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If it's such a great system, why isn't there a Trade Explorer attached?

  • #121
  • Feb 4, 2013 2:49pm Feb 4, 2013 2:49pm
Quoting Silat50
I THINK SOME OF YOU HAVE LOST TOUCH WITH REALITY! In any sport, and especially any professional sport, would any team ever hire you without seeing you do what you claim you can do. To get any respect in anything you have to be seen "walking your talk."
No one is asking anyone to "hire" or buy anything. I make no claims. I share my method.......End of story.



Quoting Silat50
It is no coincidence that almost zero percent of software vendors and system sellers never show their tax returns or even their trading statements. ALMOST NONE CAN WIN! And they cover it up with the B.S. "I love to teach and I want to give back." Yeah....ok. Im trading 15+ years.
In fact ALL the system "sellers" that I have ever seen show their trading statements. Many of those systems are of $99 variety, but they are chomping at the bit the show their statements. Of course the statements are almost certainly photoshopped.....such is the value of showing statements!


Quoting Silat50
I say, stick that answer up your __s! EITHER USE A TRADE EXPLORER HERE, or you just are not a professional, no matter how much theory you know and how nice a guy you are.
I'm not a professional in your one eye then......that's fine with me.


Quoting Silat50
Mine is up. And I just use it to papertrade, not to show off. But as the people on MY thread have seen,when I had 13 for 13 winners a few weeks ago, I screen captured it right from my live trading platforem and showed it. If you arent at least doing that..........................99% YOU ARE NOT PROFITABLE. PERIOD!
Marvelous......congratulations.


Quoting Silat50
Oh and the guy who talked about Jesse Livermore. Jesse had a trade explore of a sort back then too. You know how much profit he made....in the end! ZERO! Yiou know why.....his "trade explorer" showed that he wound up checking into a hotel and committing suicide. NO WINNING TRADER WOULD DO THAT!
Yes, Jessie did commit suicide.....his life was tragic in many ways and history shows that many people of genius do take their own lives, sadly. In fact he suffered from depression for most of his life, and that is a serious condition even now, in the 21st century, let along in the early part of the 20th century. However that had noting to do with his trading skill and he left behind a considerable fortune, so he didn't die broke. Yes, he lost his fortune more than once, and each time it was because he didn't trade his system......he listened to other people who bragged about their abilities and showed all sorts of 'proof'. As they say, those who talk about it the most, do it the least!

And no, he did not use a "trade Explorer of sorts"....hs very edge for which he is famed is that he kept himself to himself and traded his system and only traded for himself.

Quoting Silat50
Im 54 yrs old. Im a sociology major and I spent my life watching what makes people do and act the way they do. Long before I ever heard of Forex. Anyone is free to PM me if you have serious questions or need advice. Im on these boards whether FF, mikes, TL....for years and years. I walk my talk.
Don't hold your breath waiting for a PM....btw.....you mentioned yourself 7 times in 5 short sentences.....ego is a serious problem in trading....fwiw
Doing what you like is Freedom. Liking what you do is Happiness.
  • #122
  • Feb 4, 2013 2:50pm Feb 4, 2013 2:50pm
the only thing that matters is their track record.. so post a trade explorer for your system.. if it's losing over time, then we know exactly how well the system does
  • #123
  • Feb 4, 2013 2:51pm Feb 4, 2013 2:51pm
realjumper : yah i blew up my account, why ? because i was using a system that you helped create
  • #124
  • Feb 4, 2013 2:53pm Feb 4, 2013 2:53pm
Quoting allisonmagic
the only thing that matters is their track record.. so post a trade explorer for your system.. if it's losing over time, then we know exactly how well the system does
No you don't. You will know exactly how well the system developer can trade his own system...and that's all. The point has been made several times in this thread. You should read it all.
Doing what you like is Freedom. Liking what you do is Happiness.
  • #125
  • Feb 4, 2013 2:54pm Feb 4, 2013 2:54pm
Quoting realjumper
No you don't. You will know exactly how well the system developer can trade his own system...and that's all. The point has been made several times in this thread. You should read it all.

why post your system here then.. if you expect it to preform the way you developed it, and it doesn't preform at at all.. then why do you post it
  • #126
  • Feb 4, 2013 2:58pm Feb 4, 2013 2:58pm
Quoting allisonmagic
realjumper : yah i blew up my account, why ? because i was using a system that you helped create
No. I did not help create Symphonie system......I modified it to try and get it to a profitable state but I met stiff resistance from it creator.

