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MB Trading Futures - Introduction

  • #9,041
  • Feb 26, 2012 4:25pm Feb 26, 2012 4:25pm
Quoting egkid
Why this Spike?? I checked with other broker not find it
What the reason for it?

A few bad ticks at roll over. It happens from time to time. A good platform would allow you to exclude them.
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  • #9,042
  • Feb 27, 2012 12:44am Feb 27, 2012 12:44am
So i imagine it was possible to get stopped out if long on the bogus spike? If so, can i assume MB would refund the loss?

On a different note... I tried the release candidate for MB desktop pro... Nice to see a DOM but I think the charting for desktop pro sucks big time. The simplest task like drawing then adjusting trend line is a pain. The entire application needs a serious UI overhall. Most definetly not in the same league with Multi Charts.
  • #9,043
  • Feb 27, 2012 12:57am Feb 27, 2012 12:57am
Quoting mediaboy
So i imagine it was possible to get stopped out if long on the bogus spike? If so, can i assume MB would refund the loss?

On a different note... I tried the release candidate for MB desktop pro... Nice to see a DOM but I think the charting for desktop pro sucks big time. The simplest task like drawing then adjusting trend line is a pain. The entire application needs a serious UI overhall. Most definetly not in the same league with Multi Charts.
The quote server is separate form the order server. During rollover the quote server continues to run, but no trades can be executed because the order server is not running, hence the bad ticks seen from time to time at rollover are not executable, and no trades would trigger against them.

In addition, MB has a clearly erroneous trade policy that everyone should read and be aware of, because it has time limits that you must adhere to should you find yourself in need of making a claim. It is located here:

http://www.mbtrading.com/disclaimerCEP.aspx

AS far as the software... you are free to use a variety of applications, MultiCharts included (even the free version) with MB... I am glad to see MB's application maturing, but I don't plan on switching from NinjaTrader anytime soon.
  • #9,044
  • Feb 27, 2012 12:58am Feb 27, 2012 12:58am
Quoting egkid
Why this Spike?? I checked with other broker not find it
What the reason for it?
These spikes at rollover don't matter. They don't trigger trades. They are a function of the market turning off for rollover, some of the banks drop their quotes in increments. None of it affects trading. Totally a waste of topic.
  • #9,045
  • Feb 27, 2012 12:59am Feb 27, 2012 12:59am
Quoting mediaboy
So i imagine it was possible to get stopped out if long on the bogus spike? If so, can i assume MB would refund the loss?

On a different note... I tried the release candidate for MB desktop pro... Nice to see a DOM but I think the charting for desktop pro sucks big time. The simplest task like drawing then adjusting trend line is a pain. The entire application needs a serious UI overhall. Most definetly not in the same league with Multi Charts.
No, you can't get executed on those spikes at rollover. It's just quote junk.
  • #9,046
  • Feb 27, 2012 1:14am Feb 27, 2012 1:14am
Quoting Crassius
The quote server is separate form the order server. During rollover the quote server continues to run, but no trades can be executed because the order server is not running, hence the bad ticks seen from time to time at rollover are not executable, and no trades would trigger against them.

In addition, MB has a clearly erroneous trade policy that everyone should read and be aware of, because it has time limits that you must adhere to should you find yourself in need of making a claim. It is located here:

http://www.mbtrading.com/disclaimerCEP.aspx

AS...
Thanks for Fast and Clear Answer
I thought so but i was interested to listen to that and know more info about it.
I've been with MBT for years and so far all goes good.
  • #9,047
  • Feb 27, 2012 11:04am Feb 27, 2012 11:04am
Quoting jleblang
Traderduke,

I don’t even know what that is, please elaborate.
I was trying to get an answer as to why my EA Ichimku was being removed and restarted so on ..... but I've moved on so thanks anyway!
  • #9,048
  • Feb 27, 2012 11:12am Feb 27, 2012 11:12am
Its now 12:07 USA EST. I see Eur/usd quotes of 1.3371 (bid) .3372 (ask)

Everywhere else i see quotes of .3415

Also euro futures are are showing roughly .3414 last bid

What the heck is going on???


