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  • #1,741
  • May 13, 2012 6:55am May 13, 2012 6:55am
Quoting roughtrader
no they didn't touch my original positions,
They opened five new positions' I had five shorts and they opened five longs'
Well if they didn't reduce any of your short positions and only opened additional long positions I would agree with JeremyWS that it's not that big of a deal since you can close the hedge positions on Sunday evening. I would still vouch for a increase of the weekend margin to 50:1.
  • #1,742
  • May 13, 2012 7:27am May 13, 2012 7:27am
Quoting JeremyWS
6PM GMT - Plus I don't see the problem with the margin cut, it is a partial hedge which you can close right on the open on sunday, Regardless of whether price goes up or down your overall profit on a trade is hardly changed.
The problem with it is that it is unfair to just execute the margincut whenever they feel like just because it's Friday, it was atleast 1,5 hours and more left of trading time, they never gave me the chance to manage this my self. Plus I have to pay commission on five new trades I didn't make. This makes me mad. it is definitely a problem, It can be a substantial amount depending how large lot size. In my case it wasnt very large so Im going to let it slip, but it is still unfair. it also don't allow you to make any profit during the weekend, Im getting sick of this big brother mentality, In my opinion the margincuts should be executed at a fix time as close to the end as possible if used at all. 1.5 hours before is just redicilous. Yes it was a complete hedge making me intirely flat in the market, wich also was overkill, they didnt have to make me totally flat, it would have been enough to just open 3 hedge positions and I would have been well enough within the margin and it would have enabled me to make some profit during the weekend, a gap down or whatever, in my case it's not a big deal economic, it's their behaviour Im getting mad at. And other traders can get hurt more than me, just because they make this a possibility, I think it's not acceptable.
Bulls are stupid Animals!especially when Im short!
  • #1,743
  • May 13, 2012 7:46am May 13, 2012 7:46am
Quoting roughtrader
The problem with it is that it is unfair to just execute the margincut whenever they feel like just because it's Friday, it was atleast 1,5 hours and more left of trading time, they never gave me the chance to manage this my self. Plus I have to pay commission on five new trades I didn't make. This makes me mad. it is definitely a problem, It can be a substantial amount depending how large lot size. In my case it wasnt very large so Im going to let it slip, but it is still unfair. it also don't allow you to make any profit during the weekend, Im...
In fairness they are protecting themselves and their liabilities and also us from weekend gaps.

For example if you were long EUR last week at 50:1 or more you could have gone into negative equity on the open and the hedge is there to protect us.
  • #1,744
  • May 13, 2012 7:58am May 13, 2012 7:58am
Ask your self why they applied the margin cut, is it to protect traders money? Give me a brake, they wouldn't care less about your money, it's all about protecting their risk, which makes me wonder about their capital status, do they really not have the means to hedge all the traders positions? I would think they hedged all positions to protect their risk but apparantly that is not the case. So they make traders minimise risk for them by applying margincuts, thats smart and traders have to pay for it. Their only reason would be that our positions really are in the market and not just held in house wich is the only positive. But should we worry about their financial status? is Dukas having economical problems?
Bulls are stupid Animals!especially when Im short!
  • #1,745
  • May 13, 2012 8:05am May 13, 2012 8:05am
Quoting roughtrader
Ask your self why they applied the margin cut, is it to protect traders money? Give me a brake, they wouldn't care less about your money, it's all about protecting their risk, which makes me wonder about their capital status, do they really not have the means to hedge all the traders positions? I would think they hedged all positions to protect their risk but apparantly that is not the case. So they make traders minimise risk for them by applying margincuts, thats smart and traders have to pay for it. Their only reason would be that our positions...
I'm pretty sure I said they did it to protect themselves but sure whatever.

They do in fact want us to be successful traders, there is no reason for them to want otherwise. If we have more capital to trade with their revenue will rise via commission's.

