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If it's such a great system, why isn't there a Trade Explorer attached?

  • #141
  • Feb 16, 2013 12:00pm Feb 16, 2013 12:00pm
Quoting P.Dean
Whether people fear to be or not be a loser but more importantly they fear of following a loser or false pathway for too long or more then enough.. this is more related to life at ff then challenging the whole humans mind process. change of psychology comes when you see real performance of at least some what proven system to begin with. Have the capability options to dig in on ones own term. A thread without TE does not provide a such but thread with TE does. Obviously one should not follow a explorer blindly, its just commonsense.. has to put the...
Sorry fella, thats a right load of bull there!


the struggle you might be having trading is nothing to do with threads on FF, its in your head,

Like i have said many times, if you are worried about following a losing system, test the last 100 trades... but you wont do that because then you will know the reason you are losing... because of yourself.... so your brain continues to fool you, to protect you from the truth...

If the system is too complicated to test... then its bullshit...

Ask anyone who works at a trading bank or a fund, ask them what their systems are based on... its all simple strategies with clever risk management... thats all...

Stop hiding behind other results and get on with trading I say
tradewith60
  • #142
  • Feb 16, 2013 12:52pm Feb 16, 2013 12:52pm
Quoting 60minuteman
the struggle you might be having trading is nothing to do with threads on FF, its in your head,
If the system is too complicated to test... then its bullshit...
Ask anyone who works at a trading bank or a fund, ask them what their systems are based on... its all simple strategies with clever risk management... thats all...
60,

I don't disagree with you, but.........

Can you explain what you mean by "simple strategies" and "clever risk management"?

Moving average crossover is a simple strategy.

Suitable risk management might involve risking a consistent X% equity per trade, and employing a suitably placed stoploss, to cut losses before they get out of hand.

Trade management might involve trailing the stoploss at a suitable distance, to let winning trades prosper. Or a TP that ensures trades whose RR meets any specified requirement.

"It's in your head" can be obviated by coding all of the above into an EA. Then we have consistent, flawless, disciplined, emotion-free, around-the-clock execution.

If only it was that easy, to create a simple EA that guaranteed a lifetime of consistent profit. We'd all be forex millionaires. The banks and funds could save themselves many 6 and 7-figure salaries, by dismissing all of their analysts, mathematicians, traders and IT gurus, and replacing them with the same primitive EA, something along the lines of the one I described.

Markets ultimately consist of willing buyers and willing sellers. If, then, (hypothetically speaking) every heavyweight speculator ran the same EA, then obviously the market character would change accordingly. The 'smart money' would then find another way of beating the EA's algo, creating a new 'optimal' strategy. This would ultimately evolve into a paper-rock-scissors kind of battle. That's not unlike what we have facing us now: to find out how the 'smart money' outwits the 'dumb money', or (if we're technical analysts) some non-randomness in the price patterns and behavior that results from this process.

It's my view that the most robust strategies, however "simple", somehow recognize and exploit underlying drivers of price: e.g. macroeconomics, money flows, levels of supply and demand, orderflow, breakouts during times of high liquidity, tracking central bank/heavyweight activity, self-fulfilling prophecy, news outcomes, fading extreme overboughtness/oversoldness, trapped trader behavior, and no doubt many others that I'm unaware of.

Hence, summarizing all of the above: The problem, as I see it, is that EAs (or at least the vast majority of them) fail, simply because they aren't intelligent or adaptive enough. But that is a strategy-based, rather than a risk management or psychological, issue.

That's why I believe it's important to clarify what is meant by "simple".

David
  • #143
  • Feb 16, 2013 2:17pm Feb 16, 2013 2:17pm
Quoting hanover
60,

I don't disagree with you, but.........

Can you explain what you mean by "simple strategies" and "clever risk management"?

Moving average crossover is a simple strategy.

Suitable risk management might involve risking a consistent X% equity per trade, and employing a suitably placed stoploss, to cut losses before they get out of hand.

Trade management might involve trailing the stoploss at a suitable distance, to let winning trades prosper. Or a TP that ensures trades whose RR meets any specified requirement.

"It's in your...

David its true, trading can be simple for a brain but vastly complicated to code...

