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No SL No Leverage Strategy - working so far

  • #821
  • May 14, 2012 3:21pm May 14, 2012 3:21pm
Quoting euclid
OK. Let's try again.

You:
1 lot * +100 pips in the bank
1 lot * -25 pips market buy loses
1 lot * -150 pips sell limit loses
1 lot * +75 pips sell stop wins
= 0

You got unlucky this time, but the Hedger woke up with a nice profit.
Correction.

The part quoted in bold did not happen. The sell limit was never triggered.
  • #822
  • May 14, 2012 3:34pm May 14, 2012 3:34pm
Ok...

After giving it some thought, I see where you are going with this. And now I fully understand why you mentioned OCO.

The truth of the matter is,
Price goes down to 1.28, then up to 1.31

Hedger:
1 lot * +200 pips sell wins
2 lots * -25 pips buy loses
= +150

You:
1 lot * +100 pips in the bank
1 lot * -25 pips market buy loses
1 lot * +75 pips sell stop wins
= +150

But then my pending limit order still stands. When price eventually moves back up to 1.31
-150
Total = 0

You are right in that sense. Because MT4 does not allow OCO. Meaning that if my sell stop was triggered, I have no automatic way to cancel my pending sell limit. (coz right now I'm supposed to be sleeping and not at my pc)

In this case, yes you are right.

But if all else being equal, meaning if MT4 somehow manages to allow you to do OCO. Then logically the sell limit and sell order should cancel.

But if you really want to go on about it, even though it could be improbable, you could argue that price oscillates so much between your sleep that it triggers every stop and ever limit order and then always moves against you. In that case, then yes you have found a positive use for hedging.

Great job! You should go and ask merlin for you 100k in cash
  • #823
  • May 14, 2012 4:07pm May 14, 2012 4:07pm
Quoting thelws
Ok...

After giving it some thought, I see where you are going with this. And now I fully understand why you mentioned OCO.
Right. Hedging is an unfortunate side-effect of the ticket based order system in MT4. Sometimes, if you are doing separate long and short trades it's simplest just to put up with it and eat the extra costs. This is not the same as the open-ended hedges some people suggest to "pause", "freeze" or "lock". These are always identical to closing a trade.

Anyway, an honest broker would refund any extra swap costs incurred while hedged in MT4. Below is a list of brokers that do this:

















... hmm. Can't think of any.
  • #824
  • May 14, 2012 4:52pm May 14, 2012 4:52pm
This is not the same as the open-ended hedges some people suggest to "pause", "freeze" or "lock". These are always identical to closing a trade.

Identical?
Wrong again!
Money talks...if you can hear...but if you talk too much....
















... hmm. Can't think of any.[/quote]
  • #825
  • May 14, 2012 5:18pm May 14, 2012 5:18pm
Quoting P.Dean
OK Bob anyway you want it.. we get it rolling when your ready.
I went to your thread to see what you did and I respect anyone who shows their trades and talks about them good or bad. Most of the debaters here do not. So win or lose, agree or disagree, I can respect a guy who is open and public with their trading. Last day of school is May 30 here for me in China, gotta close out the year paying off teachers and closing up and then I can put my full attention to this. I look forward to the challenge. I also need time to understand and set this explorer account. So we will take a look.
  • #826
  • Edited May 15, 2012 1:34am May 14, 2012 7:47pm | Edited May 15, 2012 1:34am
Quoting euclid
Right. Hedging is an unfortunate side-effect of the ticket based order system in MT4. Sometimes, if you are doing separate long and short trades it's simplest just to put up with it and eat the extra costs. This is not the same as the open-ended hedges some people suggest to "pause", "freeze" or "lock". These are always identical to closing a trade.

Anyway, an honest broker would refund any extra swap costs incurred while hedged in MT4. Below is a list of brokers that do this:

Ladies and gentlemen. Euclid managed to produce an argument in favour of using a hedge that is more sound and solid than 56 pages worth of postings from any other pro-hedging poster here.

His post basically sums up what I now believe about hedging. What he said in that few posts managed to sway my believe. I never expected to stand corrected but I am today.

His example is concise, has well explained logic and backed up by undeniable proof. He attacks the core of the discussion and provides solid rebuttals.

This is the example of a man who knows what he is talking about. We need more posters to emulate him...
  • #827
  • May 15, 2012 1:14am May 15, 2012 1:14am
Freezing is not identical to closing the trade.
Only in your fantasy.
Therefore the core of euclid and thelws "argument" is wrong.

But it is obvious they will never understand it.
  • #828
  • May 15, 2012 2:30am May 15, 2012 2:30am
Quoting euclid

Hedging is an unfortunate side-effect of the ticket based order system in MT4.
Quoting thelws

Euclid managed to produce an argument in favour of using a hedge
His argument is flawed because it seems to be based around the premise that OCO orders are not available on MT4 when in fact, with the use of a simple freely available script, they are.