Also I Don't believe that I am disadvantaged by the margin cut, I get more profit in most cases and if not then I get just the same. I really don't see a problem with it.

Thier economic status has nothing to do with it, if you had a 1,000,000 EURUSD long last friday levered 100:1 at 1.31 (13,100 USD of margin), then the opening gap to 1.2955 would mean you have a 14,500 USD loss and so you would have an account of -1,500 USD. You would owe that to dukascopy and they hedge so YOU don't ever have to be in that position.
  • #1,746
  • May 13, 2012 8:30am May 13, 2012 8:30am
It's really a matter of the distance between the entry price of the client position(s) and the market price during Friday afternoon. To fully hedge positions that are 300+ pips away from the Friday afternoon prices doesn't make much sense. However, it doesn't make sense to not fully hedge highly leveraged positions with a entry price close to late Friday prices either.
  • #1,747
  • May 13, 2012 8:33am May 13, 2012 8:33am
Quoting Trader915
It's really a matter of the distance between the entry price of the client position(s) and the market price during Friday afternoon. To fully hedge positions that are 300+ pips away from the Friday afternoon prices doesn't make much sense. However, it doesn't make sense to not fully hedge highly leveraged positions with a entry price close to late Friday prices either.
I have never been fully hedged, The only way that is possible is to be in a heavily losing position which MUST mean it is far from Friday's close.

Secondly, you nor Dukascopy know whether or not the "gap" on their platform is going to be 1 pip or 250 pips. So they are just controlling risk.
  • #1,748
  • May 13, 2012 10:13am May 13, 2012 10:13am
Quoting JeremyWS
I have never been fully hedged, The only way that is possible is to be in a heavily losing position which MUST mean it is far from Friday's close.
You may never been fully hedged but apparently that's what happened to Roughtrader and since he's referring to missing out on potential profit he probably wasn't in a losing position.


Quoting roughtrader
it also don't allow you to make any profit during the weekend, Yes it was a complete hedge making me intirely flat in the market, wich also was overkill, they didnt have to make me totally flat, it would have been enough to just open 3 hedge positions and I would have been well enough within the margin and it would have enabled me to make some profit during the weekend,
Quoting JeremyWS
Secondly, you nor Dukascopy know whether or not the "gap" on their platform is going to be 1 pip or 250 pips. So they are just controlling risk.
I'm referring to a similar practice used by market makers to display more liquidity on the sell side when in fact they believe prices are going higher. Anything can happen in the marketplace, it's been well documented. My point is this: this business is built upon probability and the probability of a 20-50 pip gap is considerably higher than one of 300 pips.
  • #1,749
  • May 13, 2012 2:49pm May 13, 2012 2:49pm
Quoting JeremyWS
I got a message on JForex saying that the 30:1 weekend leverage would be initiated.
yeah but in europe with the new 1:200 leverage it is now equal to 1:60
  • #1,750
  • May 13, 2012 3:03pm May 13, 2012 3:03pm
Quoting Trader915
You may never been fully hedged but apparently that's what happened to Roughtrader and since he's referring to missing out on potential profit he probably wasn't in a losing position.






I'm referring to a similar practice used by market makers to display more liquidity on the sell side when in fact they believe prices are going higher. Anything can happen in the marketplace, it's been well documented. My point is this: this business is built upon probability and the probability of a 20-50 pip gap is considerably higher than one of 300...
He would have only been fully hedged if he was already in a huge losing position. In which case he should be VERY thankful for the protection over the weekend.
  • #1,751
  • May 14, 2012 1:29am May 14, 2012 1:29am
Quoting JeremyWS
He would have only been fully hedged if he was already in a huge losing position. In which case he should be VERY thankful for the protection over the weekend.

