread to start. But considering my trading biography I think I am morally obligated to propose this little round table. It might be provocative for some, for me (and I hope for other rookies too), it’s somehow cathartic. So, bear with me fellow traders!
These last few days, using Tim Wilcox’s “trading plan template”, I objectively came across with some personal difficulties that might be permanently impeditive to the possibility of success. Also considering that (they say) 90 to 95% of traders fail to be...


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Quoting Seneca pilot
I'll add a little controversy.
Part of the reason you keep blowing up is precisely because you are not risking any money...
Quoting foxybunny
Totally agree with Seneca on needing to risk real money.
If Mr Short been just playing demo for last 4-years, you cannot call yourself a forex trader yet.
Better to change the title of this thread to like bad demo trader.
Quoting mr.kho
the demo is nice/fine if you can impose and thought or regard as real money
but rarely can people do something like that if she/he was never get hit / biting before
sorry if my comments make you uncomfortable
salaam
Thanks for your feed-back guys. Definitely food for thought!

I agree with you. I give myself to the luxury of not keeping my disciplined because I don't have any money on the line! I've been thinking about it for some time now... my test field is too artificial to make it work. I'll try to put aside a couple of hundreds to get it real!

Thank you very much for your insights fellow traders!

Cheers.
Quoting Mike Haran
Hi chap,

firstly trading is not hard, the hard part is reading all the rubbish that comes with trading. The more complex and clever you are the more complex you make trading,

Mike Haran
Thank you for your tips Haran.

I agree with you. Simplicity might be the solution.

I can honnestly tell you that I'm really up for simplicity. I trade a simple trendline system. No use for indicators and my results are grossly brake-even.

I'll keep it simple my friend.
Quoting taomql4


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mx3AD9VmN9k

LOL! Thank you very much my friend. I feel you!

Quoting AM BiH
Admitting that one is bad trader is big step in becoming good trader! Kind of paradox.
Thanks AM BiH! Thats kind of you to say. I'm trying to get that paradox work in my favor!

cheers
Quoting MrShort
LOL! Thank you very much my friend. I feel you!

You 're welcome .. And oh btw , it doesn't really matter If you are playing with real or Fake money , If You are going to use the same system , then expect the same result ..

Maybe , You can give Sam Seiden Webinars a chance -

Always good to know why and how Price moves on your charts..

SUPPLY & DEMAND ZONE....( My comfort zone..)

http://www.fxstreet.com/search/contr...&contenttype=w

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Quoting davidb
Really, you've identified your problem in the diagram in your first post. You follow your strategy, win, change it and everything goes downhill from there.
So stick to the strategy. Easy to say, difficult to do.
Quoting ~bull.bear~
In fact, now I become more cautions and comfortable with my trade now. I think logically and rational with plan, take whatever is it (Win is winning, lose is losing). There is no more chasing market, no more staring at the PC all the time. 2 important concepts that change me, discipline will lead me to correct outcome, 2nd concept is if there is a risk, so does have a reward, not necessary to earn big in short time (There is no such things if does not have high leverage/intrinsic value), this is the concept of balancing.
Take some free time to...
Quoting Bilstein
I noticed that we - at some point or another - inherently want to make trading this grand mystery wrapped in an enigma.
"Wow, I have to look at 10 different indicators just to feel good about my trade. If I had to do this every day for a major company, would I really have time to sit here and read a dozen indicators before making a decision or would I be expected just to trade the damn market and lose as little money as possible?"
Geez, I look back at some of my screen shots from when I first started trading and I just go


Thanks for your answer guys. That’s true... easier said than done!

If I analyze my problem more thoroughly I can identify a very specific issue:

I use a very simple trendline strategy. No more, no less. Very clean, no indicators, no complexity. The issue comes from the fact that there is a certain amount of subjectivity with my entries and exits. With my strategy I don’t have an objective entry/exit signal.
That subjective decision making during my entries and exits makes me extremely doubtful. Then my problems begin. If the trade becomes a loss, I go from doubt to skepticism and I lose grounds.

They say that trading is a skill. Should I try to get a mechanical system? But if I do so, were does the skill part comes in?
I guess trading is somehow paradoxal. We should be objective on our observation of a very subjective environment. That’s why we say that we should trade what we see, not what we want you think/expect/believe!

Cheers!
So this defines a bad trader. Then, what does constitute a good one?

You have never met a successful forex trader in person. Have you met a bad one?

Including my professional and personal life, I'm at least acquainted with at least a couple thousand people. No, they're not all close friends but I do talk to them.

Out of all of them, one knows what forex is. She is currently not trading and is focusing on her new baby.

One person out of whatever number of people I know.

But what constitutes a good trader? Many have a romanced vision of what success is. But that measuring stick is not the same for everyone.

If someone overcomes a challenge in their trading, maybe they achieved success already?
Not all sins are created equal
Quoting Jay Walker
So this defines a bad trader. Then, what does constitute a good one?

