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  • #61
  • Jun 12, 2012 12:12pm Jun 12, 2012 12:12pm
All depends on the type of system you share.

If your system is buy on Tuesday at 11:57 pm and sell on friday at 9:59 am and your getting 30% a month on average then i suggest you keep that to yourself.

On the other hand if your system requires user discretion and understanding of "market conditions" then share it to your hearts content.

1. It's silly to believe that you are the only person on earth in all the years trading has existed who has found what you've found. There are others who are close or farther along than you are.

2. A man/woman will only go as far as he believes he can and there are very few that truly believe they will go "that" far.

3. To some, financial success requires more than just a change in how you trade. Getting the money is one thing. Keeping it is a TOTALLY different beast that many are very unprepared to deal with.
  • #62
  • Jun 12, 2012 2:16pm Jun 12, 2012 2:16pm
Trading is a performance activity...... To cite my source, I will share the following article written by Brett Steenbarger. This should explain what I was talking about in a well written document by a trader that I do have great respect for. Brett Steenbarger is a fulltime trader and psychologist.

---------------------------------------------------------------




Five Guiding Principles of Trading Psychology

Brett N. Steenbarger, Ph.D.

....... (excerpt) >> Principle #1: Trading is a performance activity - This is the core idea behind my most recent book. Like the playing of a concert instrument or the playing of a sport, trading entails the application of knowledge and skills to real time performances. Success at trading, as with other performances, depends upon a developmental process in which intensive, structured practice and experience over an extended time yield competence and expertise.

-----------------



The entire article is attached here with permission.... I refer you to his website at www.brettsteenbarger.com

There are a lot of articles there on trading psychology.
Attached File(s)
File Type: doc Five Guiding Principles of Trading Psychology.doc   32 KB | 646 downloads
  • #63
  • Jun 12, 2012 11:20pm Jun 12, 2012 11:20pm
Quoting Roofx
When there are no facts available all we can do is make assumptions based on lots of previous experience. I am very familiar with Google ads and I use them myself for part of another small business I run which has nothing to do with Forex. The only fact available was that you have a link in every post you make which is there to attract visitors to your website. And you have a revenue generating system on that website. You would not bother setting up Google ads on that site if you did not want people to click the ads. I don't believe you about only...
You are free to make all the assumptions you want in your head, but when you post your assumptions on this forum they can cause defamation. I suggest you read up on libel laws before you start stating your assumptions as "facts". You may feel I don't have the best interest of people at heart and have every reason to dislike me for that belief, but the moment you begin to make that belief public based on assumption, you are causing defamation. I have plenty of email and direct message exchanges with others that prove your theory to be false.
  • #64
  • Jun 13, 2012 3:53am Jun 13, 2012 3:53am
Quoting Halifax
Buy low, sell high. This is the system I use, and I'm giving it to you for free

Thanks for your generosity, I'll be always grateful to you, you've opened my eyes and I see now
  • #65
  • Jun 13, 2012 6:58am Jun 13, 2012 6:58am
Quoting 2+2=4ex
You are free to make all the assumptions you want in your head, but when you post your assumptions on this forum they can cause defamation. I suggest you read up on libel laws before you start stating your assumptions as "facts". You may feel I don't have the best interest of people at heart and have every reason to dislike me for that belief, but the moment you begin to make that belief public based on assumption, you are causing defamation. I have plenty of email and direct message exchanges with others that prove your theory to be false.
I suggest you read my last post more carefully. The facts I mentioned were that you promote your website on Forex Factory and that you use a revenue generating system on said website. If both of those statements are untrue I'd love to hear how. I also suggest you chill the heck out and remember that this is just a forum where people occasionally do bump heads and clash in their opinions before you start getting all legal and threatening in tone. I don't have time for silliness like this. I'd prefer to get back to discussing forex.
  • #66
  • Jun 13, 2012 10:59am Jun 13, 2012 10:59am
Back to the original question of Why do people share profitable systems.

There are several reasons why people share any systems.....

Quoting Roofx

...- A huge majority of the systems which are shared on Forex forums are not profitable. ......
Roofx gave a list of reasons why people share:

>>> Some come from people who have come up with an idea that they haven't properly tested and wish others to help them test it.

>>> Some come from some who haven't tested their idea for a long enough time period to see if it is effective longer term and their excitement drives them to share.

>>> some rare few share genuinely working ideas because they just want to help.

I would add that many people are looking for recognition in an anonymous forum. Trading is difficult and many either want to sound smart, or want to test their words against the market (FF) to see if they sound smart.

Some share a great sounding "bells and whistles" system because they either want to sell you a system or get you to invest with them.

Some are just bored and want to have something to chat about. (Probably why I'm writing this right now)

However.... none of that addresses the original question of why people share profitable systems. They don't because they probably can't.