If you dont know how to read the cycles of price movement up and down the TF's then you're at a dis-advantage straight away, if you do, then the actual entry and exit strategy is simple.

trying to think of an eloquent way to explain.....

try writing down how to hit a golf ball....difficult, showing someone in person, easier..... getting good at it... takes practice...

Watching someone good playing golf will not make you a better golfer though im afraid
tradewith60
  • #144
  • Feb 16, 2013 2:17pm Feb 16, 2013 2:17pm
Quoting 60minuteman
Sorry fella, thats a right load of bull there!


the struggle you might be having trading is nothing to do with threads on FF, its in your head,

Like i have said many times, if you are worried about following a losing system, test the last 100 trades... but you wont do that because then you will know the reason you are losing... because of yourself.... so your brain continues to fool you, to protect you from the truth...

If the system is too complicated to test... then its bullshit...

Ask anyone who works at a trading bank or a fund, ask them...
your completely missing the point here.. we are talking about a fella coming to FF or any other site trying to learn a thing or two. The question is.. a thread based system with TE or without TE would serve more benefit or not.
I am saying the one with TE helps more than the one without or at least it won't do a harm. that's all.
Your going off into concepts that its beyond the scope of this thread and OP's questions or concern.

anyways, your right you win brother, peace.

Have a nice weekend.
  • #145
  • Feb 16, 2013 3:04pm Feb 16, 2013 3:04pm
Quoting P.Dean
your completely missing the point here.. we are talking about a fella coming to FF or any other site trying to learn a thing or two. The question is.. a thread based system with TE or without TE would serve more benefit or not.
I am saying the one with TE helps more than the one without or at least it won't do a harm. that's all.
Your going off into concepts that its beyond the scope of this thread and OP's questions or concern.

anyways, your right you win brother, peace.

Have a nice weekend.
i still disagree with your core belief that it wont do any harm... Where is the trader left when he follows the thread with a excellent TE but he still loses? all he has learnt is to believe in others and look for shortcuts..
tradewith60
  • #146
  • Feb 16, 2013 4:25pm Feb 16, 2013 4:25pm
[quote=Seneca pilot;6399961]Good post.
and there is no chance that I will EVER put even an investor password into cyberspace I don't care what the encryption Is .


This is the real reason anyone with an ounce of common sense will not put up a trade explorer.......
  • #147
  • Feb 17, 2013 1:55am Feb 17, 2013 1:55am
Quoting Gumrai
One could also ask "Why does a trader post his system in the first place?"
I can't speak for anyone else, but I am just paying back to the community that helped me when I was losing my way.

Quoting Gumrai
How does he benefit personally by doing so?
The 'benefit' is in seeing others profit..that is very satisfying. Of course not all who try a given system will profit, some will find their niche in another system.


Quoting Gumrai
Sure there may be some who are only trying to help others.
The majority


Quoting Gumrai
Some maybe instigating a scam.
A tiny, tiny minority



Quoting Gumrai
But for some, it's because they want to be seen as forex Gurus. They seek the anonymous fame that they get when instantly elevated to the status of a SuperTrader in the forum. They can perpetuate this illusion of being a SuperTrader by continually posting all their winning trades after they have closed them. Of course, these people won't link a trade explorer because they would then be unable to fantasy trade.
Now your getting into fantasy land. How do you know how they might want to be seen by others?

How do you know that these people seek "anonymous fame?"

How do you know that their winning trades posted after they are closed are fantasies?

A while back you mentioned to me that I keep repeating the same thing. Here's a news flash for you......you keep on and on and on and on about the same thing. It has been explained to you many, many times.

You say that "Of course, these people won't link a trade explorer because they would then be unable to fantasy trade".......so in your bitter and cynical world, by your definition you are saying that people who won't link a TE to their personal account must fantasy traders. Grow up.

Further, the very thing you keep crying about is that you think that some.....no.....most people are wannabe guru's who won't prove themselves because the won't use a TE. How is that different form a wannabe guru who surfs from thread to thread to thread to thread dispensing advice and (mostly) criticism to other people, without actually producing any credentials of his own?

Hello pot.....meet kettel
Doing what you like is Freedom. Liking what you do is Happiness.
  • #148
  • Edited 7:19am Feb 17, 2013 2:50am | Edited 7:19am
Quoting 60minuteman
i still disagree with your core belief that it wont do any harm... Where is the trader left when he follows the thread with a excellent TE but he still loses? all he has learnt is to believe in others and look for shortcuts..