You never even traded that system, you kept adding and adding indicators until the candles were just about invisible. You failed to follow the system. Whether the system works or not is another matter, but that system's creator has posted several accounts where *he* made a decent profit......yet no one else seems to be able to replicate......which proves my point that trade explorers and statements only prove that the system originator can trade his own system.

And yes, I'm sad that you blew up your account, and I hope you recover from that.....but *you* blew up your account....no one else did that to you. Own it.
Doing what you like is Freedom. Liking what you do is Happiness.
  • #127
  • Feb 4, 2013 2:59pm Feb 4, 2013 2:59pm
Quoting allisonmagic
why post your system here then.. if you expect it to preform the way you developed it, and it doesn't preform at at all.. then why do you post it
Read the thread....this has been answered several times.
Doing what you like is Freedom. Liking what you do is Happiness.
  • #128
  • Feb 4, 2013 3:10pm Feb 4, 2013 3:10pm
Quoting realjumper
No. I did not help create Symphonie system......I modified it to try and get it to a profitable state but I met stiff resistance from it creator.

You never even traded that system, you kept adding and adding indicators until the candles were just about invisible. You failed to follow the system. Whether the system works or not is another matter, but that system's creator has posted several accounts where *he* made a decent profit......yet no one else seems to be able to replicate......which proves my point that trade explorers and statements only...

you have to add indicators to it, because it can't do the job on it's own..


"And yes, I'm sad that you blew up your account, and I hope you recover from that.....but *you* blew up your account....no one else did that to you. Own it. "

i appreciate that thanks.. i also appreciate you banning me have a nice day
  • #129
  • Feb 4, 2013 3:18pm Feb 4, 2013 3:18pm
Quoting allisonmagic
you have to add indicators to it, because it can't do the job on it's own..
I agree....that's why I tried to convince the creator to ditch all the repainting indicators......which he refused to do, but has now done, some 6 - 9 months later!

Never the less though, the creator posted 3 different (and profitable) accounts, which we assume were achieved using his system.....and you've just admitted that the system doesn't work. Thanks for making my point.


Quoting allisonmagic
"And yes, I'm sad that you blew up your account, and I hope you recover from that.....but *you* blew up your account....no one else did that to you. Own it. "

i appreciate that thanks.. i also appreciate you banning me have a nice day
If you come to my thread an immediately start disrespecting people and the thread rules, you will get banned. If you behave yourself and contribute in a constructive manner, you will be fine.
Doing what you like is Freedom. Liking what you do is Happiness.
  • #130
  • Feb 5, 2013 5:21pm Feb 5, 2013 5:21pm
Quoting realjumper
No one is asking anyone to "hire" or buy anything. I make no claims. I share my method.......End of story.





In fact ALL the system "sellers" that I have ever seen show their trading statements. Many of those systems are of $99 variety, but they are chomping at the bit the show their statements. Of course the statements are almost certainly photoshopped.....such is the value of showing statements!




I'm not a professional in your one eye then......that's fine with me.




Marvelous......congratulations.




Yes, Jessie...


Jumper, I dont want any enemies here. If I offended anyone here I apologize, but come on man!.....you have 9680 posts here and you have time to pick my whole post apart? Let me be silent. It speaks for itself. But on that note lets shake hands and let me come right out and say that I believe in trade explorers for proof. Not long ago we'd have to pay for something this useful. And to be honest, as you saw, Im totally new here. I wasnt even talking about you, to you or knew you. -) Of course there are people who are pros that never use a trade explorer. I came here in friendship and I really don't have ego problems. In fact Im leaving this thread and I will never post here again. I am old enough to know that most things in life aren't personal as we think. Hey, I dont fit in here on this thread, I want to leave on good terms, and I wish everyone a prosperous year. Adios folks. There is room enough just on this one Website for us all.
  • #131
  • Edited 7:06pm Feb 5, 2013 6:52pm | Edited 7:06pm
Quoting Silat50
Jumper, I dont want any enemies here. If I offended anyone here I apologize, but come on man!.....you have 9680 posts here and you have time to pick my whole post apart? Let me be silent. It speaks for itself. But on that note lets shake hands and let me come right out and say that I believe in trade explorers for proof. Not long ago we'd have to pay for something this useful. And to be honest, as you saw, Im totally new here. I wasnt even talking about you, to you or knew you. -) Of course there are people who are pros that...
I was simply answering your post in the same tone as your post.....and answering you point for point. To upset you was not my intention, but you made several points that needed to be addressed each on their own.