Having said that, his clear and concise examples in support of his argument were the best I've seen in this thread, in fact they're probably the only lucid argument presented in favor of nedging! e-lucid euclid, subliminal, intentional, or coincidence?
  • #829
  • May 15, 2012 2:47am May 15, 2012 2:47am
Quoting pipmutt
His argument is flawed because it seems to be based around the premise that OCO orders are not available on MT4 when in fact, with the use of a simple freely available script, they are.

Having said that, his clear and concise examples in support of his argument were the best I've seen in this thread, in fact they're probably the only lucid argument presented in favor of nedging! e-lucid euclid, subliminal, intentional, or coincidence?
The truth is, euclid did produce a situation that we can't replicate using a no hedge method. Even if you have a script to do OCO, if price oscillates enough to trigger every stop and limit order you place, and then subsequently moves in a non favourable direction, you will come out worse than the hedger.

Notice that he did place a restriction that is "go to bed" meaning once we place our orders, we are unable to change our orders. So theoretically we can come out as losers. We cannot replicate a hedge method.

Having said that, the actual probability of it ever happening is maybe very low. More often than not we will end up with lock-unlock situation. And euclid stated his position on this very clearly and that is
Quote
This is not the same as the open-ended hedges some people suggest to "pause", "freeze" or "lock". These are always identical to closing a trade.
  • #830
  • May 15, 2012 5:22am May 15, 2012 5:22am
Quoting thelws

The truth is, euclid did produce a situation that we can't replicate using a no hedge method. Even if you have a script to do OCO, if price oscillates enough to trigger every stop and limit order you place, and then subsequently moves in a non favourable direction, you will come out worse than the hedger.
But some orders would be cancelled if others are filled. I suppose you could also add other contingent orders as well, there are several versatile flexible options, we're not just limited to the basic order types offered by the likes of MT4 brøkers.

The only logical excuse for being long and short on the same pair would be convenience for trading different time frames (or if you're an institutional trader who doesn't know/care what other departments are doing!), but it comes at a premium.
  • #831
  • May 15, 2012 5:33am May 15, 2012 5:33am
This whole debate about No SL vs SL seems pointless to me.Waste of time reading 50x pages of debate that should be debated on the other thread that specifically discuss about this.
The thread is about the strategy started on post one. Im waiting for an update so the strategy could progress ..being productive. This whole debate is like a husband/wife bickering right before a divorce. Nobody gained a damn thing just plain negativity. So what if the strategy goes into margin call etc ,his money his own responsibility. I did both hedging and SL strategies and both has it pros/cons..just do what suits you...but to force somebody this wont work ,this work and whatnot doesnt make sense. We got so many experienced traders here its kinda shame ... where is the respect here?
  • #832
  • May 15, 2012 4:49pm May 15, 2012 4:49pm
Quoting superbandam3

The thread is about the strategy started on post one.......So what if the strategy goes into margin call etc ,his money his own responsibility....but to force somebody this wont work ,this work and whatnot doesnt make sense.
No one is trying to force anyone to do anything, it's a debate on the pros, cons, and alternatives to using a stop loss. The OP specifically asked for opinions, comments, and views, I believe his request has been fulfilled and then some! Sure it gets heated, and some people have trouble expressing themselves and supporting their views calmly and rationally so resort to personal insult, that's people/forums for ya!

Can't stand the heat? Keep out of the kitchen!



Quoting Nacho

I want to share my strategy and get your opinions comments and views.

What do you think of this strategy?
  • #833
  • May 15, 2012 9:35pm May 15, 2012 9:35pm
Quoting pipmutt
But some orders would be cancelled if others are filled. I suppose you could also add other contingent orders as well, there are several versatile flexible options, we're not just limited to the basic order types offered by the likes of MT4 brøkers.

The only logical excuse for being long and short on the same pair would be convenience for trading different time frames (or if you're an institutional trader who doesn't know/care what other departments are doing!), but it comes at a premium.
True. With the use of a script, any MT4 hedge trade can be replicated with an unhedged equivalent but you're getting into quite a complex solution now to replicate what could be a very simple hedge trade. In trading, where mistakes can be costly, simplicity and convenience may justify the premium.
  • #834
  • May 15, 2012 10:53pm May 15, 2012 10:53pm
Quoting euclid
True. With the use of a script, any MT4 hedge trade can be replicated with an unhedged equivalent but you're getting into quite a complex solution now to replicate what could be a very simple hedge trade. In trading, where mistakes can be costly, simplicity and convenience may justify the premium.
A simpler solution would be dumping MT4 .
  • #835
  • May 16, 2012 12:04am May 16, 2012 12:04am
Quoting fierceman
A simpler solution would be dumping MT4 .
I 2nd that
  • #836
  • May 16, 2012 12:51am May 16, 2012 12:51am
-

3rd'ed!