You have never met a successful forex trader in person. Have you met a bad one?

...

One person out of whatever number of people I know.

But what constitutes a good trader? Many have a romanced vision of what success is. But that measuring stick is not the same for everyone.

If someone overcomes a challenge in their trading, maybe they achieved success already?
Hi Jay,

I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say. Yes, I have met some bad traders in person.

When I'm defining a bad trader I'm defining someone which is not statistically consistent in the long term because of his mistakes against the strategy he defines.

That is me and this thread is my contrition

Cheers!
I commend you on your honesty and your ability to at least see where you are going wrong. Not going to add anything because I think Mike Haran has 'summed it up', except to warn you against throwing more money at it - please don't. That is totally the wrong approach. You're a clever man, and I hope logical - so if you can't follow a defined strategy with a small amount, you certainly won't with a larger amount - the emotions WILL multiply exponentially - I can guarantee that.

If anything, go the other way, see if you can become profitable on a demo - if you're serious about this - do it for three months. Then have another go with a small real money account. When you do it right, even small accounts will grow fast.
I've got my pips - go get yours!
Some more of the same...

Between total randomness and predictability lies true market behavior. Some academics say it’s a blind walk, some traders (specially the rich ones) say the market has logic that can be used to the traders advantage. I, myself, don’t know much about it. But from an enthusiast point of view we could ask a whole different question:

What is more advantageous - to believe the market is random or to believe the market is predictable?

The problem with believing market is predictable is the buildup of expectations! With expectations comes the frustration of seeing those expectations not being fulfilled and frustration settles hard and painfully. From that personal point of view, I believe it is wiser to look at the market as a random series of events, totally unpredictable and totally uncontrollable.

If what I just said is not true… it doesn’t matter. What matters is the possibility of living comfortably with a beast that bites you in the bottom every time you look at the horizon! Comfort… that’s an interesting word to use when discussing trading! So, the important thing is not to guess but to act according to a set of criteria… let’s use that word too, CRITERIA!

What about CRITERIA?

A set of criteria for entries and exits establishes the rules for behavior and decision making. Where there are criteria, there is attention and restrained decision. Where there are criteria, there are actions with the least amount of expectation possible. If the trade fails, it is not the trader who takes the hit… it is the criteria who it is to blame! Trading that way stops being a “personal thing”… it’s a matter of criteria!

What’s the problem with EMOTIONS?

When trading is about the traders gut feeling it gets emotional! The desire to get it right or of being smart, the will to get it back from the market if there’s a loss, the despair that leads the trader to quit when he should be getting at it one more time! I think the problem with emotions is not the fact that we get impulsive. What’s the problem of an impulsive trade in a random game like the market? The market doesn’t care if you carefully planned your trade or if it was a snap-shot. From my point of view, the problem with emotions is that you lose the capability of establishing the right value of a loss or a win. You lose the notion of a BIG PICTURE, of long term gains against short term losses. Emotions transform the trader into a MAN ON THE EDGE and there is when things get really messy. We should never underestimate the man on the edge capability of self sabotage! A man on the edge wants to jump of the cliff to end his suffering!

Back to CRITERIA!

I think it is relatively coherent if I say that all trading criteria are retrospective in nature. I mean… all systems are based on past events. That (I think) doesn’t gives us any hedge over the future events. But that takes emotions out of the game! With the use of a well established set of criteria we don’t get more predictability, we get less self destructive! And that is, fellow traders, by itself, a jackpot solution!

To the conclusions (metaphorically speaking)!

1. Get a set of criteria to get in and get out of your trades.
2. Use those criteria to trade 50 times.
3. Look at your P&L statement. If it’s green, go for more 50 trades. If it’s red, reevaluate your set of criteria!
4. Don’t follow my advice at any time!

Cheers!
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Quoting BackTestDummy
I commend you on your honesty and your ability to at least see where you are going wrong. Not going to add anything because I think Mike Haran has 'summed it up', except to warn you against throwing more money at it - please don't. That is totally the wrong approach. You're a clever man, and I hope logical - so if you can't follow a defined strategy with a small amount, you certainly won't with a larger amount - the emotions WILL multiply exponentially - I can guarantee that.

If anything, go the other way, see if you can become profitable on a...
I'm gonna back up the dummy here - If you can't demo trade sucessfully you absolutley will not trade profitably live. If you can demo trade sucessfully then you will probabely still fail to trade sucessfully live.

I'll go against a what a lot of folks here say and say that demo trading is an essential tool in learning to trade - not for the fact it saves you money when you're loosing initially but its imperative to be able to split the two requirements of a successful trader apart - the edge and the physcology.

Demo trading will tell you if your 'system/method/ethos' has an edge - trading live will tell you if you have physcological issues.

