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  • #2,241
  • Apr 11, 2012 6:57am Apr 11, 2012 6:57am
Quoting sue23
It's interesting to see how you have added your own spin on trading the CZs. Could you elaborate a little more on how you use the martingale strategy with the trades? I see a lot of posts on these forums that are very negative about that kind of money management. I've never used it, but I'd rather keep an open mind. I was taught to use a tight stop and a wide take profit, but my 'teacher' was very much a trend strategist, so i realise different rules may apply.

Did you use your martingale strategy to get yourself out of the earlier losing trade...
Before i open a trade, i always look at the average daily or weekly range. from there i divide into 4. From here i use that range as my stop loss. Meaning if i have 4 loss trade then i loss the whole daily range.

Here i use my martingale second level. if i lost another 4 times then i use martingale level 3.

From my experience with this system. IT'S VERY RARELY for me to reach my 3 level of martingale. So martingale is just fine for me so far. In fact i don't even remember having so many consecutive losses.

Bear in mind, i'm a martingale lover. I combine this strategy with so many system and yet this system is the best so far. Martingale if you doubled each time you loss will be very very dangerous. THat's why i combined this with RANGE MARTINGALE STRATEGY.

Sometimes if i'm confident with the trade, if i loss 2 times i already use my martingale. Everything is vary from one pair to another.

Hope you get the idea.

Cheers,
Risk Less Gain More, Trade Less Make More
  • #2,242
  • Apr 11, 2012 7:14am Apr 11, 2012 7:14am
Quoting bullbearies
Before i open a trade, i always look at the average daily or weekly range. from there i divide into 4. From here i use that range as my stop loss. Meaning if i have 4 loss trade then i loss the whole daily range.

Here i use my martingale second level. if i lost another 4 times then i use martingale level 3.

From my experience with this system. IT'S VERY RARELY for me to reach my 3 level of martingale. So martingale is just fine for me so far. In fact i don't even remember having so many consecutive losses.

Bear in mind, i'm a martingale...
hi bullbearies

about MM , am i right ??

if your first lot is 0.1 , then your first four order is 0.1 , and if hit four time SL in row you start 0.2 lot four second four order
1st order : 0.1
2nd order : 0.1
3rd order : 0.1
4th order : 0.1

5th order : 0.2
6th order : 0.2
7th order : 0.2
8th order : 0.2
...

tnx
  • #2,243
  • Apr 11, 2012 7:17am Apr 11, 2012 7:17am
Quoting r_alireza85
hi bullbearies

about MM , am i right ??

if your first lot is 0.1 , then your first four order is 0.1 , and if hit four time SL in row you start 0.2 lot four second four order
1st order : 0.1
2nd order : 0.1
3rd order : 0.1
4th order : 0.1

5th order : 0.2
6th order : 0.2
7th order : 0.2
8th order : 0.2
...

tnx
You got it right!!!!
Risk Less Gain More, Trade Less Make More
  • #2,244
  • Apr 11, 2012 8:32am Apr 11, 2012 8:32am
Quoting bullbearies
Before i open a trade, i always look at the average daily or weekly range. from there i divide into 4. From here i use that range as my stop loss. Meaning if i have 4 loss trade then i loss the whole daily range.

Here i use my martingale second level. if i lost another 4 times then i use martingale level 3.

From my experience with this system. IT'S VERY RARELY for me to reach my 3 level of martingale. So martingale is just fine for me so far. In fact i don't even remember having so many consecutive losses.

Bear in mind, i'm a martingale...
Wow, that is a really interesting money management strategy. I haven't read or seen anyone using that kind of thing before. I think I'll have to ponder over that for the next couple of days before I get my head around it.

When would you drop back to using your standard position size? Does that happen when you have traded back to break-even, before the string of four losses?

Thank you for replying so quickly to my questions. It's a big help.

