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  • #1,721
  • Edited 12:00pm May 8, 2012 9:40am | Edited 12:00pm
is someone else having troubble login to Jforex today?
could be on my end but I was in earlyer today,
edit; working again, probably just a glitch
Bulls are stupid Animals!especially when Im short!
  • #1,722
  • Edited 6:34am May 12, 2012 5:27am | Edited 6:34am
Hi,

Has anyone received a valid explanation for the inaccurate information displayed in the market depth area ?

I'm referring to the fact that on the top of the market depth area where the total amount of liquidity is displayed next to a red/green price (depending on whether it's the sell/buy side) doesn't match the numbers in the order book. A snapshot from the Asian session states that there is 82.5M available on the sell side at 1.29324 and 82.8M available on the buy side at 1.29378. Now, if we take a look at the order book it tells a different story.

Lets start with the buy side. 82.8M should be available at 1.29378 according to the top of the market depth, if this is true the added volume of the prices between 1.29356-1.29378 would add up to 82.8M. In reality when adding the prices and available liquidity between 356-378 the liquidity only adds up to 35,4M, which is almost 50M less than stated. If we add all the prices and liquidity in the order book we get 77.8M at a price of 1.29385 which would put a 82.8M order in the 386-389 area instead of the stated 378.

On the sell side it's the same story. Instead of there being 82.5M available at 1.29324 there is only 46,4M available. If we add all the prices and liquidity in the order book we get 77M at 1.29319 which would put a 82.5M order in the 318-316 area instead of the stated 324.

To state a price for the available liquidity that's far better than in reality is misleading and dishonest, something I might have expected from a bucketshop but certainly not from Dukascopy. The only valid reason I could find for the misleading prices is that they're attempting to make their order book look more liquid than it actually is. After many unanswered emails I finally got a response that "this is the average price for a 82,8M order". I then went through the same process with them as I did here showing them that it's not the average price for a 82,8M order, it's actually the average price for a 35M order which is very misleading and I haven't heard from them since.

Don't take it from me, take a snapshot yourself then add the numbers and you will see they don't add up. With modified prices anyone can claim to have the largest ECN, which ironically is exactly what Dukascopy claims to have.
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  • #1,723
  • May 12, 2012 8:17am May 12, 2012 8:17am
Hey... i'll make this short and sweet.... Im trading demo with dukas, in the beginning if i buy or sell at a certain price on major currencies in volatile markets , that price price was given with a 0-2pip difference... but now its 20-30 or more difference... is this called slippage ?? or will this be dukas playing with the mark up on top of their commission... btw at the time of the trades the pip spread is under 1 or 2 depending on currency.....

why is this happening... your thoughts please?
  • #1,724
  • Edited 2:32pm May 12, 2012 9:51am | Edited 2:32pm
Quoting Trader915
To state a price for the available liquidity that's far better than in reality is misleading and dishonest
Let's start with: Did you contact them about this before jumping to conclusions? and if so what did they say?

Guys, when you have a problem with a bröker always talk to them first (that's what customer support is for) and try some troubleshooting or getting a legitimate explanation. If they fail to fix the problem or if their answer does not satisfy then you can post about it in forums to warn other traders, not the other way around (i.e. bitching online and then contacting them).

I see the Market Depth area in your screenshot is full. There might be a limit in JForex on how much data that area can display (i.e. it doesn't "expand" when there is more data than it can display). To rule that out, could you post a screenshot where the Market Depth table is not full but still inaccurate? If that is the problem however, then perhaps they should fix it in the next version of JForex by forcing the Market Depth table to auto-expand when there is data beyond its maximum size.

Do let us know what they have to say about this.
  • #1,725
  • May 12, 2012 10:02am May 12, 2012 10:02am
First time i saw the Market depth i was pleased but
after testing it a day, i decided, crap and has no value..

If you aren't Deutsche Bank,
you dont have a real Market Depth so kick it.