I believe that Trade Explorers offer proof as well......they prove that the person who is trading that account is profitable (or not).....and that is all they prove. If you're looking for a way to prove a system, a single trade explorer is not going to do that.......and that's a fact.
Doing what you like is Freedom. Liking what you do is Happiness.
  • #132
  • Edited 4:30pm Feb 15, 2013 4:14pm | Edited 4:30pm
"If it's such a great system, why isn't there a Trade Explorer attached?"

Isn't the answer obvious?

Because unless a trader is selling his system, there's no benefit to him personally, by doing so.

Moreover, if a trader is successful to the point where trading represents a significant income source, then opening himself up needlessly to public scrutiny merely runs the risk of increased performance anxiety.

IMO a more valid question is: "Why are folk insisting on seeing a Trade Explorer, when a member is not selling anything?"
And that the onus is on those folk to demonstrate that they have motives other than these:
Quoting Seneca pilot
It seems that many of the readers on this forum are incredibly selfish and don't want to do any work for themselves. You want the system, and, oh by the way, could you please post proof in the form of a trade explorer so I don't have to waste my valuable time learning how to trade. I'd rather just copy your hard work.

Get real, folks. To those who think that the Trading Systems forum includes only systems that have already tested profitable for several years, read LazyPawn's post here. A very accurate description, isn't it?

Also, a good post by Parmalat here, making similar points to RealJumper (and others), regarding the distinction between "the trader" and "the system".
  • #133
  • Feb 15, 2013 6:09pm Feb 15, 2013 6:09pm
Quoting hanover
"If it's such a great system, why isn't there a Trade Explorer attached?"

Isn't the answer obvious?

Because unless a trader is selling his system, there's no benefit to him personally, by doing so.

Moreover, if a trader is successful to the point where trading represents a significant income source, then opening himself up needlessly to public scrutiny merely runs the risk of increased performance anxiety.

IMO a more valid question is: "Why are folk insisting on seeing a Trade Explorer, when a member is not selling anything?"
And...
"Because unless a trader is selling his system, there's no benefit to him personally, by doing so. "

One could also ask "Why does a trader post his system in the first place?" How does he benefit personally by doing so?
Sure there may be some who are only trying to help others.
Some maybe instigating a scam.
But for some, it's because they want to be seen as forex Gurus. They seek the anonymous fame that they get when instantly elevated to the status of a SuperTrader in the forum. They can perpetuate this illusion of being a SuperTrader by continually posting all their winning trades after they have closed them. Of course, these people won't link a trade explorer because they would then be unable to fantasy trade.
Please Do Not PM Me With Coding Enquiries
  • #134
  • Edited 7:45pm Feb 15, 2013 7:32pm | Edited 7:45pm
Quoting Gumrai
But for some, it's because they want to be seen as forex Gurus. They seek the anonymous fame that they get when instantly elevated to the status of a SuperTrader in the forum. They can perpetuate this illusion of being a SuperTrader by continually posting all their winning trades after they have closed them. Of course, these people won't link a trade explorer because they would then be unable to fantasy trade.
Well, maybe, ...... but I find that hard to believe, unless they're ultimately planning on scamming, or at least selling something. Some of those threads are several hundred posts long. Maintaining such a thread is a huge amount of trouble to go to, just to have one's ego massaged, and have nothing tangible ($$$) to show for it. I suppose it's possible, but the folk involved must have an inordinate amount of time to squander, no real motivating goals in life, and an ego/fantasy problem that's in some serious need of psychiatric help. LOL.

