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Dukascopy

  • #1,861
  • Jun 25, 2012 7:38am Jun 25, 2012 7:38am
Quoting alankw88
I'm a swing trader. I normally hold a position from days to weeks. As I know, the leverage will be lower down to 30:1 during the weekend. Overall, Dukascopy is a good broker but I don't like the weekend leverage policy. So, Dukascopy will not in my selection list.
to be honest if you swing trade with over 30:1 leverage you shouldnt be trading.
  • #1,862
  • Jun 25, 2012 10:12am Jun 25, 2012 10:12am
Quoting JeremyWS
to be honest if you swing trade with over 30:1 leverage you shouldnt be trading.
Don't you love these kinds of statements in FF.

So... Why 30:1? Why not 20:1 or 40:1? Care to show us the statistical data you somehow collected that led you to this precise conclusion?

Lemme guess, you pulled that number out of your ass. OR you concluded it from your limited experience and decided it must apply to everybody else's.

*expecting a response implying I don't know shit about "proper" risk management *
  • #1,863
  • Jun 25, 2012 6:06pm Jun 25, 2012 6:06pm
Quoting Marv
Don't you love these kinds of statements in FF.

So... Why 30:1? Why not 20:1 or 40:1? Care to show us the statistical data you somehow collected that led you to this precise conclusion?

Lemme guess, you pulled that number out of your ass. OR you concluded it from your limited experience and decided it must apply to everybody else's.

*expecting a response implying I don't know shit about "proper" risk management *


I can explain it to you Most people here don't know shit about proper entries. Usually those are the ones with the "you can only trade daily/weekly... everything else is random noise / gambling / only fundamentals work" blah blah blah. Everything below 100 pip SL is no SL and blah blah blah. They don't realise that leverage is at the end (if done properly) just the outcome of your risk/reward equation. If you risk 1% but know your risk aka SL and play it the right way to get as close as possible to that risk level 1% or whatever might be an extremely high leverage although risk is small. For all the usual bullshitters that don't know shit about entries and just pop in a large SL (if a SL at all) 1% is of course minimal leverage just like their reward will be minimal but that's the point they will never understand - afterall it's a basic human trait that everything must be wrong / bad because one is not able to do it. Same shit like everyone fantasizing about the market going for their microlot SLs when they lost a trade once again. FF shows that very well.
  • #1,864
  • Jun 26, 2012 3:34pm Jun 26, 2012 3:34pm
Quoting Marv
Don't you love these kinds of statements in FF.

So... Why 30:1? Why not 20:1 or 40:1? Care to show us the statistical data you somehow collected that led you to this precise conclusion?

Lemme guess, you pulled that number out of your ass. OR you concluded it from your limited experience and decided it must apply to everybody else's.

*expecting a response implying I don't know shit about "proper" risk management *
Well if he said 20:1 I would be more favourable and that is more ok to swing trade with.

Take the AUDUSD - one of the majors - has had an ATR of 90 pips for the last 100 days, sometime up to 159. Now as an average thats about 1% (give or take). Now most brokers cut of trades between 20%-50% so with 30:1 leverage a 1.6% to about 2.5% before a margin call.

Now by definition a swing trade last more than one trading day therefore not intra-day trading.

So all it takes is for TWO days in the wrong direction (or a major shift in prices over the weekend or like some prefer to call "gap") to get a margin call or major loss of your margin.

Not one institutional trade uses more than 10:1 rarely more than 5:1 and they are the ones who are successful through this and well a two year old can connect the dots - hope you can too.

Thats not used to show my point but shows you that it is the correct way to swing trade. Try swing trading AUDUSD with 100:1 leverage with a real broker and see if you can do that with a realistic R:R ratio.