I like their charts and the tools that are freely available....but for manual trading it wasn't for me! Don't know if MT5 is any better, not tried that.....
  • #837
  • May 16, 2012 4:00am May 16, 2012 4:00am
Quoting Nacho
Hi all,

I want to share my strategy and get your opinions comments and views.

The strategy I'm using is very simple and has been very succesfull so far.

My rules:

1. NO leverage
I have a 1000 eur account and I'm trading only 0.01 lots right now. I will start to trade 0.02 lots as soon as I reach 2000 eur margin and so on (or you can decide to go even slower by trading 0.02 lots only when your account has 3000 eur margin etc.)

2. SMALL TP
I have a set TP of 15-20 pips on every trade, trading only pairs with low broker spread.

3. NO Stop...
A couple of thoughts...

1. Forex is a high risk way of making money, our strategy should always be to minimize risk and at the same time maximize profits.... If the strategy only does one side of this equations it is in effect 'not working'.. just surviving isn't good enough.

2. I don't understand how the money management of the strategy works? this needs to be explained and give you an 'edge' in the market', if there is no defined stop loss how much is your risk on each trade? just using very small lots isn't reducing risk.

3. Is it not possible you would end up with a scenario where all of your capital is locked into opposing trades, for months or even years?

Everything that has made me move from erratic results to consistently profitable seems to be left out of this strategy.... just my opinion...

Logical thinking tells me that although you might feel you are never losing, you're not actually winning either, which might seem attractive if you're in that stage where you are still struggling with forex, but, I don't think it is the route to persue.
tradewith60
  • #838
  • May 16, 2012 4:36am May 16, 2012 4:36am
Quoting 60minuteman

Logical thinking tells me that although you might feel you are never losing, you're not actually winning either, which might seem attractive if you're in that stage where you are still struggling with forex, but, I don't think it is the route to persue.
I agree, but then looking at the OP's equity curve......mind you I've seen similar before, a nice smooth curve followed by a sharp vertical decline back to ~0, or like you say equity tied up for long periods of time.

Is there any way to read risk and unrealised p/l on that explorer thing, it would be nice to see the most meaningful stats on R:R, or maybe even a sharpe-type ratio?
  • #839
  • May 16, 2012 5:11am May 16, 2012 5:11am
Hey "51" forget the discussion and letīs make some money here.

Did my first campaig on a very small position EURGBP.
Entry system is irrelevant...I use my own.
I locked/unlocked 3 times.
Closed the last leg with a total result of: 1,148 R profit (R was initial risk), AFTER deducing interest paid!
I added up the interest Oanda charged per position, positive and negative (most was negative) and it amounted to -0,0046 R, which is very small.
Granted , the campaign took only 3 days, but for people that argue campaigns could last "months"...I donīt see that happening...when to BE I needed only a 30 pip retracement ,(show me a pair that went months in one direction without a retracement!
The final profit happened because it actually retraced about 45 in my favour...then I closed..
I looked at the market every 3 or 4 hours...and let it unfold..whenever I saw convenient, closed a position and put a pending lock again just in case...the last lock never triggered and BINGO.
No position was left unprotected at any time.All positions where exacly the same size.

A SL strategy would have netted me a 1 R loss.

Hey "51", I live in München , if you ever come around, let me know, and Iīll invite you to a nice bottle of Champagne downtown.
  • #840
  • May 16, 2012 5:40am May 16, 2012 5:40am
Quoting cuchuflito
more pips if you dare, I am trying to scalp on various strategies overall one can make plenty, but there is nothing worse than having ten and not taking it, and then the price moves against you and your 40+ down. Also try recall markets which are flat or narrow ranging will not give you alot of pips, so this way going for 10 we should have a much higher hit rate.
Thanks James
question: you apply 10 pips profit against a 10 pip stop?
Iīm currently putting a stop on the other side of the 5 MA, and trailing on every bar.
TP: a little more than 2 R (or double risk)
Sometimes the 4 H trends for days, and many, many pips...just trailing on a 1 bar basis, or the 5 MA..

I use to scalp for 10 pips in the 1 minute EURUSD.
Anyway, its all very interesting...Iīm in positive $, this first week...
Thanks again.[/quote]

Quoting cuchuflito
Sorry to say
Second week....20 trades, trailing on a 1 Bar 4h Chart...enter as per rules...
TP : double R

28.57 Winners
-0,193 expectancy.Negative.

A simple coin toss, with a logical trailing stop, does much better and is less work...
Iīm giving it up...
Maybe itīs just me...wish you all the best of luck

Enjoy life

Damn pretty fast ,,you turned into to a Top trader..
StopLoss is for none belivers... Trust the Gurus..
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