I am desktop pro... pay for limits.

I have never seen such a disparity in prices with MB between euro spot quotes elsewhere and euro futures. What the hell is going on!!!
  • #9,049
  • Feb 27, 2012 11:14am Feb 27, 2012 11:14am
Quoting mediaboy
Its now 12:07 USA EST. I see Eur/usd quotes of 1.3371 (bid) .3372 (ask)

Everywhere else i see quotes of .3415

Also euro futures are are showing roughly .3414 last bid

What the heck is going on???


I am desktop pro... pay for limits.

I have never seen such a disparity in prices with MB between euro spot quotes elsewhere and euro futures. What the hell is going on!!!

You have a local problem its 3413 here this second

Call tech support
  • #9,050
  • Feb 27, 2012 12:17pm Feb 27, 2012 12:17pm
Thanks Crassius problem totally on my end ...quick reboot cleared it up.

Sorry for the alarmist post.. I have never had any quote issues with MB before so i assume i was getting the shaft.

This is probably a bug with the new release candidate. Never seen such a delay on the production release of desktop

Again thanks for all the "free support" you provide on here...
  • #9,051
  • Feb 28, 2012 3:50pm Feb 28, 2012 3:50pm
I'd like to bring back the unanswered question of someone in this thread:

Why the spread for many pairs (EURUSD, USDCAD, EURCHF, ...) is lower with Free EXN ?

You can check this for yourself with http://www.fxintel.com/live/

Free EXN was explained as adding some pips to current interbank spread to make for commission. But it's opposite now, spreads are almost constantly lower with Free EXN. Has MBT become a true Market Maker and see some nice profits of this?
Now let's add to this 0.1 positions on PFL account to make spread lower than "true" but still higher than Free EXN. What happened with great broker of 2009 and 2010 (I'm almost 3 years with MBT)?
  • #9,052
  • Feb 28, 2012 5:04pm Feb 28, 2012 5:04pm
Quoting pavikogm
I'd like to bring back the unanswered question of someone in this thread:

Why the spread for many pairs (EURUSD, USDCAD, EURCHF, ...) is lower with Free EXN ?

You can check this for yourself with http://www.fxintel.com/live/

Free EXN was explained as adding some pips to current interbank spread to make for commission. But it's opposite now, spreads are almost constantly lower with Free EXN. Has MBT become a true Market Maker and see some nice profits of this?
Now let's add to this 0.1 positions on PFL account to make spread...
Pavikogm,

So are we now saying that tighter spreads are bad? As I stated when we launched FREE EXN plan, this is an entirely different quote feed for us. We took some of our top banking relationships and required that they compete better if they wanted to be a part of this quote feed as they would be seeing more of the order flow since not all of our partners would be in the quote feed. We also still allow retail customers to post their limit orders to display, which narrows the spreads. But I’m failing to understand the issue. If you prefer a system where you can get paid for your limit orders and pay a fee for market orders, the Pay for Limits plan is for you. If you prefer a system where our top partners are competing more heavily and we include our mark-up in that quote so that you don’t have any added fees beyond your execution, then the FREE EXN plan is for you. There is no relationship between the two plans, nor would there be. Completely different feeds, technology, and set of partners and what we expect from them if they want to get our order flow from you.
  • #9,053
  • Feb 28, 2012 5:35pm Feb 28, 2012 5:35pm
Quoting jleblang
Pavikogm,

So are we now saying that tighter spreads are bad? As I stated when we launched FREE EXN plan, this is an entirely different quote feed for us. We took some of our top banking relationships and required that they compete better if they wanted to be a part of this quote feed as they would be seeing more of the order flow since not all of our partners would be in the quote feed. We also still allow retail customers to post their limit orders to display, which narrows the spreads. But I’m failing to understand the issue. If you prefer a...
Of course tighter spreads are not bad. I think the assumption many made was that the spreads for the FREE EXN plan would have a small markup from the Pay for Limits spreads. Thus, seeing the FREE EXN spreads being actually lower than the Pay for Limits spreads was a little confusing. But your summary above does explain the spread differences (at least for me).