I'll give you the answer, you can't in the long run.
  • #1,865
  • Jun 26, 2012 3:36pm Jun 26, 2012 3:36pm
Quoting unknown4x
I can explain it to you Most people here don't know shit about proper entries. Usually those are the ones with the "you can only trade daily/weekly... everything else is random noise / gambling / only fundamentals work" blah blah blah. Everything below 100 pip SL is no SL and blah blah blah. They don't realise that leverage is at the end (if done properly) just the outcome of your risk/reward equation. If you risk 1% but know your risk aka SL and play it the right way to get as close as possible to that risk level 1% or whatever might be an...
he was talking about swing trading, when it comes comes down to intra-day and scalping 50:1 is fine and I don't for one minute think that anything below 100 pip SL is no SL.

Just when it comes to swing trading and ATR is 1%, 100:1 blows you out really quick.
  • #1,866
  • Jun 27, 2012 3:35am Jun 27, 2012 3:35am
what a bunch of bs that low leverage is, if you are a winning trader, the higher leverage you can use the more you would win, on the other hand, if you are a loosing trader the more you would loose, but if you know you are a winning trader and you have a winning system and are using 10:1 when 200:1 is avalible, you are really limiting your potential, high leverage will only blow you if you are a loosing trader, but 90% aparantly is, thats why everyone is so afraid to use high leverage. if you think about it, on a winning system, if you use 200:1 compared to 10:1, wouldn't you win a lot more? my calculation say you definitely would.
Bulls are stupid Animals!especially when Im short!
  • #1,867
  • Jun 27, 2012 6:15am Jun 27, 2012 6:15am
Quoting roughtrader
what a bunch of bs that low leverage is, if you are a winning trader, the higher leverage you can use the more you would win, on the other hand, if you are a loosing trader the more you would loose, but if you know you are a winning trader and you have a winning system and are using 10:1 when 200:1 is avalible, you are really limiting your potential, high leverage will only blow you if you are a loosing trader, but 90% aparantly is, thats why everyone is so afraid to use high leverage. if you think about it, on a winning system, if you use 200:1...
this is swing trading ffs, on scalping its ok, but 200:1 gives you about 50 pips sl before margin call and that is impossible when swing trading.
  • #1,868
  • Edited 9:12am Jun 27, 2012 8:36am | Edited 9:12am
margin in stock and forex is different concept.
1:10 in stock is very scary, 1:100 in forex is normal.

For example assume margin call when your margin is touched. I have $10000 to trade with 2 options of leverage 1:100 and 1:20.

I open 100000 units EURUSD in 1:100 so the margin needed is 1000. I have around 9000 breath room or around 900 pips.

I open 100000 units EURUSD in 1:20 so the margin needed is 5000. I have lesser breath room around 5000 or around 500 pips.

Example above just for simplification not exact calculation.

PS: Stop loss at margin call level is stupid
  • #1,869
  • Jun 27, 2012 8:48am Jun 27, 2012 8:48am
Quoting roughtrader
what a bunch of bs that low leverage is, if you are a winning trader, the higher leverage you can use the more you would win, on the other hand, if you are a loosing trader the more you would loose, but if you know you are a winning trader and you have a winning system and are using 10:1 when 200:1 is avalible, you are really limiting your potential, high leverage will only blow you if you are a loosing trader, but 90% aparantly is, thats why everyone is so afraid to use high leverage. if you think about it, on a winning system, if you use 200:1...
Thats about. Tack.
How to opt out annoying user signatures ??
  • #1,870
  • Jun 27, 2012 2:02pm Jun 27, 2012 2:02pm
Quoting yusuf84
margin in stock and forex is different concept.
1:10 in stock is very scary, 1:100 in forex is normal.

For example assume margin call when your margin is touched. I have $10000 to trade with 2 options of leverage 1:100 and 1:20.

I open 100000 units EURUSD in 1:100 so the margin needed is 1000. I have around 9000 breath room or around 900 pips.

I open 100000 units EURUSD in 1:20 so the margin needed is 5000. I have lesser breath room around 5000 or around 500 pips.

Example above just for simplification not exact calculation.