When you can trade demo sucessfully then move into live trading. When you fail at that point like 95% do then you KNOW its physcological and you can search in that area to move forwards to profitability sound in the knowledge your edge is valid.

Breaks the whole adventure up into smaller bite sized chucks

BBCMicro
Quoting MrShort
Hi Jay,

I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say. Yes, I have met some bad traders in person.

When I'm defining a bad trader I'm defining someone which is not statistically consistent in the long term because of his mistakes against the strategy he defines.

That is me and this thread is my contrition

Cheers!
You are calling yourself a bad forex trader. But your definition of bad may not be the same as others. To some, you may be considered a good trader.

The definition of bad/good, success/failure may differ from one person to the next.

If you so much as acknowledge your shortcomings as you're doing with this thread, that makes you more successful than many.
Not all sins are created equal
Quoting Jay Walker
You are calling yourself a bad forex trader. But your definition of bad may not be the same as others. To some, you may be considered a good trader.

The definition of bad/good, success/failure may differ from one person to the next.

If you so much as acknowledge your shortcomings as you're doing with this thread, that makes you more successful than many.
Thank you Jay.

I really appreciate your words.
Cheers!
Quoting MrShort
Let me tell you guys…
The bad news is people with your type of psychological makeup are drawn to markets like moths to a flame. Which is unfortunate due to your/their self-destructive nature.

The good news is that if you survive you will be compensated, not only with monetary gains, but a new perspective in life. Which is far more valuable in my opinion.

p.s

Consider that last 4 years as the amount of time it took you to become conscious of your ailment. Now it's time to work the 12 step. Hang in there long enough, and it's yours.
Hi Mr Short,
Great post (and all the other guys). I feel your pain, i have been through it myself in the past, so often. The only words of encouragement i can offer are that if you stick with it (i agree you should risk some real money, even 1 micro lot) you WILL get it. Took me five years, it may take you less, or more, but if you are serious about finding the answers, you will, and you will become successful. It is not half as difficult as most people make out. The biggest problem IMO is that there are simply too many ways to do this and probably all of them work to some degree of success, but this of course creates confusion. Which one do you choose? So people chop and change from one system to the next. You need to identify one method which suits YOUR personality, your emotions, your temperament. Having done that establish some basic ground rules, the obvious things like SL, TP etc and then stick to the rules (your rules) whatever happens, even if that means set it and forget it, just walk away from it until it has played out, win or lose. Once you do this you will be amazed how confident you will feel about your trading and how profitable you can be, once you don't interfere with it. Getting into a trade is simple but MM once in the trade is everything. Very entertaining post and i wish you every success with your trading.
Mingary, is this graphic yours? I'd like to use it on my FB profile.

Quoting Mingary
This is the way I do it:
Very good read; most new traders would see something in common there.
Quoting MrShort
My frailties:
1. I’m arrogant: I always believed I’m intellectually superior. I always believed there is no problem I couldn’t solve. If I think it, it must be right!
Those guys are the ones who get humbled by market very quick. After my 1st day of lucky profits, i still remember my 2nd DAY of "how-can-i-be-wrong" trading & quick market-humbling dose. CHANGE
Quoting MrShort
2. I’m skeptic: I have a very hard time believing other fellows systems and strategies. At the first sign of trouble I have a tendency to disbelieve the system. At that moment I lose control.
Those guys are the ones who don't ADAPT & after some time hop from 1 system to another. CHANGE
Quoting MrShort
3. I’m obsessive: If I fail I tend to keep at it until it hurts. And I like to have the feeling I can control all the variables. Considering the randomness of this business you might imagine what being a control freak means… total psychological disruption! In the end I just lose my confidence real easy!
Those guys are the ones who hold on to losing positions/bias until market says "I-am-always-right" for the first time (and then again (& again....)). CHANGE
Quoting MrShort
4. I hate to lose. I must be the best at all times. I want to chase the markets to recover losses.
Those guys are ones who lose once >come again >lose again >and the cycle goes on. CHANGE
Quoting MrShort
5. I’m emotionally labile: When winning I become an arrogant jackass, when losing I become clinically depressed. What a fruit cake!
Many guys in early trading career eat the same fruit cake(nice analogy) Trading is more about Emotion management than a profitable strategy. CHANGE


Get RID(/fix) of all of them else RID yourself off the markets.
100 Fold Challenge->Interested? ->https://www.forexfactory.com/thread/32152
Quoting Mike Haran
Hi chap,

firstly trading is not hard, the hard part is reading all the rubbish that comes with trading. The more complex and clever you are the more complex you make trading, its you making trading hard when in reality its easy, if you know what to do. Like any business you need to get help to start, many traders think that this is one business where the doors to the bank open and yet you don't have to know how to do it. Wrong


There are two ways to learn how to trade

1) Spend 5-7 years looking at charts and figuring it out.
2) Read all the...

Excellent post!
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