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No SL No Leverage Strategy - working so far

  • #801
  • May 14, 2012 2:57am May 14, 2012 2:57am
Quoting pipmutt

Yeah I realised that, but I think you'll find they're all trading a couple hundred bucks (some less), they can afford to mess up and it's no big deal. It's not serious trading, it's playing trader. If they had faith in their trading ability and the profitability of their strategy then they would have put up 5k a long time ago, some of them have been trading pennies for years, like you (or someone) said it's hardly enough to pay utility let alone make it worth the time they spend!
couldn't agree more..

I may add, making pips its different than making money and be actually profitable.
I used to drive a bug when i was making pips.
  • #802
  • May 14, 2012 4:32am May 14, 2012 4:32am
Quoting P.Dean
It is not about this thread or your thread or I or you read each others threads or whatever a heck else in that sort of nature.. it's about showing real profit.. can you be profitable.. if yes.. show it for real with a explorer account, cut and clear.
I am saying that your are not a profitable trader i don't think you ever have been.. if you ever were you would not have any problem taking up on this at least once in this forum.
I got nothing else to say to you Bob, my point is very clear.. i am not into he said she said, debates, conversations or...
Where do guys like you come from anyway. I love your argument:

I is a trader.
You is not a trader.
I win. bye.

I already proved my profitability, I dont have to reprove what I have already proven. If you are too lazy to go over the evidence that is not my problem.

I have already had this argument with these guys and I dont need to go over it again and again. If I show them all the pips I won, that is meaningless any one can make pips. If I show my account balance and its increase, that is meaningless too. Since we have already covered that ground in a previous debate I am not going prove something I have already proven.

Love these guys and their egos.

I is a trader,
You is not a trader,
I win I win.

Have a good day guy.
  • #803
  • May 14, 2012 4:56am May 14, 2012 4:56am
Quoting nanningbob
Where do guys like you come from anyway. I love your argument:

I is a trader.
You is not a trader.
I win. bye.

I already proved my profitability, I dont have to reprove what I have already proven. If you are too lazy to go over the evidence that is not my problem.

I have already had this argument with these guys and I dont need to go over it again and again. If I show them all the pips I won, that is meaningless any one can make pips. If I show my account balance and its increase, that is meaningless too. Since we have already covered that...
I am shockingly surprised with your reply.. lol

ya Bob you win with you pants over your head hiding.

Stick to the classroom Trading and being a Trader is way out of your league.

I got a live account in the eyes of everyone to see and currently 4 live trades going on.. what do you got besides your you know what in your hand and hiding.

get lost.

I am done here with this guy.
  • #804
  • May 14, 2012 5:49am May 14, 2012 5:49am
Quoting P.Dean
I am shockingly surprised with your reply.. lol

ya Bob you win with you pants over your head hiding.

Stick to the classroom Trading and being a Trader is way out of your league.

I got a live account in the eyes of everyone to see and currently 4 live trades going on.. what do you got besides your you know what in your hand and hiding.

get lost.

I am done here with this guy.
You believe a guys statement Pippmutt who started a thread and never got past page 1 and disbelieve a guy who has 500 people a day downloading my trading manuals because they know they will make money. You expect me to take you seriously with a judgement like that. LOL you are way too funny. You had your mind made up before you even posted your first post.
  • #805
  • May 14, 2012 5:51am May 14, 2012 5:51am
Quoting LazyPawn
If one has the common sense to accept the obvious mathematical truth it becomes clear that if 2 traders "read" the market exactly the same way, opening their positions exactly at the same point, using the same lot size ... the one using lock-unlock will end up getting at best the same profit as the one using the standard stop loss method. In fact he would fare a little worse given the higher trading costs. It's an inescapable mathematical truth, and hanover did a great job of proving it for those who had doubts.

However we cannot ignore the psychological...
This actually is a great post! I'm still trying to follow the discussion in this thread, still at page 12 or so and I don't want to get into this holy war raging here. But I think you have it right when you say we need an environment to keep emotions out of it.