Easy..
How to opt out annoying user signatures ??
  • #1,726
  • May 12, 2012 10:15am May 12, 2012 10:15am
Dukascopy market depth is not relevant....
It's just advertizing....

People that comment market depth...
In OTC Fx market...
aren't real traders.

only relevant info is a depth in EBS, Reuters and other inst platforms...
and even then this is irrelevant...
because you also need T&S...
that, as it was said, only major banks see like Deutsche Bank
  • #1,727
  • Edited 10:31am May 12, 2012 10:18am | Edited 10:31am
Quoting Toranaga
If you aren't Deutsche Bank,
you dont have a real Market Depth
Nonsense.

Either you're an ECN (be it tier 1, tier 2, or retail) or you're not an ECN at all. If you are, then you have market depth data that you can (and should) display. It's not something only major banks/platforms have. Please educate yourself on the multi-tier ECN market microstructure before posting nonsense.
  • #1,728
  • Edited 10:33am May 12, 2012 10:25am | Edited 10:33am
Quoting Rikers
Dukascopy market depth is not relevant....
It's just advertizing....

People that comment market depth...
In OTC Fx market...
aren't real traders.

only relevant info is a depth in EBS, Reuters and other inst platforms...
and even then this is irrelevant...
because you also need T&S...
that, as it was said, only major banks see like Deutsche Bank
Hmm, I think I know what you meant by "relevant info" and the necessity of T&S.

FYI, a Forex ECN's Market Depth data is used to see how much liquidity is currently available (for executing your orders) in your bröker's particular network, not to predict price.
  • #1,729
  • May 12, 2012 10:29am May 12, 2012 10:29am
Quoting Marv
FYI, a Forex ECN's Market Depth data is used to see how much liquidity is currently available (for executing your orders), not to predict price.
BINGO!
FXGears.com
  • #1,730
  • Edited 11:29am May 12, 2012 11:06am | Edited 11:29am
Quoting Marv
Let's start with: Did you contact them about this before jumping to conclusions? and if so what did they say? Maybe they have a legitimate explanation. If they don't, then we can draw some conclusions.

For example, the Market Depth area in your screenshot seems full, there might be a limit in JForex on how much data that are can display (i.e. it doesn't "expand" when there is more data than it can display). If that is the case, then perhaps they should fix this in the next version of JForex.

Let us know what they have to say about...
Marv,

I'm not in the habit of making empty accusations. As I've stated in my original post I contacted them about this contradictory information and the response where that this is the average price for the "full available liquidity".

According to Dukascopy there is a 10 level market depth limit to the Jforex platform and only through API will you be able to see all the available levels. I doubt this is the issue since there are ask levels in the order book that are above the green displayed price (9,38M at 379 and 33M at 385). If this wasn't a liquidity issue but rather a level display issue the last level in the order book would be 47M at 378, not 33M at 385.

Quoting Rikers
Dukascopy market depth is not relevant....
It's just advertizing....
Rikers,

In most instances it's hard if not impossible to prove whether your broker is honest or not. Sure, slippage on small orders might cause traders to voice their displeasure with their broker but there is no clear cut evidence (if we exclude 100+ pip spikes). In this case the numbers are right in front of you and they say it all.
  • #1,731
  • May 12, 2012 11:10am May 12, 2012 11:10am
Quoting Marv
Nonsense.

Either you're an ECN (be it tier 1, tier 2, or retail) or you're not an ECN at all. If you are, then you have market depth data that you can (and should) display. It's not something only major banks/platforms have. Please educate yourself on the multi-tier ECN market microstructure before posting nonsense.
yep, and thats the reason why it works as i could read..

'multi-tier ECN market microstructure'
wow, must be some secret elite knowledge..
Could you explain more, but only if The Master allows you to tell me the secret?

Does it also make me better to bake bread ?


btw. you lead with nonsence

blah..