Instead, I think it's much more likely that folk post their ideas because they're hoping that somebody who DOES know how to trade will pitch in, or at least the pooling of other similar ideas, will somehow help them to improve their 'system'. It possibly never occurs to them that, since the vast majority eventually lose, that contributions will more likely amount to 'the blind leading the blind'. LazyPawn's description of how most system threads pan out tends to lend weight to such a theory.

The rest are likely to be scammers and system sellers IMO. We've already seen plenty of evidence of this.

I'll stay with my original view: namely, that those who push hardest for the posting of Trade Explorers are seeking a free 'double handout' (a plug-n-play, color-by-numbers system, PLUS the proof that it's profitable). No serious pro trader is going to post a TE, for the reasons that I gave. By definition, a true professional will always prioritize income generation over seeking kudos from trading wannabes whose knowledge and proficiency are significantly inferior to his own.
  • #135
  • Feb 15, 2013 8:15pm Feb 15, 2013 8:15pm
Quoting Gumrai
"Because unless a trader is selling his system, there's no benefit to him personally, by doing so. "

One could also ask "Why does a trader post his system in the first place?" How does he benefit personally by doing so?
Sure there may be some who are only trying to help others.
Some maybe instigating a scam.
But for some, it's because they want to be seen as forex Gurus. They seek the anonymous fame that they get when instantly elevated to the status of a SuperTrader in the forum. They can perpetuate this illusion of being a...
I maintain a thread here. It is a much larger time commitment than I expected. I will say that for me the motivation is to give back a little because the pieces that eventually coalesced to become my trading method were in a large part found here free of charge. The difference as I see it is that I never bothered the posters to prove their method's validity. I feel that a trader MUST go to the trouble of testing for themselves. I will go as far as to say that there is true value in testing junk methods. To learn what works you must first learn what doesn't. The benefits to me for posting in my thread are simple to understand. First, I can get the ideas rattling around in my head out in a concise way that cements my understanding of what it is that I do. Second, and more importantly, I can pay it foreward a little and maybe help others to find their way just as I was helped.
  • #136
  • Feb 16, 2013 12:36am Feb 16, 2013 12:36am
Quoting Seneca pilot
I maintain a thread here. It is a much larger time commitment than I expected. I will say that for me the motivation is to give back a little because the pieces that eventually coalesced to become my trading method were in a large part found here free of charge. The difference as I see it is that I never bothered the posters to prove their method's validity. I feel that a trader MUST go to the trouble of testing for themselves. I will go as far as to say that there is true value in testing junk methods. To learn what works you must first learn what...
I've read some of your thread and consider it a good one, from the little that I have read. Must start from the beginning again and read it through to the end.
Your thread is in Trading discussion, so not a system as such.

In all honesty, it doesn't really bother me too much that systems are posted without a trade explorer attached. It just bugs me when I see pages and pages of "I made xx pips on ??" There's nothing constructive in those sort of posts, simply a platform for posters to brag about their fantasy trades.
I saw recently somebody ask the simple question "why did you take that trade and not the previous (losing) signal"
He was told that it wasn't a good signal and treated with derision.
A few days later, these same traders are crowing about a great trade where the signal appeared during a time when the market had been in a tight range for the previous 3 hours and against the trend on M15 to H4 tf. Daily was showing an uptrend, but recently had a lower low and lower high.
Basically their reasons for not entering the previously mentioned trade signal. no longer applied. Only difference, this was a winning trade.
Please Do Not PM Me With Coding Enquiries
  • #137
  • Feb 16, 2013 12:52am Feb 16, 2013 12:52am
Quoting Gumrai
I've read some of your thread and consider it a good one, from the little that I have read. Must start from the beginning again and read it through to the end.
Your thread is in Trading discussion, so not a system as such.

In all honesty, it doesn't really bother me too much that systems are posted without a trade explorer attached. It just bugs me when I see pages and pages of "I made xx pips on ??" There's nothing constructive in those sort of posts, simply a platform for posters to brag about their fantasy trades.
I saw recently somebody...
Hanover actually commented what i want to say as well. Actually, why really cares about what others are doing? why not try to understand what's not working well for our own self, and find ways to improve our trading ethics, emotional management, psychology etc, and master our own system in and out, with our own very sound risk and money management? Personally, no matter how good a system is, the result will still come out differently from different traders.