Coming from a strict S/L-background I realized some months ago I do feel better managing trades that turned bad than eating the loss while still being positively focussed on a new setup. Eating the loss makes me angry and fearful of a new trade, dealing with a bad trade makes me calm. I'm coming from a managing background, so I'm used to 'fit-hits-shan'-stituations, I guess. I'm more relaxed and as of now get into better setups in the first place.

Regards, LD
Fail better.
  • #806
  • May 14, 2012 6:07am May 14, 2012 6:07am
Quoting LarryDarrell

Coming from a strict S/L-background I realized some months ago I do feel better managing trades that turned bad than eating the loss while still being positively focussed on a new setup.
An important point, rather than wasting time, focus, energy, and equity holding on to a losing trade in the hope it comes good it's better to cut it loose and focus on a new setup, infinitely more productive in the long run, from every perspective.

There's also the psychology of managing a losing trade and the (subconscious) filtering of negative market information to suit bias, that's a bad habit which needs addressing if one wants to become a truly consistently profitable trader making more than pennies!
  • #807
  • May 14, 2012 6:08am May 14, 2012 6:08am
Quoting nanningbob

You believe a guys statement Pippmutt who started a thread and never got past page 1
Huh?


Quoting nanningbob

and disbelieve a guy who has 500 people a day downloading my trading manuals
All that proves is just how many people are lost!
  • #808
  • May 14, 2012 7:18am May 14, 2012 7:18am
Quoting nanningbob
You believe a guys statement Pippmutt who started a thread and never got past page 1 and disbelieve a guy who has 500 people a day downloading my trading manuals because they know they will make money. You expect me to take you seriously with a judgement like that. LOL you are way too funny. You had your mind made up before you even posted your first post.


I don’t believe you or him or anyone else in the forum for that matter unless one has shown proven results.. your past live trading has not been on a day to day live account such as explorer where it reveals everything that one needs to know, you need to get modernize Bobby baby old tricks don’t work in this day and age no more. Your making me to bring the hammer on you now.
I have been listening to you for days in this thread and prior to it in Al’s thread (another loser who is looking for investors) where you all talked about recovery tricks and etc,.. so I believe what I believe based on your own words.. don’t try to twist things around just because I had couple of replies back and forth with pipmutt who you got a beef with who I had not seen or heard of prior to this thread. I am simply challenging your ability to be displayed for actual profitability, that’s it.. I don’t think you are a profitable trader based on trading style that you have proposed here for years, and I can care or less how many days or how many who and what downloaded your journal, its simply irrelevant when it comes down to display of proven results and actual ability to trade. I have reasoned with you to the max up to so far but you on other hand tries to stir away with off point replies and etc, which is too obvious to spot.. Not to mention your disrespectful words to me couple of replies back. Grow up Bob, its about time man, you got kids growing up under your hands as a English teacher that you say you are.
Bob the fact that you say you don’t take me seriously is bcz you are the P word, besides not being profitable.
Keep play with that play money or pennies and make zillions of pips which sums to 5 bucks a day at best.
I just displayed a live trade good for $160 on my explorer account for everyone to see.. again, what do you got Bob.. what!!.. 1500 pips behind the close doors.. be real man. that's all i have been saying all along with no other intentions.


However, I must be crazy to keep responding back to your nonsense today though.
  • #809
  • May 14, 2012 8:51am May 14, 2012 8:51am
Quoting iulli
I dare you, or anybody who is blinded.. give me any trade or set of trades that you made using hedging and I will show you how you don't have to hedge and still get the same profit, or more... Who is taking my challenge?
Say I sold at 1.3000
Sell 1 lot @ 1.3000 TP 1.2800 SL 1.3100

Let's say it's now 1.2900, I'm expecting a retrace.
I move my SL to even. And enter a hedge trade. So I have
Sell 1 lot @1.3000 TP 1.2800 SL 1.3000
Buy 2 lot @1.2900 TP 1.2950 SL 1.2875

I then turn off my platform and go to bed.