Quoting roughtrader
Yes it was a complete hedge making me intirely flat in the market, wich also was overkill, they didnt have to make me totally flat, it would have been enough to just open 3 hedge positions and I would have been well enough within the margin and it would have enabled me to make some profit during the weekend, a gap down or whatever, in my case it's not a big deal economic, it's their behaviour Im getting mad at. And other traders can get hurt more than me, just because they make this a possibility, I think it's not acceptable.
Let's settle this. Where you in a winning or a losing position, roughtrader ?
  • #1,752
  • May 14, 2012 7:30am May 14, 2012 7:30am
Quoting Trader915
Let's settle this. Where you in a winning or a losing position, roughtrader ?
I can't remember exactly how many pips but about half of the trades where position trades I already had on for a cupple of days and they where well in profit, the 3 others where more short term swing trades intraday and I was planning to close out them before the weekend, they where in loss, in total on all positions I must have been in profit but I was so mad I closed them all out.
Bulls are stupid Animals!especially when Im short!
  • #1,753
  • May 14, 2012 8:16am May 14, 2012 8:16am
Here is the portfolio statement, it shows I was in profit,
not much money to brag about but I trade only micros so far.
didn't see the hedge trades in there so it seems I don't have to pay comission for them after all, I still think margin cut sux and they where executed to early not allowing me to profit for the remaider of time left for trading wich was atleast 1,5 hours.
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: portfolio statement.jpg Size: 44 KB
Bulls are stupid Animals!especially when Im short!
  • #1,754
  • May 14, 2012 8:26am May 14, 2012 8:26am
Well they still refuse to show all of their market depth to clients even though they claim to be an ECN. And their slippage still does not conform with all that great liquidity they claim to have.

Leaving Dukascopy as I find their liquidity model to be non-transparent. Too bad as I really liked their platform and Java API... But that's something less important to me.

Time to test the LMAX liquidity. It has grown nicely these days, and the spreads and slippage are already better than Dukascopy's.
  • #1,755
  • May 14, 2012 12:15pm May 14, 2012 12:15pm
Quoting Marv
Time to test the LMAX liquidity. It has grown nicely these days, and the spreads and slippage are already better than Dukascopy's.
LMAX has a great model, 10ms order matching guaranties minimal slippage do to the order routing..
  • #1,756
  • May 14, 2012 4:18pm May 14, 2012 4:18pm
Sorry Folks, but reading the last 10 pages here
you have to think Dukascopy is one of the worsest Broker ever,
although the opposite is the case.

Dukascopy is great, their Crew is well educated, fast and friendly,
the Forum is great, JForex is a verry nice platform, with fast execution.
They pay the rebates back fast and without problems and the .

Slippage is minimal, Spread is ok, it could be smaller but it alwys could be smaller, CFDs are comming and we will see what else..

And dont know whats going on..

Maybe you have to much time or like to make Broker hopping..

Im fine with them, and the Market Depth problem isnt a problem in my mind
even for me as a scalper. It would be nice to have it, but it would be also fine to have a Reuters Terminal for free..
How to opt out annoying user signatures ??
  • #1,757
  • May 15, 2012 4:43am May 15, 2012 4:43am
I think it's great you've finally found a broker that can live up to your low standards and execute your micro lots at any time without slippage. For me however, honesty and integrity is not optional.

Displaying misleading prices in the market depth area combined with the frequent slippage on smaller orders isn't congruent with the image Dukascopy portrays of itself as the most liquid ECN. They've put expectations on themselves by stating that their ECN is the most liquid. If their clients experience of Dukascopy isn't on par with the level of standard Dukascopy has set for itself, their honesty and integrity are going to be questioned.

The introduction of trading contests and the significantly smaller accounts they're willing to accept raises the concern that Dukascopy is moving away from the institutional world and more towards establishing themselves as the top retail broker around. There is also the very real possibility that Dukascopy has economic issues and are desperately trying to increase their revenue by lowering the account size they're willing to accept.