Sue
  • #2,245
  • Apr 11, 2012 8:46am Apr 11, 2012 8:46am
1-3-2-4 gambling system (http://www.fortunepalace.co.uk/1324.html)
Politics is the womb in which war develops.
  • #2,246
  • Apr 11, 2012 9:03am Apr 11, 2012 9:03am
Quoting sue23
Wow, that is a really interesting money management strategy. I haven't read or seen anyone using that kind of thing before. I think I'll have to ponder over that for the next couple of days before I get my head around it.

When would you drop back to using your standard position size? Does that happen when you have traded back to break-even, before the string of four losses?

Thank you for replying so quickly to my questions. It's a big help.

Sue
This Martingale system comes from a man who got banned over and over again from one broker to another. So if you can get a grip of this system you will get banned too. LOL

When i think i have enough profit for the day or feel like going out to refresh myself. Then i quit. Don't be surprise if you have the whole month of winning days!!!!

To give you an idea i normally do this .............

example : Pair XAUUSD , Daily Range 3000 pips / 4 = 750 pips.

then 750 pips is the size of your box. If you feel like to use the the whole box as your stop loss then if you loose 4 times then you start martingale. If you use half of the box if you loose 8 times then you start martingale. Got it until here???

Take Profit ..... If the price move into your direction the same range as your losses POINT B, move your SL to breakeven. If it move another 25 % from the BEP the you lock your profit to point B and on and on everytime you have another 25% move. Got it until here???

Now for another option for the TP...... Since i don't play only on one pair, i use global Loss or profit. As soon and i have enough or sometimes an hour before a BIG IMPACT news i close it. At this point i ALWAYS have pips in my pocket.

I do this because i have another strategy for the big impact news.

Hope it helps,


Cheers,
Risk Less Gain More, Trade Less Make More
  • #2,247
  • Apr 11, 2012 12:28pm Apr 11, 2012 12:28pm
Quoting bullbearies
example : Pair XAUUSD , Daily Range 3000 pips / 4 = 750 pips.

then 750 pips is the size of your box. If you feel like to use the the whole box as your stop loss then if you loose 4 times then you start martingale. If you use half of the box if you loose 8 times then you start martingale. Got it until here???
Thanks so much for this detailed reply. Your money management system is fascinating! The only thing I have used before is 1% or 2% fixed stop loss, but I can see how with a system like this you need something a bit more sophisticated to deal with false break-outs (although I know they are not called that here!)

Where does the size of the CZ fit into the plan? Does that just define the entry points? I noticed that earlier you said you used the middle of the CZ as your stop loss position, so how does that work with the daily range?

Quoting bullbearies
Take Profit ..... If the price move into your direction the same range as your losses POINT B, move your SL to breakeven. If it move another 25 % from the BEP the you lock your profit to point B and on and on everytime you have another 25% move. Got it until here???
Sorry, I'm not quite sure what you mean by, "same range as your losses POINT B". Do you mean when the current trade has made enough profit to account for all the earlier losses? Or something else? If you are on trade three (original position size) and have had two earlier losing trades, do you mean the point where the third trade has moved twice the stop loss distance? I understand that you then use a trailing stop, 25% at a time, but not sure what POINT B refers to.

Quoting bullbearies
Now for another option for the TP...... Since i don't play only on one pair, i use global Loss or profit. As soon and i have enough or sometimes an hour before a BIG IMPACT news i close it. At this point i ALWAYS have pips in my pocket.
That makes a lot of sense. How are you setting your position size with a money management strategy like this? What I mean is, what % of your account would you risk for your initial stop loss? Sorry if that is an obvious question. I'm just not sure how you would take into consideration the increase in position size for the later trades.

Looking forward to understanding this better and trying it out on demo.

Last question, (I promise!): does anyone have any idea why my buffer lines keep disappearing? I removed the indicator file, re-installed and re-started Metatrader, but it's still the same. They stay on for a while, then off they go! It's not a big deal, just wondering if it's a common issue or whether my software is at fault. By the way, it's on Windows 7 and I installed Metatrader on the C drive, not in the programs folder as read somewhere that can cause problems.