Please give the non-hedge trades I can use to replicate this in MT4.
  • #810
  • May 14, 2012 9:00am May 14, 2012 9:00am
Quoting P.Dean
I don’t believe you or him or anyone else in the forum for that matter unless one has shown proven results.. your past live trading has not been on a day to day live account such as explorer where it reveals everything that one needs to know, you need to get modernize Bobby baby old tricks don’t work in this day and age no more. Your making me to bring the hammer on you now.
I have been listening to you for days in this thread and prior to it in Al’s thread (another loser who is looking for investors) where you all talked about recovery tricks...
OK I can respect that. Puts you way above these guys. Cant even get them to post a single trade. I have to finish my school year before I will involve myself with such a thing so I will put a start date of June for this. I will suggest a starting capital of 2500 and go from there. This could be fun and I always like a real challenge.
  • #811
  • May 14, 2012 9:28am May 14, 2012 9:28am
Quoting euclid
Say I sold at 1.3000
Sell 1 lot @ 1.3000 TP 1.2800 SL 1.3100

Let's say it's now 1.2900, I'm expecting a retrace.
I move my SL to even. And enter a hedge trade. So I have
Sell 1 lot @1.3000 TP 1.2800 SL 1.3000
Buy 2 lot @1.2900 TP 1.2950 SL 1.2875

I then turn off my platform and go to bed.

Please give the non-hedge trades I can use to replicate this in MT4.
Easily replicated. Assuming you are doing this on MT4

Say I sold at 1.3000
Sell 1 lot @ 1.3000 TP 1.2800 SL 1.3100

Let's say it's now 1.2900, I'm expecting a retrace.
I close my position.
Then I put a market buy order for 1 lot.
Buy 1 lot @1.2900 TP 1.2950 SL 1.2875

If you are arguing that your original longer term trade is still in effect, I can replicate it by adding a sell pending limit order at 1.2950. That way when you close out your short term trade, the long term trade is reinstated.

I can also go to sleep. No difference. But the main difference here is I will always pay less spread and less rollover than you.

If you want to provide more details and simulate a more real market scenario, I can take up that challenge as well. Just tell me what you want to simulate and I will show you the math.

For example, if you took profit at 1.2950 and price continued to move further up. According to my method, I would be in the negative. You think you have the upper hand because you don't see a negative on your account. But rest assured, the pip count between my account and yours will be the same.
  • #812
  • Edited 10:00am May 14, 2012 9:48am | Edited 10:00am
Ok. I'll save you the trouble of challenging me. I'll provide proof anyway.

No hedge method
Say I sold at 1.3000
Sell 1 lot @ 1.3000 TP 1.2800 SL 1.3100

Let's say it's now 1.2900, I'm expecting a retrace.
I close my position. (+100 pips)
Then I put a market buy order for 1 lot.
Buy 1 lot @1.2900 TP 1.2950 SL 1.2875

Assuming price did move up to 1.2950 and my tp is hit. Also, the limit sell order is reinstated. (+50 pips)
Open position: Sell 1 lot @ 1.2950 TP 1.2800 SL 1.3100

Let's assume price continues to move up wayyyy up all the way to 1.3100 and the stop loss is hit. (-150 pips)

Total pips = 0

---------------------
Now let's count your hedge method

Say I sold at 1.3000
Sell 1 lot @ 1.3000 TP 1.2800 SL 1.3100

Let's say it's now 1.2900, I'm expecting a retrace.
I move my SL to even. And enter a hedge trade. (+100 pip floating)

So I have
Sell 1 lot @1.3000 TP 1.2800 SL 1.3000
Buy 2 lot @1.2900 TP 1.2950 SL 1.2875

Assuming price did move up to 1.2950 and my tp is hit. (+100 pips.)(For simplicity, I count 2 lot x 50 pip = 100 pip)
Open position: Sell 1 lot @1.3000 TP 1.2800 SL 1.3000

Let's assume price continues to move up wayyyy up all the way to 1.3100 and the stop loss is hit. (-100 pips)

Total pips = 0

*you need to remember that your original hedge is a floating profit. You did not bag the pips. So as price starts to move in the wrong direction, your floating profit began to get smaller and smaller. Eventually as it hits your stop loss, you get out with -100 pips.