If the "profitable system" could be shared in an easily explainable format to others on the internet.... then it could be explained to a coder who could write a successful EA. That does not happen. If someone could explain a system in a step-by-step process (that so many seem to want in these halls), they would be truly foolish to give that away. But what is being shared around here are ideas, not profitable systems.

I am not saying that there are no profitable systems either. Don't get me wrong. There are most certainly profitable traders. And those profitable traders have profitable systems. However, if they share their system with others, they are only sharing ideas, knowledge, and things that work for them. This is not something that can be coded into an EA. It is wrapped up in what we call "discretion".

That's why, at the end of the day, each person just needs to learn how to trade. And trade for themselves, by themselves, with whatever they have learned along the way that helps them to be profitable for themselves.

There is no step-by-step, paint-by-numbers profitable system. We share ideas and things that we've learned. It doesn't hurt our market position in the bucketshop books. It doesn't matter. If 10,000 other rookie retailers followed our method it wouldn't make any difference. Every method there has ever been on here has been traded differently by each individual trader anyway, so....

Actually the original question is flawed. It contains an oxymoron.
  • #67
  • Jun 13, 2012 11:23am Jun 13, 2012 11:23am
Quoting Price
Back to the original question of Why do people share profitable systems.

There are several reasons why people share any systems.....



Roofx gave a list of reasons why people share:

>>> Some come from people who have come up with an idea that they haven't properly tested and wish others to help them test it.

>>> Some come from some who haven't tested their idea for a long enough time period to see if it is effective longer term and their excitement drives them to share.

>>> some rare few share genuinely working ideas because they just...
i dont think it could be said better and more honestly
  • #68
  • Jun 13, 2012 12:07pm Jun 13, 2012 12:07pm
Quote
There is no step-by-step, paint-by-numbers profitable system

can you show me a proof ?

Quote
I would add that many people are looking for recognition in an anonymous forum. Trading is difficult and many either want to sound smart, or want to test their words against the market (FF) to see if they sound smart.

i agree.

Quote
Some are just bored and want to have something to chat about. (Probably why I'm writing this right now)

Quote
...bucketshop books..

btw ecn brokers are bucketshops or not?

when i get board i look at chart art.here is a sample,ain't it beautiful?
http://i.imgur.com/7XYHJ.png
  • #69
  • Edited 1:48pm Jun 13, 2012 12:27pm | Edited 1:48pm
Quoting Coolleen
can you show me a proof ?



i agree.





btw ecn brokers are bucketshops or not?

when i get board i look at chart art.here is a sample,ain't it beautiful?
http://i.imgur.com/7XYHJ.png
A great piece of art !!! Who want to bid ?
I want to see it in a six months ranging market of 4 $ range It will end with all horizontal lines
  • #70
  • Jun 13, 2012 12:39pm Jun 13, 2012 12:39pm
"There is no step-by-step, paint-by-numbers profitable system..."

Quoting Coolleen
can you show me a proof ?
No.

It used to be believed that all swans are white..... until someone actually saw a black swan. (I have actually seen a black swan in the duck pond behind my old house..... however, they are rare and thus the term "black swan event" is born)

No. I can not show you proof that there will never be a simple money-machine system that just generates cash without even knowing how to trade. It just hasn't happened yet.

However, after a few years of chasing the elusive holy-grail, a reasonable person will likely conclude that this aint no giveaway program. You'll just have to trust me on that. Or... spend the years that it takes each one of us to come to realize it on our own.

.....ecn: bucketshop or not >>>> well I can't call every ecn out there a bucketshop. However, a retail broker - whether it is ecn, stp, or dealdesk - is essentially a bucketshop. That is, they are the counter-party to your trade. Not all trades go in the bucket, but the bucket is most certainly there.

..... Your "Charts on Drugs" example is indeed a beautiful one !! Feel free to enter it in the contest >>> http://www.forexfactory.com/showthread.php?t=185027
  • #71
  • Jun 13, 2012 1:05pm Jun 13, 2012 1:05pm
Quoting Fudomyo
I disagree that profitable systems are shared. Most of everything that appears on the internet has nothing to do with a profitable system.

There's the illusion of profitable systems being shared. Like the Sam Seiden stuff, VSA, Market Profile. All of these are not profitable systems. They are glorified dart throwing. Dart throwing always comes with the disclaimer of psychology attached.

A profitable system involves a completely different metric than slapping an indicator on a chart or supply demand levels or virgin points of control....
One of the best posts I've read so far on this board. Very well written!
  • #72
  • Jun 13, 2012 1:10pm Jun 13, 2012 1:10pm
Quoting w.penn
I'm going to disagree with you here. Individual traders do not move markets, institutions move markets. you would be silly to follow somebodies trading strategy, unless they knew where the institutions big buy/sell orders are. If only there were some way to find that out.....
I got to disagree on this. Yes, we can't know technically where institutional orders are, but it is possible to accurately see on a chart where they are. Support/Resistance, a very important topic, but probably the most ignored by newbies.