Sue
  • #2,248
  • Apr 11, 2012 1:15pm Apr 11, 2012 1:15pm
Quoting sue23
Thanks so much for this detailed reply. Your money management system is fascinating! The only thing I have used before is 1% or 2% fixed stop loss, but I can see how with a system like this you need something a bit more sophisticated to deal with false break-outs (although I know they are not called that here!)

Where does the size of the CZ fit into the plan? Does that just define the entry points? I noticed that earlier you said you used the middle of the CZ as your stop loss position, so how does that work with the daily range?


Sorry, I'm not...
http://i39.tinypic.com/14bi54k.jpg

from the picture above you will see that the box is about 1/4 of the daily range. with the stop loss right in the middle.

First time the price move one box in your favor, you move your stop loss to BEP , then if the price move again one more box you move your SL also to the next box and again to the box over and over again.

Positioning size ....... i always start with the smallest lot. and keep increasing if i think it's necessary. It's regardless my Balance. i always start with the same lot. The % of the risk is based on the range, regardless my Balance also.

If you play many pairs and use martingale you better make sure you have enough balance. And yes ... i play many pairs and my balance is more than enough to hold my losses until the winning take over the position.

If your balance is not enough to hold losses until like 5 times of daily range than i recommend you to stick to one pair of forex. Don't play with gold, oil and silver as they are known for the ranging pair but once you master their moves and the system you will love these pairs.

I hope that help

Cheers
Risk Less Gain More, Trade Less Make More
  • #2,249
  • Apr 11, 2012 1:59pm Apr 11, 2012 1:59pm
Quoting bullbearies
http://i39.tinypic.com/14bi54k.jpg

from the picture above you will see that the box is about 1/4 of the daily range. with the stop loss right in the middle.

If your balance is not enough to hold losses until like 5 times of daily range than i recommend you to stick to one pair of forex. Don't play with gold, oil and silver as they are known for the ranging pair but once you master their moves and the system you will love these pairs.

I hope that help

Cheers
It sure does help a lot! Thanks for putting that diagram together. Explains it perfectly.

Sue
  • #2,250
  • Apr 11, 2012 1:59pm Apr 11, 2012 1:59pm
Quoting fxspin
Ok - Here is what I am thinking

The EA will be using the squalou indicator as is for now. I think it will allow people to easily mod the EA when they want to play with it. I will need to make some changes to it though.

The first cut of the EA will be pretty basic since most of the params are in the indi. It will open and close trades based on a fixed sl/tp. I will be removing a bunch settings in the indi to make the EA more readable. Most of these settings are the cosmetic ones so it show not affect your trading params.

People can send...
Hi,

Didn't post here from some time.

You cannot use sq indicator as is. You have to either fix the zero division or to remove the stats part.

My back-tests and optimization doesn't look promising so I didn't spend too much time on this. Year 2010 was almost flat, some small profit on 2011.

My best SL on EurUSD resulted after optimization was 20 pips.

I tried different exit strategies, BE+ Trailing stop MA etc and I couldn't find a winning one.
  • #2,251
  • Apr 11, 2012 7:29pm Apr 11, 2012 7:29pm
Quoting bullbearies
from the picture above you will see that the box is about 1/4 of the daily range. with the stop loss right in the middle.

First time the price move one box in your favor, you move your stop loss to BEP , then if the price move again one more box you move your SL also to the next box and again to the box over and over again.

Positioning size ....... i always start with the smallest lot. and keep increasing if i think it's....
Bullberries, this is a very reasonable way to approach the market. Congrats on figuring out a method that feels right to you.
To improve is to change. To perfect, is to change often.
  • #2,252
  • Apr 11, 2012 8:58pm Apr 11, 2012 8:58pm
Quoting forexhard
Bullberries, this is a very reasonable way to approach the market. Congrats on figuring out a method that feels right to you.

Cool!!! Glad i can share it.
Risk Less Gain More, Trade Less Make More
  • #2,253
  • Edited 9:23am Apr 12, 2012 3:25am | Edited 9:23am
HI there!