---------------
Bottomline: I replicated your no stop loss method using a stop loss. Producing exactly the same amount of pips - in this case 0 pips.

The difference? No hedge method paid spreads only once. No hedge method paid rollover only for 1 position.

If you wish to open up many many hedges, I can also replicate it. No matter how complicated the scenario, you can always replicate it without using a hedge. The pip count will always be the same.
  • #813
  • May 14, 2012 10:10am May 14, 2012 10:10am
Quoting thelws
If you wish to open up many many hedges, I can also replicate it. No matter how complicated the scenario, you can always replicate it without using a hedge. The pip count will always be the same.
Bottomline: You can replicate everything on a historical chart.

You can double an account without using a SL within one day or triple it
on a historical chart.

What does it prove ?

Nothing, absolutely nothing.
  • #814
  • May 14, 2012 1:03pm May 14, 2012 1:03pm
Quoting thelws
Easily replicated. Assuming you are doing this on MT4

Say I sold at 1.3000
Sell 1 lot @ 1.3000 TP 1.2800 SL 1.3100

Let's say it's now 1.2900, I'm expecting a retrace.
I close my position.
Then I put a market buy order for 1 lot.
Buy 1 lot @1.2900 TP 1.2950 SL 1.2875

If you are arguing that your original longer term trade is still in effect, I can replicate it by adding a sell pending limit order at 1.2950. That way when you close out your short term trade, the long term trade is reinstated.
Hedger:
Sell 1 lot @1.3000 TP 1.2800 SL 1.3000
Buy 2 lot @1.2900 TP 1.2950 SL 1.2875

You:
100 pips * 1 lot realised
Buy 1 lot @1.2900 TP 1.2950 SL 1.2875
Sell Limit 1 lot @ 2950 (TP 1.28 SL 1.30 - I presume)

Price goes down to 1.28.

Hedger:
1 lot * 200 pips
2 lot * -25 pips
total = +150

You:
100 pips realised
1 lot * -25 pips
Sell limit not triggered
total = +75

Quoting thelws
I can also go to sleep. No difference. But the main difference here is I will always pay less spread and less rollover than you.
Quoting thelws
But rest assured, the pip count between my account and yours will be the same.
I am not convinced.
  • #815
  • May 14, 2012 1:27pm May 14, 2012 1:27pm
Quoting nanningbob
OK I can respect that. Puts you way above these guys. Cant even get them to post a single trade. I have to finish my school year before I will involve myself with such a thing so I will put a start date of June for this. I will suggest a starting capital of 2500 and go from there. This could be fun and I always like a real challenge.
OK Bob anyway you want it.. we get it rolling when your ready.
  • #816
  • May 14, 2012 1:30pm May 14, 2012 1:30pm
Quoting thelws
Bottomline: I replicated your no stop loss method using a stop loss. Producing exactly the same amount of pips - in this case 0 pips.
Bottomline. You didn't.

I don't have a no stop loss method. I agree that using a hedge instead of a stop is moronic. My example had stops. Please pay more attention.

In the example, I used OCO orders (SL & TP) to close one side of the hedge. To replicate this, you need to use OCO orders to open a position. I am waiting to hear how this is done in MT4.
  • #817
  • May 14, 2012 1:50pm May 14, 2012 1:50pm
Quoting euclid
In the example, I used OCO orders (SL & TP) to close one side of the hedge. To replicate this, you need to use OCO orders to open a position. I am waiting to hear how this is done in MT4.
You need an EA or script to do OCO orders in Mt4.
  • #818
  • Edited 2:29pm May 14, 2012 2:05pm | Edited 2:29pm
Quoting euclid
Bottomline. You didn't.

I don't have a no stop loss method. I agree that using a hedge instead of a stop is moronic. My example had stops. Please pay more attention.