Institutional bids/offers are at previous asian session high/lows, previous day high/low and higher time-frame support and resistance (weekly, monthly, yearly levels + psychological s/r).
  • #73
  • Jun 13, 2012 5:51pm Jun 13, 2012 5:51pm
like ripley's believe it or not some rare people post profitable systems because they are truly genuine humanitarians at heart,and they just want to give back after experiencing time and battle tested strategies,and then on the other hand it's true that the more money in your account(s) the more you can possibly make(and lose) so to sell your system(s) to fund a larger account(s) isn't out of the question.
  • #74
  • Jun 14, 2012 1:20am Jun 14, 2012 1:20am
Quoting Fudomyo
I disagree that profitable systems are shared. Most of everything that appears on the internet has nothing to do with a profitable system.

There's the illusion of profitable systems being shared. Like the Sam Seiden stuff, VSA, Market Profile. All of these are not profitable systems. They are glorified dart throwing. Dart throwing always comes with the disclaimer of psychology attached.

A profitable system involves a completely different metric than slapping an indicator on a chart or supply demand levels or virgin points of control....


The Auction Market Process (Market Profile), is a discretionary trading tool, not a trading "system". It’s just a visual representation of data. One of the reasons many traders use a technical (mechanical) trading system is to take themselves out of the decision making process. Any trading strategy, that doesn’t require thought or any effort to make an informed decision about market structure, would be imo, some type of system.
Trading off random lines generated by the Market Profile indicator (or anyother indicator, for that matter), is trading the indicator, not making an informed trade decision based on market structure or data.

There is an uninformed illusion going around that the Auction Market Process (Market Profile) is some type of "System" (a mechanical tool to take ones self out of the decision making process). When with a little effort and a little research on the subject, you’ll find its actually a "decision support tool" to aid in making an informed trade decision, it requires individual thinking & discretion. A "System" is to remove oneself from the "decision making process", trading with little or no effort.

"Mind over Markets" page 18
".......When you rely solely on yourself, you alone take pride in reaping therewards of success—but there is also no one else to blame for defeat. The tendency to be a follower is not an easy thing to realize or admit. Not surprisingly, one of the primary reasons many traders use a technical (mechanical) trading system is to take themselves out of the decision making process..."

"Markets in Profile: profiting from the Auction Process" page 19
"…...In order to manage this information, as we mentioned in the preface to this book, we employ the chicago board of Exchange's traders support tool, called Market Profile. Market Profile is not a trading system, nor is it predictive. Market Profile simply allows you to observe the structure of the market as it unfolds, enabling a more accurate interpretation of which
timeframe is in control of market movement."
Markets are not efficient, rather they are effective - Jones
  • #75
  • Jun 14, 2012 2:43am Jun 14, 2012 2:43am
The only way i would share my profitable trading systems is if:

1) I had made enough fortune to sustain myself, comfortably, for the rest of my days.

2) If i had nobody i could "will" it to upon my death bed (children,...).

Other than that id discuss ideas and whatnot, but i would never divulge a full blown "built-from-the-ground-up" trading system.

Why do people tend to share systems?

1) Thet are not complete systems (hence discretion involved).

2) They dont truly exploit an edge, randomly if that.

3) They are simply complete crap and want to gain insight/new ideas.
  • #76
  • Jun 14, 2012 2:54am Jun 14, 2012 2:54am
Quoting Moe Wet
like ripley's believe it or not some rare people post profitable systems because they are truly genuine humanitarians at heart,and they just want to give back after experiencing time and battle tested strategies,

and then on the other hand it's true that the more money in your account(s) the more you can possibly make(and lose) so to sell your system(s) to fund a larger account(s) isn't out of the question.
I'm going to address both of these statements together. And I'm not picking on the poster... I just want to dig deeper into the theory because I have heard these statements many times before.

Yes, there is the feeling among appreciative traders to give something back to this community. But the thing that they have to give is experiences, ideas, and some chart setups or trade ideas.

There is no "system" here that is so great that it is worthy of selling. I stated before that if you could explain the system in a step-by-step manner to a coder, he could create an EA to dream for. The systems that are shared are ideas that are a great tool to learn from or to add to your trading arsenal. But they rarely stand alone like a money machine. And most every trader will trade the "system" differently with all kinds of varied results.

Experienced traders will do well with a number of different methods, while inexperienced traders will struggle with all of them. The search for the easy money is instinctive.

Usually, the difference will be described as "discretion". Discretion serves the experienced trader quite well, regardless of what new colored line he or she just drew across their chart.

The step-by-step, buy-here & sell-there systems are kind of like (in pro baseball terms) standing at the plate, facing a World Series pitcher, and waiting for the guru to tell you when to swing. But, that ain't gonna work.