PS:...
You realise that if you have 10,000 and you trade 100,000 in affect you are trading 10:1.
  • #1,871
  • Jun 28, 2012 1:27am Jun 28, 2012 1:27am
Quoting JeremyWS
You realise that if you have 10,000 and you trade 100,000 in affect you are trading 10:1.
You talk about trade size. Leverage we talk here especially for the post by swing trader above is not about trade size but about he need larger margin/collateral at the weekend because leverage lower down to 1:30. Margin we talk here is about collateral not trade size.

Ok back to trading !
  • #1,872
  • Jun 29, 2012 6:36am Jun 29, 2012 6:36am
Quoting unknown4x
I can explain it to you Most people here don't know shit about proper entries. Usually those are the ones with the "you can only trade daily/weekly... everything else is random noise / gambling / only fundamentals work" blah blah blah. Everything below 100 pip SL is no SL and blah blah blah. They don't realise that leverage is at the end (if done properly) just the outcome of your risk/reward equation. If you risk 1% but know your risk aka SL and play it the right way to get as close as possible to that risk level 1% or whatever might be an...
Well said, if one knows how to time their entries then one can definitely use higher leverage & maximize their profits!
Just because most people aren't good with their entries & get caught in rallies/pullbacks upon entering, doesn't mean that nobody can time their entries correctly.
  • #1,873
  • Jun 29, 2012 5:56pm Jun 29, 2012 5:56pm
Quoting JeremyWS
this is swing trading ffs, on scalping its ok, but 200:1 gives you about 50 pips sl before margin call and that is impossible when swing trading.
no it doesn't, the choise of strategy does not matter at all, it's all about adjusting your trade size,
large SL = smaller lot size,
small SL = larger lot size
depending on what percentage of your acount you are trading.

you wrote; You realise that if you have 10,000 and you trade 100,000 in affect you are trading 10:1.

That is not leverage, that's margin
Bulls are stupid Animals!especially when Im short!
  • #1,874
  • Jun 30, 2012 1:02am Jun 30, 2012 1:02am
Quoting Marv
Don't you love these kinds of statements in FF.

So... Why 30:1? Why not 20:1 or 40:1? Care to show us the statistical data you somehow collected that led you to this precise conclusion?

Lemme guess, you pulled that number out of your ass. OR you concluded it from your limited experience and decided it must apply to everybody else's.

*expecting a response implying I don't know shit about "proper" risk management *
Presuming you know everything about *proper* money management, let me just reiterate that for a position using 1:10 leverage, then for every 100 pip move one's account is exposed to 10% change. 1:20 yields 20%, 1:30 yields 30% and so on. Yes 1:100 yields 100% for 100 pip change...

Just recently we all could see how large weekend gaps can be... So the question is: how would you set your over weekend margin requirement if you ran your own brokerage? What number would you pulled out of your bum? Perhaps a statistic of over weekend gaps would come handy and you would not be setting the number to first sigma range.

From another point of view, take a look at this video: Six Billion Dollar Bet
http://video.pbs.org/video/2237926398

MF Global collapse... John Corzine had a position with 1:40 leverage; you wanna join this group ...?

Perhaps your account is small, you are scalping, so you think you can use higher leverage. OK, but then as someone already pointed out here, a 1:100 position already is on Margin Call border, 50pip move and you get Margin Cut.

Now, let's consider this: http://www.chrislori.com/index_files...ge-change.html

Quoting @ChrisLoriFX
We cannot get into all the details of the various trading models we implement with managed funds, but we typically trade unleveraged, unless there is a significant interest rate and positive carry advantage to reduce the overall risk. We may allocate a small percentage of the portfolio to a higher risk model, but position size still remains well below 10:1 leverage on the high risk allocations.
  • #1,875
  • Jun 30, 2012 7:08am Jun 30, 2012 7:08am
^

I don't know what your definition of "scalping" is, but I never trade over the weekends, I never expose myself to 100 pip moves, and I don't need 1:1 leverage to protect me (if you call that scalping then I'm happily a scalper). To me it's all about adjusting trade size to meet a predefined % based SL. So your post is like useless white noise to me.