That's fine buddy we do not have to agree and its about open exchange of opinions and views which leads to good things in different ways and forms for each individual.

If you don't mind i will make one more humble effort to explain my side.

Ok so.. wouldn't the something and worse go for TE-less thread as far as "Harm" goes?.. where is the trader left when follows a thread with excellent teaching and still loses?.. you see you still got the same problem with a simple thread. The added transparency to that excellent teaching will do harm?!!..
the use of TE is not solely for the purpose of proof.. its far from that.. its about giving the liberty to an user to make its own assumption and conclusion about ones offerings.

Lets just say one is left with two harm-able options! but one presents less harm, if you had to make a choice between the two which one would you use?.. The fact is a logical user comes here and flip through threads looking for the best knowledge or ideas.. and the added transparency wouldn't hurt but to add positive incentive. Why? simply they will benefit more from the one that shows every details about each trade that actually does take place to parallel the system presented by it's OP, it provides credibility (humans mind accepts that a lot easier and opens up to receiving because doubts ringing on back of his mind is removed).. vs the one with excellent talks but make believe actions.. we give the benefit of the doubt to OP's intentions at this point assuming he is a fair citizen otherwise that would be revealed along the way too, which is important to most.

One example and i am done.. crossing my fingers to not be told back it's a load of you what again..lol

If Tiger Woods come and says every one of my golf swing is excellent and breaks it down to every detail with excellent honest teaching but never to live play one under pressure and makes all his excellent swings in his backyard court for his own.. would that help you? I'll say for the sake of great honest teaching it would help you.
now, if dear Tiger comes this time around and adds the live play by showing up on TV for tournies and executes the same sweet golf swings preached but under pressure in consistent manner for period of time.. now, would that provide harm!! and not help you even more? I'll say it's safe to say it would not harm and it should help even more to say the least.. not so much that "he can do it so can I", but perhaps turns a positive switch in humans mind for better understanding, absorbing, receiving of material offered, and switches excitement in looking ahead to well planning of forward progress.. because now he has seen both, the great teaching and the live executions there is no doubt to hold back when especially the adversity arrives, easier time to stick with it and handle it and to grow from it.
NOW, whether tiger stinks or aces it should not matter to a logical person.. what matters is that he was fully transparent along with his excellent teaching, so gave the people the choice at liberty to take what they could at face value.

I am done, thank for your patience.


Have a great remaining weekend everyone.
  • #149
  • Feb 17, 2013 2:53am Feb 17, 2013 2:53am
RealJumper,
you use the term crying and crybabies a lot.
I am not crying or being a crybaby in my posts, I am simply stating my opinion.
When I see people post 90% + winners with R:R of less than 1, then it is an extremely high probability that this is not an accurate reflection of their trading.

Quote
=realjumper;6451728
You say that "Of course, these people won't link a trade explorer because they would then be unable to fantasy trade".......so in your bitter and cynical world, by your definition you are saying that people who won't link a TE to their personal account must fantasy traders. Grow up.
By your reasoning here..
If I were to say that an apple is a fruit, you will take that to mean that all fruits are apples?
Will you kindly desist from referring to me as bitter and cynical. I am not bitter and I have no idea why you keep saying that I am.
As for being cynical, there is no harm in having a dose of cynicsm, especially when trading the forex market that seems to attract a lot of scammers.

Quote
=realjumper;6451728
Further, the very thing you keep crying about is that you think that some.....no.....most people are wannabe guru's who won't prove themselves because the won't use a TE. How is that different form a wannabe guru who surfs from thread to thread to thread to thread dispensing advice and (mostly) criticism to other people, without actually producing any credentials of his own?

Please note that I have never made any claim to be a great trader, nor have I posted anything to give that impression.
Any advice that I may offer in other threads is well intentioned and with no intention to appear some sort of guru.
Yes, I admit that, the same as you, I have no credentials. But I don't write any posts where I claim to be making mega pips from trading.
If I were to post loads of winning trades and no losers on a thread, I would expect to be asked why I didn't take such and such a trade and would think it reasonable if someone called me on my BS. Not a problem for me as I don't BS.
I don't need any credentials to offer advice that stems from my own experiences.
I can be critical at times, but only where it is deserved.
Please Do Not PM Me With Coding Enquiries
  • #150
  • Feb 17, 2013 3:15am Feb 17, 2013 3:15am
Quoting 60minuteman
David its true, trading can be simple for a brain but vastly complicated to code...