Edit: And by the way, why are you so rude ?
Had a bad Friday ?
Because of lack of REAL MD ??
How to opt out annoying user signatures ??
  • #1,732
  • May 12, 2012 7:01pm May 12, 2012 7:01pm
Im really pissed at Dukascopy atm, I finally made up my mind about the weekend margincuts. I think this margin cut during weekends is going way out of hand, I had five positions in the market on friday, I was planning to close out three of them before the market close to maintain the margin requirements,these where going my way so I wanted to let them run as far as possible, GREED! but it turned out Dukascopy beat me to it by hedging all the positions a VERY long before closing time, I first noticed this at 20:30 when I got back after being away from the computer. five new positions had been entered in my acount by Dukascopy I have to pay commission on them to I guess, I atleast had 1,5hours to manage the trades before close. Dukascopy needs to set a time limit before they go in to mess with trades like this and let us traders know about it, 15 minutes before closing time is acceptable, but NOT! when there atleast still is 1,5 hours left of trading time! Unfair! There will be no more trading on fridays until I know exactly what time the margincut will be executed.
Bulls are stupid Animals!especially when Im short!
  • #1,733
  • Edited 9:36pm May 12, 2012 8:15pm | Edited 9:36pm
Quoting Toranaga
'multi-tier ECN market microstructure'
wow, must be some secret elite knowledge..
Not really, it's all pretty simple. You don't read about it here though because most retailers don't bother talk about something actually important like liquidity and prefer to talk about TA and indicators instead.

Quoting Toranaga
Edit: And by the way, why are you so rude ?
Had a bad Friday ?
Because of lack of REAL MD ??
haha I realize I can sound like an internet dick sometimes. Nothing personal though. I'm nicer in person.

Quoting Trader915
According to Dukascopy there is a 10 level market depth limit to the Jforex platform and only through API will you be able to see all the available levels.
The FIX API?

So they're basically saying deposit 100,000 bucks with us or we won't show you the entire market depth?

That's it, I'm calling bullshit on this one.

If they claim to be a real ECN, the entire market depth should be made visible to traders like any reputable ECN, otherwise this opens the door to all kinds of false claims regarding their liquidity and manipulation of slippage with zero chance of them ever getting caught.

Add this to the fact that their slippage indeed never seems to go in your favor. I can already think of two possibilities:

1) This is not as big an ECN as it claims to be (big as in having big liquidity), which would partly explain the slippage (namely on small orders).
2) It's deliberately trying to gain an unfair advantage over its retail traders.

Dukascopy's got some explaining to do. If you do contact them again, please point them to this discussion.

To sum up:

We want complete visibility of market depth data and a serious explanation regarding the negative slippage occurrences that far exceed positive slippage occurrences, which is not natural for a true ECN. Otherwise I'm moving on, and will from here on consider this bröker non-transparent and untrustworthy.
  • #1,734
  • May 12, 2012 8:57pm May 12, 2012 8:57pm
wtf marv, you gotta be delusional about this stuff...

90% of trades don't go above best bid/offer...
bid/offer has a positive slippage tendency....
market offer has negative by design....
nobody cares about market depth data....
because no one hits nowhere close to the full depth....
and you should be stupid to not break down your orders in size...
not to mention the 200ms order routing time to other ecn...

To sum up:

retail is always getting fucked and no one cares what you think
why? bcs you have no money
  • #1,735
  • May 12, 2012 9:27pm May 12, 2012 9:27pm
Quoting Rikers
bid/offer has a positive slippage tendency....
market offer has negative by design....
Slippage can be positive as it can be negative. In the long run it should balance out.

With Dukascopy it's always negative.

Quoting Rikers
nobody cares about market depth data....
You mean you don't. You probably don't even care if it's a bucketshop instead of the big ECN it claims to be.

We do.

Quoting Rikers
because no one hits nowhere close to the full depth....
and you should be stupid to not break down your orders in size...
not to mention the 200ms order routing time to other ecn...
None of that is the issue here.

Quoting Rikers
To sum up:

retail is always getting fucked and no one cares what you think
why? bcs you have no money
Typical sucker mentality that I refuse to subscribe to.