Read the posts above by roughtrader, r41225, and unknown4x. I have nothing to add.
  • #1,876
  • Jun 30, 2012 7:10am Jun 30, 2012 7:10am
On topic: Just noticed they reduced their commission to start from 35 instead of 48.

I guess they're trying to be more competitive for retail clients (their target market). It's good but I think they should rather try to improve their spreads/slippage.
  • #1,877
  • Jun 30, 2012 7:32am Jun 30, 2012 7:32am
the best broker for forex trading to me. i think for large investor this broker is the best one. any one can feel secure by investing on them.
  • #1,878
  • Jul 6, 2012 12:48am Jul 6, 2012 12:48am
Can anyone confirm this spread numbers?

http://www.forexpros.com/brokers/com...dukascopy-demo

I think its alitle bit high considering that duka is an ecn. It says that this spread they show already included but I think its relative because wich person have a different commission.

But one of the things I think its weird is that the usd/jpy pair has a better spread than the eur/usd.

So can someone confirm me this numbers especially the the fact that the pair eur/usd has the best spread.

Thanks in advance.
  • #1,879
  • Jul 6, 2012 2:03pm Jul 6, 2012 2:03pm
I have noticed on several occasions that all currency pairs with AUD, NZD, GBP get exposed to widening of spreads around night time (as from 22-24GMT). would any one know the reason!! and is that normal with other brokers too?
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: wide spreads.gif Size: 67 KB
  • #1,880
  • Edited 8:36pm Jul 6, 2012 8:19pm | Edited 8:36pm
Quoting Demos4x
Can anyone confirm this spread numbers?

http://www.forexpros.com/brokers/com...dukascopy-demo

I think its alitle bit high considering that duka is an ecn.
That's the thing with Dukascopy. They claim to be this huge ECN and all, but then they have these spreads which just don't look like those of 'true' ECN's. Actually they look more like those of Oanda, which is a market maker that hedges its exposure against liquidity providers.

The following is from the Liquidity Business Model page on Dukascopy's website:

Quote

  1. Execution

Dukascopy Bank SA has a unique technology to hedge instantly any clients' trades directly with other Liquidity Providers. Dukascopy Bank is currently connected to Bank Of America, Commerzbank, Nomura, Barclays, Currenex, SEB, Deutsche Bank, JP Morgan, Societe Generale, UBS, Goldman Sachs, Citibank, BNP Paribas, HSBC Bank, HotstpotFXI, Lava - FX All Morgan Stanley and other liquidity providers. All trades are usually executed in milliseconds.

And again:

Quote

  1. ECN liquidity

The integration of the world's major banks allows Dukascopy Bank to execute large orders, which can instantly be hedged within the Liquidity Providers' network.

Notice the choice of words here.

"Hedge" client trades with liquidity providers, not directly pass/match client orders with orders/liquidity from liquidity providers (like in 'true' ECN environments) or something like that. They specifically insist on using the word "hedge" instead. That is not random.

Now again, if you happen to be familiar with the famous market maker Oanda, you would know that this is what Oanda also says it does. I.e. its business model is to make a market (with variable ECN-like spreads), while "hedging" its exposure to client trades with its Liquidity Providers (Deutsche Bank, JP Morgan, etc, etc). Except Oanda does not claim to be an ECN because of this, and rightly so.

Conclusion? How about Dukascopy being a high quality pseudo-ECN; a fancy market maker just like Oanda instead of a 'true' ECN. If this is the case, it would at least explain the spreads, the slippage, the "taking the other side of client trades" thing, the "hedge client trades" thing, the ability to trade microlots, and so on.


PS. I don't claim to be an expert. If you disagree, just say why. Kthx.
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