If you dont know how to read the cycles of price movement up and down the TF's then you're at a dis-advantage straight away, if you do, then the actual entry and exit strategy is simple.

trying to think of an eloquent way to explain.....

try writing down how to hit a golf ball....difficult, showing someone in person, easier..... getting good at it... takes practice...

Watching someone good playing golf will not make you a better golfer though im afraid
Many thanks for your reply.
  • #151
  • Feb 17, 2013 3:45am Feb 17, 2013 3:45am
Quoting P.Dean
That's fine buddy we do not have to agree and its about open exchange of opinions and views which leads to good things in different ways and forms for each individual.

If you don't mind i will make one more humble effort to explain my side.

Ok so.. wouldn't the something and worse go for TE-less thread as far as "Harm" goes?.. where is the trader left when follows a thread with excellent teaching and still loses?.. you see you still got the same problem with a simple thread. The added transparency to that excellent teaching will do harm?!!.....

At some point as a trader you will have to learn to deal with pain and loss, if you need a comfort blanket provided by another I don't think you are cut out to be a trader.... its the trader that needs to be transparent, not the teacher.

The problem lies in what makes a trader, it is not copying another, it is exploring ideas, some profitable, some not and from them discovering your own patterns that work for you. So I still think a TE is doing more harm than good, it makes the trader lazy, it makes him accept everything he is told, it stops him from digging through weeks and weeks of history looking for the flaws and exceptions that will never get fully explained in a thread.

I understand your points fully and they are valid, maybe there are 2 ways to get there but for me I have never needed or wanted to see others results
tradewith60
  • #152
  • Feb 17, 2013 3:58am Feb 17, 2013 3:58am
LOL P.Dean if everything was transparent..theire would be no gurus
..and FF would be reduced with 95 % atleast.

60min man P.dean is completly right... one day you find out ( maby )
StopLoss is for none belivers... Trust the Gurus..
  • #153
  • Feb 17, 2013 4:20am Feb 17, 2013 4:20am
Quoting lillelise
LOL P.Dean if everything was transparent..theire would be no gurus
..and FF would be reduced with 95 % atleast.

60min man P.dean is completly right... one day you find out ( maby )
just keep adding liquidity to my wins Lille... thanks

can you point me to your thread with the TE attached?
tradewith60
  • #154
  • Feb 17, 2013 4:25am Feb 17, 2013 4:25am
here's Lille's thread... with his super successful strategy... no TE attached though, so clearly all cock and bull, by his own admission......

Moody i cant spoon feed you...you need to pratice demo..atleast for a month..

why not try it ..you got nothing to lose...
Cycle between green and red button..and just watch whats happening..
But remember to use the Magic MM.
We are a small group who trade this live,,very very succesfull..
But the system/method is so dangerous for the brokers..that they asked us ..not to post it any more...ofcourse they pay us a litle tribute not to
....the system is for advanced traders only,,and only guys like your self,,chips,,cortnywild ,ed ganulas...will be able to understand it..
...so please dont spread the method..cause then the crim brokers will ban us.....
tradewith60
  • #155
  • Feb 17, 2013 4:29am Feb 17, 2013 4:29am
threads like this.... good old ff logic

some people are actively afraid of a little transparency and honesty. it would ruin their entire little worlds if someone dared to be just a little bit open and provide some proof instead of illusions and delusions and bullshit make-believe.

i've played golf on the moon, but none of you clowns will ever get picture proofs from me... how dare you even ask. you'll never learn to play better by seeing my holiday snaps in the gray dust, nor learn to be an astronaut, so go figure it out yourselves.... but in the meantime, here's some brainteasers that will lead the chosen few towards perfecting that ultimate lunar golf swing, etc.

if you don't want to risk a live account being linked to but can't be bothered opening a demo account and showing some rock-hard data then fuck off. instead, spend all of your time on a forum arguing how awesome brijon is and how martingaling can be done 'right' and whatever else, and how showing some statistically significant data is pointless.

go team.