I want to congratulate ForexHard for the thread and how you conducted to the perfect teaching method.

I have read the entire thread in the last week. I don't use the SQ indicator, i like to draw by hand the CZ's and move back and forth. I want to master this technique and that is not possible by following blindly an indicator.

I can identify myself with this kind of trading, and want to thank again ForexHard to have opened my eyes.

Only putting yourself the work on it, CZ after CZ you will be able to achieve positive results. It takes a lot more than a week or a month to master this, so one have to be patience and pick our sweet spots. Quality over Quantity.

It's so easy it's hard! Best thread i ever read on FF.

For last, i share a really good CZ in G/U
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: g_u.gif Size: 10 KB
  • #2,254
  • Apr 12, 2012 3:29am Apr 12, 2012 3:29am
Quoting bullbearies
Positioning size ....... i always start with the smallest lot. and keep increasing if i think it's necessary. It's regardless my Balance. i always start with the same lot. The % of the risk is based on the range, regardless my Balance also.
Hi Bullbearies - I've was thinking last night about ways to apply your Martingale technique in different ways. Specifically, ways to minimise the multiplication of the position size but still generate the same profit.

I created a spreadsheet with an example (I have attached a screen capture). The 'risk %' row refers to the % of the account represented by the stop loss. The bottom row shows a standard martingale sequence and the line above, 'profit factor' shows the amount of profit which the risk, stop loss and take profit generates as a multiple of the original trade. Matching the two bottom rows means the trade would generate the same profit as a standard martingale sequence (assuming you kept the stop loss and take profit the same). It shows how you can go to level five with a quarter of the risk, by slowly changing the stop and profit targets at the same time.

The values I have used won't be optimal, but I think this type of system could be useful with this strategy because the money management complements what price tends to do around the CZs (at least as far as I have seen from manually drawing the boxes). In other words, the longer it stays around the CZ, the more it tends to move away, and move away quickly without looking back and hitting the stop.

Anyway, just thought I'd throw it out there in case it triggers anyone else's ideas. Would be interesting to hear if someone else is already using this kind of strategy.

Thanks again for getting my brain working with these new ideas!

Sue
Attached Image
  • #2,255
  • Apr 12, 2012 3:36am Apr 12, 2012 3:36am
Quoting sconcha
Quality over Quantity.
I couldn't agree more. I only had time to play with the indicator settings for a couple of hours yesterday, but I did notice a difference between the quality of the CZs that form when you have 2 per week and when you have 3 or 4 per week. When I say, 'quality', I mean that the price whips around less and moves further away. I know it's been said a lot of times in this thread, but it is worth just picking the best ones.

Then again, with all the money management ideas floating around my head today, I can see how the less than optimal CZs could be profitable too.

Sue
  • #2,256
  • Apr 12, 2012 4:45am Apr 12, 2012 4:45am
Quoting sue23
Hi Bullbearies - I've was thinking last night about ways to apply your Martingale technique in different ways. Specifically, ways to minimise the multiplication of the position size but still generate the same profit.

I created a spreadsheet with an example (I have attached a screen capture). The 'risk %' row refers to the % of the account represented by the stop loss. The bottom row shows a standard martingale sequence and the line above, 'profit factor' shows the amount of profit which the risk, stop loss and take profit generates as a multiple...
Hi sue,

The idea of martingale is to overcome the loss. If you have unlimited amount of balance. Then you can use every time you get loss.

My idea of martingale base on the daily or weekly range is simply because i want to minimize the risk of using regular / aggressive martingale strategy.

Even without using martingale strategy this stair step breakout system is still profitable. But the winning money might not as big as RANGE MARTINGALE.

So you better try it on demo first and see which one suit you best.

For me the range martingale even before i use the stair step breakout has been proven very profitable so far.

I use this for my high impact news trading also. But i know the average range of the news impact to the pair.