Got any more valuable input on the issue?
  • #1,736
  • May 13, 2012 4:05am May 13, 2012 4:05am
Quoting roughtrader
I first noticed this at 20:30 when I got back after being away from the computer. five new positions had been entered in my acount by Dukascopy I have to pay commission on them to I guess
Did they scale down the size your original positions or did they actually enter new positions at new prices ? I definitely hope the first option and even if it's the latter option you shouldn't have to pay commission for something you didn't initiate.

I'm a swing trader and although I haven't gotten my positions reduced due to the 30:1 weekend margin requirement I can imagine the frustrations of finally having built up a major profitable position only to see half of it disappear due to the weekend requirements. Anything less than 50:1 isn't good enough when there is 100:1 offered on normal market hours.

Quoting Marv
The FIX API?

So they're basically saying deposit 100,000 bucks with us or we won't show you the entire market depth?

That's it, I'm calling bullshit on this one.

If they claim to be a real ECN, the entire market depth should be made visible to traders like any reputable ECN, otherwise this opens the door to all kinds of false claims regarding their liquidity and manipulation of slippage with zero chance of them ever getting caught.

Add this to the fact that their slippage indeed never seems to go in your favor. I can already think...

You will only be able to view the first 10 levels on the Jforex platform. According to Dukascopy the "full" market depth is still there for your to trade on, you just won't be able to see it.

I can vouch for the fact that I've received slippage on orders I wouldn't have expected to receive slippage on (during normal market conditions), orders who where smaller than the 1-1.6M liquidity available withing the spread.

Recently I requested a demo of LCG Currenex platform to compare with Dukascopys Jforex platform. I placed the two platforms order panels next to each other on the E/U, took a screenshot and conclusion where:

- Dukascopys order book displayed more liquidity, especially in the 100M+ range. However since the green/red prices doesn't represent reality the true difference is actually marginal.
- LCG had on average 0.3 pip better spread than Dukascopy (the best spread I've seen by far of any broker for that matter, sometimes as low as 0.3. To bad they've had a couple of lawsuits against them.....).
  • #1,737
  • May 13, 2012 4:15am May 13, 2012 4:15am
Quoting roughtrader
Im really pissed at Dukascopy atm, I finally made up my mind about the weekend margincuts. I think this margin cut during weekends is going way out of hand, I had five positions in the market on friday, I was planning to close out three of them before the market close to maintain the margin requirements,these where going my way so I wanted to let them run as far as possible, GREED! but it turned out Dukascopy beat me to it by hedging all the positions a VERY long before closing time, I first noticed this at 20:30 when I got back after being away...

6PM GMT - Plus I don't see the problem with the margin cut, it is a partial hedge which you can close right on the open on sunday, Regardless of whether price goes up or down your overall profit on a trade is hardly changed.
  • #1,738
  • May 13, 2012 5:35am May 13, 2012 5:35am
in the past there was a warning message that weekend margin policy will start here at 18:30 (gmt+1) which appeared some minutes before it

this friday i did not notice this message at all but i noticed that they increased weekend margin too ... at least now i can handle 3 to 4 open positions and still under 20%
  • #1,739
  • May 13, 2012 6:14am May 13, 2012 6:14am
Quoting torkay77
in the past there was a warning message that weekend margin policy will start here at 18:30 (gmt+1) which appeared some minutes before it

this friday i did not notice this message at all but i noticed that they increased weekend margin too ... at least now i can handle 3 to 4 open positions and still under 20%
I got a message on JForex saying that the 30:1 weekend leverage would be initiated.
  • #1,740
  • May 13, 2012 6:36am May 13, 2012 6:36am
Quoting Trader915
Did they scale down the size your original positions or did they actually enter new positions at new prices ? I definitely hope the first option and even if it's the latter option you shouldn't have to pay commission for something you didn't initiate.
no they didn't touch my original positions,
They opened five new positions' I had five shorts and they opened five longs'
Bulls are stupid Animals!especially when Im short!
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