As the time they enter, the time they exit, the trailing stop, the rr, the mm, and current market condition.

Personally, i don't believe in signal unless its really short term scalp set up, other than that, all position takers, timing commonly more than 1 hour, will be affected by the market session, volatility, fundamental, and many many reasons -> end of the day is how the trader manage his trades and account. Trade management and a good risk manager.

There can be sell from one point to another, but still there's buy from one point to another. Market moves up and down, a seller doesn't mean hes wrong in a current bull market, same for a buyer in a bear market, its perspective, time length, risk, and rewards bet and etc. All in all, find our own ways to trade to become consistent and reliable for our own self. Ignore what others can boast about, if they care to share about their set up, then learn from it, even if its a losing trade, learn from it as well, so we don't commit it or we cut our losers short.

Personally, i feel and think that a chart without words worth a 1000 words more than what the trader can boast about his entry and victory. What's the irony and ego trying to says how good a person is? when he just say oh i tp here, i buy here, sell here, and when he lose he keep mute. Pretty funny. Why not explain why he enter a buy, with his chart, and tell where his stop loss, and tp, and if hes wrong why he cut? like trailing stops, he can make 20 pips + first ,then market turns, he cut at 0, and a sell stop below the support to go with a prevailing trend with a chart to illustrate his points?

That would serve better than trying to say i make 5% i make 100 pips. To me, % is nonsense, what is 5% on a 100 dollar? compared to 5% on a 1 million account? or even 400 % on a 500$ compared to 400% on a 500k account. even pips is nonsense as well, pip doesn't mean make money, unless all lots are the same all entry are using a fixed lot, so many accounts make money with negative pips with their own mm and rr as well. So its really a variable factor.

End of the day, its the dollar that counts, and how much that dollars is meant to each individual. What is 1000 ? to a person with million or few hundred thousand account? but 1000 is big for a small retail trader with just 500-2000 account. He can just be a student compared to a retiree or a high net worth individual.

No one can make sure all 100% trade to win everytime! We can't afford to nurse them. So eventually, we still have to suffer loser, its only how and when we want to dump the loser before we get affected or margin call. Just take Jpy pairs for eg, if anyone is so persistent of being bear over the past few months, they can easily be killed over 2000 pips move from most pairs like ej and gj.
  • #138
  • Edited 2:58am Feb 16, 2013 2:29am | Edited 2:58am
To start I want to clarify that.. a none "Full Visual TE" is worst than a thread without one or worst than anything, it servers absolutely nothing.
with that out of the way..
The motive of a thread stater will be revealed with a "full visual" TE and simply it will not without one.. there is no question about that.. whether he/she is just a good citizen who wants to payback to community to help/teach.. or other things like ego, showing off, manipulating, selling, scamming, gain fame, attract investors for funding and etc,..

The fact of a matter is whatever a heck he/she is after will be revealed with detail study of a TE and no one in the right mind would buy into his/her bad intentions, vs a thread without one to never be revealed and will always remain as a mystery so will the fantasy continue for followers.
For system building based threads on team work and brainstorming.. is also safe to say a full visual TE will do a lot of help.

Now, some argue that TE could show profitability and not the system!!.. meaning the Trader who is trading it is profitable but not necessary the system offered, so its not useful.. ok..
first of all, same thing could be said about a TE-less thread.. the op could be profitable with discretion or etc, but not the followers who are trading the same preach.. so no difference there.
.. now also, wouldn't you think that a super curious person at a system.. would not bother to look hard into each detail trade of TE to find the true sense of it? the logical answer is YES.. and if he/she does do that study the true sense will be revealed or at least reveal what the user is after.. vs a thread without one will never provide users with such capabilities.
To say the least, FVTE (I just made that up.. lol) gives the user more options...options such as getting to the bottom of a system offered in every aspect.. the technical part.. concert stats.. the creators capabilities in it.. live trade tracking.. the true connection between the system with reality and its creator as well, and a lot more. It simply would not do harm but only good, lets be honest.
.. is just as simple as that folks.. rest is just stories and tales.
not to mention that the FF as the largest viewed Forex site has decide to have such tool perhaps upon request of many.. so it must have served a necessity for the addition.