To sum it up: Anything can look good on paper. However, when the live experience fail to meet the high standards on paper, concerns are going to be raised. For smaller traders who want a safe broker (up to 100KCHF) and who doesn't care about honesty and integrity from their business partner I think Dukascopy would be a great fit.
  • #1,758
  • May 15, 2012 5:35am May 15, 2012 5:35am
Well said Trader915.
  • #1,759
  • Edited 7:18am May 15, 2012 7:00am | Edited 7:18am
Hi there,

i don't trade w/ Dukascopy for enough a long time to make my mind about it.

it seems to me that some of the observations on here are bias or at the very least not substantially founded, and some are well constructed.

I have come to realise that, w/ great probability, no broker is perfect, in the sense that if a trader wants real and immediate supply and demand, i.e. THE market, than it should get employed in the great investment banks.

I have concerns about dukascopy mainly in the charting software/order management and feed. Yesterday i had 4 diferent OHLC data in gbp/usd in 4 diferent brokers. And none of them coincided w/ reuters/bloomberg free data quote.

It is what it is.

This problem related to the books: showing the 10 levels doesn't help much and if they don't add up w/ the totals then even worst. But the fact is that the books move so fast in the more liquid pairs that they became of slighter importance.
There are pairs that even show only 3 or 4 offers, wich is most likely not true, for instance on carry trade pairs.

We should use Dukas for what is good for: partition of orders, in-chart trading, tight spreads (if market so determines, we hope), good costumer service; Swiss banking; not being a market maker.

They can improve:
1: limitation of time in orders (GoodTill...) - which is a very basic safety net that a broker must offer;

2: preventing launch of limit orders on failed stop orders (one has to be glued to the monitor to prevent them from doing that);

3: correct charting and data errors (no quotes on eurusd!!; moving trendlines; disapearing saved themes, etc).

4: increase leverage on weekends: 30:1 is very bad.

I have had no problem w/ standard lots but if they should arise than i would be seriously concerned.
  • #1,760
  • May 15, 2012 7:57am May 15, 2012 7:57am
Quoting Polkm
They can improve:
1: limitation of time in orders (GoodTill...) - which is a very basic safety net that a broker must offer;

2: preventing launch of limit orders on failed stop orders (one has to be glued to the monitor to prevent them from doing that);

3: correct charting and data errors (no quotes on eurusd!!; moving trendlines; disapearing saved themes, etc).

4: increase leverage on weekends: 30:1 is very bad.

They can definitely improve if they want to. Improving = Good for us = More clients for them. Win-win situation.

I second all the improvements you suggested, and add the following:

- Better and more transparent liquidity.

Look, you don't have to claim you have such a large liquidity network etc. and then fail to live up to those standards. Just show what liquidity you really have and work on improving it and everybody will be happy eventually. Better liquidity = Better spreads and slippage. I'm sorry to say they don't have the best offering in that area. Just go take a look at some of the offerings out there (LMAX, Currenex, etc). Totally visible market depth, great execution, great/natural/non-weird slippage, and as for the spreads (normal market hours) I'm looking at the LMAX EURUSD spreads right now and they're between 0 and 0.6 pips, yep I've seen a 0. (and Currenex is as good)

Good customer service? Sure, except when they ignore your emails (especially when you're already a client with your funds already deposited. Replies become slower then.)

Swiss regulation? I admit that's great, but it comes at the price of the account opening process being a hassle compared to other well-regulated brökers. Gotta admit that too.

@Toranaga: I'm not into bröker hopping. I joined Dukascopy to live-test it because I was quite curious, I said this from the beginning. I do like testing and reviewing serious brökers.

My conclusion in a nutshell:

Good bröker for sure.

My favorite thing about it: The proprietary platform with it's free Java API (one of the best proprietary platform offerings I've seen), and the Swiss environment. Swing and long-term traders with charting needs (and who don't worship MT4) will be happy.

My least favorite thing about it: It's not among the top and most transparent offerings out there liquidity-wise. Scalpers and day traders who care about liquidity and the integrity of their bröker's liquidity model should really consider other offerings before joining Dukascopy.
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