In the example, I used OCO orders (SL & TP) to close one side of the hedge. To replicate this, you need to use OCO orders to open a position. I am waiting to hear how this is done in MT4.
You Are right! Kudos to pointing out my math. I forgot that I needed to add one more pending order.

Say I sold at 1.3000
Sell 1 lot @ 1.3000 TP 1.2800 SL 1.3100

Let's say it's now 1.2900, I'm expecting a retrace.
I close my position. (+100 pips)
Then I put a market buy order for 1 lot.
Buy 1 lot @1.2900 TP 1.2950 SL 1.2875

I also put a sell pending limit order at 1.2950 TP 1.2800 SL 1.3100
I also put a sell stop order at 1.2875 TP 1.2800 SL 1.2950 (I forgot to add this in my calculation. Good job at pointing it out! )

Price goes down to 1.28.

Hedger:
1 lot * 200 pips
2 lot * -25 pips
total = +150

You:
100 pips realised
1 lot * -25 pips
Sell stop triggered
1 lot * 75 pips
Total = +150

Result is the same.

And, the OCO thing... Any trade with a sl/tp in MT4 does OCO. Not an issue here. All my trades are similar to yours. In essence when one of my tp/sl is hit, it will cancel the other pending tp/sl order.
  • #819
  • May 14, 2012 2:18pm May 14, 2012 2:18pm
Quoting fxtr51
You need an EA or script to do OCO orders in Mt4.
Hey 51
I think these people just donīt understand...if I were you, I wouldnīt spend a single key of my keyboard typing answers...

Changing subjects:
Put my first campaign today,(very small position to play around and practice..)
Iīm long, and short EURGBP...took profit 2 times and reiniciated, just like you propose, always only 1 trade open plus hedge if triggered....in the moment I have a separattion of 25 pips...I have no pending SL or TP, cause I want to go to sleep...so tomorrow morning, no matter which way the market went Iīm still 25 pips diferential...Iīm shooting for BE or little plus...
If I can make it to turn this one around, meaning killing the diferencial.
THEN BINGO..
Any system with say 35 % winners, winners are winners...potential loosers you fight them back...
RESULT:$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Guess thatīs basically what hedge Funds do...thought about this for years...the difference, is you donīt add positions, itīs always only 1 position...(per pair).
THANKS MAN, itīs brillant!

Hey, if people donīt get it...better so...keep it secret...and enjoy your profits
  • #820
  • May 14, 2012 3:03pm May 14, 2012 3:03pm
Quoting thelws
Say I sold at 1.3000
Sell 1 lot @ 1.3000 TP 1.2800 SL 1.3100

Let's say it's now 1.2900, I'm expecting a retrace.
I close my position. (+100 pips)
Then I put a market buy order for 1 lot.
Buy 1 lot @1.2900 TP 1.2950 SL 1.2875

I also put a sell pending limit order at 1.2950 TP 1.2800 SL 1.3100
I also put a sell stop order at 1.2875 TP 1.2800 SL 1.2950 (I forgot to add this in my calculation. Good job at pointing it out! )
OK. Let's try again.
Price is 1.2900

Hedger:
Sell 1 lot @ 1.3000 TP 1.2800 SL 1.3100
Buy 2 lots @ 1.2900 TP 1.2950 SL 1.2875

You:
+100pips * 1 lot realised
Buy 1 lot @1.2900 TP 1.2950 SL 1.2875
Sell limit 1 lot @ 1.2950 TP 1.2800 SL 1.3100
Sell stop 1 lot @ 1.2875 TP 1.2800 SL 1.2950

Price goes down to 1.28, then up to 1.31

Hedger:
1 lot * +200 pips sell wins
2 lots * -25 pips buy loses
= +150

You:
1 lot * +100 pips in the bank
1 lot * -25 pips market buy loses
1 lot * -150 pips sell limit loses
1 lot * +75 pips sell stop wins
= 0

You got unlucky this time, but the Hedger woke up with a nice profit.
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