You are going to have to commit to the practice required to become an expert in your field so that you can use your own subconscious mind to decide when to react to the market in real time for your own good reasons.

The guru standing behind you telling you when to swing is better off just taking the bat and swinging it for you.

Think about that.

That means that, instead of giving you trade calls, or setting up your charts for you..... the guru would be best off to just make the trades by himself, and just send you a check at the end of each month.

Again I say (in another different way this time) taking guitar lessons from Paul McCartney will not make you a rock star overnight.

Insert>> Tiger Woods / Golf Champ, etc., etc.
  • #77
  • Jun 14, 2012 3:15am Jun 14, 2012 3:15am
How about surfing? Anybody surf?

It is just like trading imo, but of course, anybody who partakes in sports will relate trading to their particular sport in one way or another.

For me its surfing.
  • #78
  • Jun 14, 2012 3:23am Jun 14, 2012 3:23am
Quoting Pipalicious
How about surfing? Anybody surf?

It is just like trading imo, but of course, anybody who partakes in sports will relate trading to their particular sport in one way or another.

For me its surfing.
Cowabunga dude!
  • #79
  • Jun 14, 2012 3:23am Jun 14, 2012 3:23am
Quoting Price
Insert>> Tiger Woods / Golf Champ, etc., etc.
There is a reason why discretionary algorithm trading rules the world. Subconscious mind - right.... stop that spam
  • #80
  • Jun 14, 2012 4:56am Jun 14, 2012 4:56am
Like in so many other cases, I think that the motive should not be overlooked. To draw an analogy, we have "psychics" who know they are crooks and all they want is to scam people, and we have "psychics" who truly believe they have a "gift" and want to help others, with or without a fee. Of course the end customer will always receive crap, but the answer to the question "why does X give psychic readings" is different in each case.

In most cases, people who ask for money in order to share a system, sell a book, give a seminar, offer signals, teach a system etc are crooks. I would say that more than 99.99% of them are crooks. We don't have to explain this in detail, it has already been said countless times that a marginally profitable system and the power of compounding would soon make the owner of such a system too rich to bother with book sales, teachings, signal services etc.

Theoretically speaking, there can be a small number of people who ask for money for their services and are not crooks. There may exist people who want to build up a starting capital quickly. If you have a system that can give you 30% a year but have a starting capital of only $1000, it's obvious that it will take many years before you can live off of your trading. The problem is that you wouldn't attract many buyers by promising "only" 30% per year. Not to mention that you can't even promise that.

Then, there could be people who really believe they have a working system and share it without asking for money. It has already been pointed out that in such cases, the system will almost invariably be based on a good amount of "discretion", otherwise it could be easily coded in an EA and make everybody rich until it stops working. This would need some further dicussion: Everyone who has backtested EAs for a number of years, will have discovered that there are indeed EAs that work consistently for a number of consecutive years. And if one happens to stumble upon such an EA at the beginning of its good period, he could even make many millions starting with a small capital, until the EA would stop working. He would of course have to quit when the EA would show too many losses but still, some wealth is possible.

Now, we can't reject the possibility that the owner of such an EA (or simply the inventor of a profitable system with strict rules) would share it for free, having already reaped the benefits himself. But the possibility of becoming rich from such a system ? I would deem it very very small. I recall several such systems here in FF (some of them even being coded into EAs) that worked fine for a limited amount of time. I don't recall any system that worked for long enough to turn $1,000 into $1,000,000, but in theory this could also happen.

So to recap, I would say that we have the following categories of people who share profitable systems for free:

1) Those who are crooks. They initially appear to give away a profitable system but later they will ask for money, one way or another.

2) Those who genuinely want to help, but their system employs a lot of discretion. They may be successful themselves, but the inability to set strict rules makes the system unusable for the vast majority of people.

3) Those who genuinely want to help and have a system with strict rules (coded into an EA or not). Here we have two subcategories:

3a) Those who think their system is profitable in the long run, but don't have the bank accounts to prove it. I think we are safe to assume that after a few weeks/months that system will most probably fail. Some of these people appear very enthusiastic about their system but later you may discover that they still trade $1000 or even demo accounts.

3b) Those who know their system is profitable because they have become "rich" themselves AND, at the same time, they believe that giving it away will not affect its effectiveness.

I believe that (3b) is the case most readers would be interested in, but even here there are some caveats: Can we be sure that even if the system has brought wealth to its owner, will continue to be successful in the future, especially when shared with thousands of people ? Can we be sure that the person who shares the system has really made a lot of money and is not trying to lure naive people into buying some teaching, book, service etc ?

I personally haven't found anyone who has shared (either for free or for money) a system that 1) has made him rich, 2) is still working and 3) has strict, unambiguous rules.
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