you really can't win in this place. you either get some dodgy fucks using multiple usernames broadcasting to the world how awesome they are doubling a $50 account in 50 trades... and then imploding and being banned for being shady as all hell... AND THEN STILL HAVE IDIOTS HAVE FAITH IN THESE ACCOUNT DESTROYING FAKERS AND ADVERTISERS. then on the other hand you have the fundamental loyalists of the secret handshake club who go around patting each other on the bottom saying "good show old chap. those imaginary number you made-up do sound oh so delicious. how doth thy do it? can i serve you some tea and biscuits?".

derp.
Congratulations ScalaFX for coming out of the closet!
  • #156
  • Feb 17, 2013 4:43am Feb 17, 2013 4:43am
Quoting 60minuteman
The problem lies in what makes a trader, it is not copying another, it is exploring ideas, some profitable, some not and from them discovering your own patterns that work for you. So I still think a TE is doing more harm than good, it makes the trader lazy, it makes him accept everything he is told, it stops him from digging through weeks and weeks of history looking for the flaws and exceptions that will never get fully explained in a thread.
Totally disagree.
If a system trader chooses to attach a TE, how does it make a trader lazy and accept everything that he is told?
If the TE proves that the system works and if a trader is not profiting from using the same system, it will make him ask himself "Why"?
Hopefully he will then look within himself and see if he can improve his trading
Please Do Not PM Me With Coding Enquiries
  • #157
  • Feb 17, 2013 4:53am Feb 17, 2013 4:53am
Quoting nubcake
threads like this.... good old ff logic

some people are actively afraid of a little transparency and honesty. it would ruin their entire little worlds if someone dared to be just a little bit open and provide some proof instead of illusions and delusions and bullshit make-believe.

i've played golf on the moon, but none of you clowns will ever get picture proofs from me... how dare you even ask. you'll never learn to play better by seeing my holiday snaps in the gray dust, nor learn to be an astronaut, so go figure it out yourselves.......

wow what an angry man..lool

So are we saying that threads like nobrainertraders are all a waste of time because there is no TE attached?

I disagree.. end of
tradewith60
  • #158
  • Feb 17, 2013 4:54am Feb 17, 2013 4:54am
Quoting Gumrai
Totally disagree.
If a system trader chooses to attach a TE, how does it make a trader lazy and accept everything that he is told?
If the TE proves that the system works and if a trader is not profiting from using the same system, it will make him ask himself "Why"?
Hopefully he will then look within himself and see if he can improve his trading
because you should want to prove a system works yourself, you're going to put your money on the line based on what someone else says? yeah you sound a perfect candidate for trading..
tradewith60
  • #159
  • Feb 17, 2013 5:03am Feb 17, 2013 5:03am
60 minute man, Do you actually read the posts that you respond to?

You were responding to my post reproduced below...

Quote
Totally disagree.
If a system trader chooses to attach a TE, how does it make a trader lazy and accept everything that he is told?
If the TE proves that the system works and if a trader is not profiting from using the same system, it will make him ask himself "Why"?
Hopefully he will then look within himself and see if he can improve his trading

this is your reply

Quoting 60minuteman
because you should want to prove a system works yourself, you're going to put your money on the line based on what someone else says? yeah you sound a perfect candidate for trading..
Do you not see that you are agreeing with me?
Please Do Not PM Me With Coding Enquiries
  • #160
  • Feb 17, 2013 5:08am Feb 17, 2013 5:08am
Quoting nubcake

if you don't want to risk a live account being linked to but can't be bothered opening a demo account and showing some rock-hard data then fuck off.
If anyone were to show a demo account you would get endless people saying "well anyone can do it on demo" plus you would then have to place trades on your live account as well as the demo, not so easy. Rock hard data can be found by yourself, by looking at the system, reading what has been said and then firstly backtesting and then in a simulator to see if you get similar results. If you dont then find out why you dont, are you doing something differently to the original poster? Does the system call for holding onto trades and you find you really cant because you are more of a scalper? Does it call for taking 10 pips at a time and you like to hold onto trades or move to breakeven when everyone else is taking profit? These things can be found very quickly on your own. If the original poster is going through a bad patch personally and cant seem to follow his own rules and the trade explorer starts to go downhill does that mean the system is crap?? Just because a trade explorer is attached means nothing to me personally.

Someone has thought something through put it out for everyone to look at and judge for themselves, if you are looking for a system to use and then cant go that extra mile for yourself then there is not much hope you will do well at anything.
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