I truly think that the OP's who are legitimate out to help/teach out of generosity with good intentions, are doing themselves a harm for not using such tool as an advantage to wipe all ever doubts about them and proceed with quality. To speak real, the fact is "Perception is Reality".. this tool is available now to eyes of every user, it is a good tool, it makes sense to most if not all, so it just simply expected of every thread starter.. they want proven credibility of system and you and it makes sense that its owed too.. its hard to fight against it. So in this day and age IMHO a OP before becoming a OP really needs to think about whether becoming one or not, because whether like it or night this challenge will arise at some point of the thread if not right from the get go and will create chaos and decreases quality. It's not worth the hassle, if one is really up to helping all kind of users then one needs to prepare for everything and all kind of responsibilities otherwise makes no sense to doing it in the first place. Not to mention that it makes the life of the OP a lot easier, it eliminates the constant chart showings or extra over and over explanations.. they see what you did, its transparent and the repetition of it will sink in with open eyes.

I also have a suggestion for Kyler to OP.. it might be a good idea to place a poll in this regard.. TE or No TE?.. thread with or without serves a user more good or not?.. something in that sort of line.

Anyways, just expressing my views as my only post in this thread.


All the best.
  • #139
  • Feb 16, 2013 2:57am Feb 16, 2013 2:57am
Quoting P.Dean
To start I want to clarify that.. a none "Full Visual TE" is worst than a thread without one or worst than anything, it servers absolutely nothing.
with that out of the way..
The motive of a thread stater will be revealed with a "full visual" TE and simply it will not without one.. there is no question about that.. whether he/she is just a good citizen who wants to payback to community to help/teach.. or other things like ego, showing off, manipulating, selling, scamming, gain fame, attract investors for funding and etc,..

The fact of...

you are failing to appreciate that wether there is a TE or not the trader needs to learn belief in THEIR system... this starts with a change of psychology, our brains are wired to protect us from harm at all costs, this is why people want to see TE because their brain is trying to protect them from what they fear the most... to be a loser.

If i put up a simple 3 step strategy that was profitable over time it would fail in the hands of a trader that failed to believe in it, wether there was a TE or not that belief has to be in the mind of the trader, that is a skill you need to learn. TE's etc can be counter productive to that path as the best way to learn is to go through the process of actually trading and being profitable.

also with a TE the traders become lazy, they dont test or try and discover if the system would suit them better if adjusted slightly....

Lastly, and I have said this before... if the last 100 trades on a system were not profitable, then the system doesn't work... you don't need a TE, you need a little effort, that is all....believe it
tradewith60
  • #140
  • Feb 16, 2013 4:04am Feb 16, 2013 4:04am
Quoting 60minuteman
you are failing to appreciate that wether there is a TE or not the trader needs to learn belief in THEIR system... this starts with a change of psychology, our brains are wired to protect us from harm at all costs, this is why people want to see TE because their brain is trying to protect them from what they fear the most... to be a loser.

If i put up a simple 3 step strategy that was profitable over time it would fail in the hands of a trader that failed to believe in it, wether there was a TE or not that belief has to be in the mind of the trader,...

Whether people fear to be or not be a loser but more importantly they fear of following a loser or false pathway for too long or more then enough.. this is more related to life at ff then challenging the whole humans mind process. change of psychology comes when you see real performance of at least some what proven system to begin with. Have the capability options to dig in on ones own term. A thread without TE does not provide a such but thread with TE does. Obviously one should not follow a explorer blindly, its just commonsense.. has to put the two and two together get something out of it and move on.
when one witnesses David Bekham bends it in the back of the net, Tiger birdies or Roger fed makes crisp ball contact for winner in all consistent manner, then and only then one start to believe that its is possible, a belief plants and gains confidence as to "if he can do it so why can I".. but one got to see it for real firstly... then one got to go out and practice, develop skill, mental toughness and etc,
.. TE will not stand it such way and would not do harm but good brother.
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