With this system the probability for you to catch a fish is very high. Sometimes you catch Tuna, sometimes baby fish or sometimes whales!!!. LOL but you will get it almost everyday!!!.

Hope this will give you idea,


Cheers,
Risk Less Gain More, Trade Less Make More
  • #2,257
  • Apr 12, 2012 5:50am Apr 12, 2012 5:50am
Quoting bullbearies
Hi sue,

The idea of martingale is to overcome the loss. If you have unlimited amount of balance. Then you can use every time you get loss.

My idea of martingale base on the daily or weekly range is simply because i want to minimize the risk of using regular / aggressive martingale strategy.

Even without using martingale strategy this stair step breakout system is still profitable. But the winning money might not as big as RANGE MARTINGALE.

So you better try it on demo first and see which one suit you best.

For me the range martingale...
It's given me so many ideas my head is swimming! ;-)

I haven't started properly demo trading this strategy, but I'll certainly be giving your method a try. I can see lots of potential in it.

Sue
  • #2,258
  • Apr 12, 2012 8:06am Apr 12, 2012 8:06am
The concept of progressive lot sizing is as old as the hills. I even use it myself some times. Some times. <--- Please understand that part of what I am saying. I do NOT use this tactic often, and I definitely do NOT recommend that anyone rely on a system of trading where Martingaling is a core element.

The key to any actual trading system is your market edge. Money Management alone is NEVER, under ANY circumstances, considered a proper edge in and of itself.

In our case, the CZ is our edge. We exploit the CZ's and the price action which follows them. This is our core, not progressive lot sizing.

It's only natural to want to discuss these kinds of things. Sort of like the naughty "forbidden fruit" thing happening I guess. I get it. I really do. But let's always keep in mind that unlike most other systems here at FF, we actually have an outstanding edge going for us in the form of our correct understanding of the CZ's. Never forget that. And please don't fall into the Martingale trap of replacing an actual edge with an image of one. At that point you cease being a trader. You might as well be feeding your cash into the nearest slot machine if all you're after is senseless thrill unencumbered by any actual training or responsibility.

As the OP and mentor of this thread it falls on me to make all of this crystal clear. There are already too many lies being spread about what we do around here. So there must not be any room for misunderstanding on this point: when used correctly progressive lot sizing can some times be helpful. But regular usage is not correct useage. So use it only very sparingly, and never think of it as a core element to your Stairstep trading that you will regularly turn to. If your trades are turning against you so often that Martingaling is the only way you can see a profit, then you need to stop what you are doing and start over from the beginning and re-learn what a true market edge is supposed to look like.
To improve is to change. To perfect, is to change often.
  • #2,259
  • Apr 12, 2012 9:41am Apr 12, 2012 9:41am
Quoting forexhard
The concept of progressive lot sizing is as old as the hills. I even use it myself some times. Some times. <--- Please understand that part of what I am saying. I do NOT use this tactic often, and I definitely do NOT recommend that anyone rely on a system of trading where Martingaling is a core element.

The key to any actual trading system is your market edge. Money Management alone is NEVER, under ANY circumstances, considered a proper edge in and of itself.

In our case, the CZ is our...
Sorry if my posts were too focussed on the money management strategy. I wasn't trying to suggest that I was going to trade the CZs blindly and just use the Martingale system to get me out of a hole. I should have stated that I'm just looking at it as an added extra.

Sue
  • #2,260
  • Apr 12, 2012 11:40am Apr 12, 2012 11:40am
Quoting sue23
Sorry if my posts were too focussed on the money management strategy. I wasn't trying to suggest that I was going to trade the CZs blindly and just use the Martingale system to get me out of a hole. I should have stated that I'm just looking at it as an added extra.

Sue
Please don't take it personally. I wasn't trying to give you a complex or anything. It's just that lately we've had guys posting lies about us in other threads, and one of those lies had to do with Martingaling. So it seemed like a disclaimer was in order, especially since an EA is in the works.
To improve is to change. To perfect, is to change often.
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