Is there a tentative timeframe to offer the FREE EXN plan for non-Metatrader accounts?
  • #9,054
  • Feb 28, 2012 11:33pm Feb 28, 2012 11:33pm
Quoting zznbrm
Of course tighter spreads are not bad. I think the assumption many made was that the spreads for the FREE EXN plan would have a small markup from the Pay for Limits spreads. Thus, seeing the FREE EXN spreads being actually lower than the Pay for Limits spreads was a little confusing. But your summary above does explain the spread differences (at least for me).

Is there a tentative timeframe to offer the FREE EXN plan for non-Metatrader accounts?

Zznbrm,

I see. Well, if that was the assumption made, then yes, it was a mistake. We said “New plan” not “New way to charge you the same thing.” At this time, I don’t have an ETA for the non-Metatrader FREE EXN accounts. It requires a lot of backend work.
  • #9,055
  • Feb 29, 2012 12:14am Feb 29, 2012 12:14am
Justin,

First and foremost, your and MBT's transparency and sharing of the inner workings is very refreshing and appreciated. If I may expand on the Free-EXN vs Pay-For-Limits discussion. As a fairly new trader, I share the opinion of Zzn. I was under the assumption that the PFL feed had the best spread MBT could secure for me, the customer. As a result, I expected the Free-EXN to be PFL+mark-up. While I understood the feeds were different, it was expected the 'best' available PFL spread would transfer. But it appears you were able to 'lean' on your liquidity providers to get better spread--AND THANK YOU. But that begs the question, why does the PFL feed not get the same result? The flip side of course, is that only those traders that regularly use limit orders (or those that despise MT4) should use PFL and reap the benefits--as I do.

Net-net, you explained sufficiently the difference. After such I have two questions--1) could the PFL feed get similarly tight feeds or does the Free-EXN model have inherent differences such that LP's would favor it? 2) and more importantly, do you find it a strength or a weakness splitting your customers into two different feeds? The strength of your EXN model (whether PFL or Free) is the ability to utilize liquidity both from within MBT's customers and LP's. I must say I have seen fewer Limit orders filled (without the market fully coming to my order) since Free was implemented, my assumption being that those that usually took my limits with their market orders have now moved to Free as PFL offered them no benefits.

For now, I will stick with PFL and hope to see marginally improved spreads, but as a limit order trader, PFL is vastly better. Thanks again for your honesty, transparency, and willingness to answer any and all questions on the forum.

BroncoCap

PS: Historical tick downloads for EURUSD has been down for a few days. I have a ticket submitted but with no traction. Not a huge deal--I just get the data from a competitor, but with far fewer data points

Quoting jleblang
Zznbrm,

I see. Well, if that was the assumption made, then yes, it was a mistake. We said “New plan” not “New way to charge you the same thing.” At this time, I don’t have an ETA for the non-Metatrader FREE EXN accounts. It requires a lot of backend work.
  • #9,056
  • Feb 29, 2012 3:18am Feb 29, 2012 3:18am
Quoting BroncoCap
Justin,

First and foremost, your and MBT's transparency and sharing of the inner workings is very refreshing and appreciated. If I may expand on the Free-EXN vs Pay-For-Limits discussion. As a fairly new trader, I share the opinion of Zzn. I was under the assumption that the PFL feed had the best spread MBT could secure for me, the customer. As a result, I expected the Free-EXN to be PFL+mark-up. While I understood the feeds were different, it was expected the 'best' available PFL spread would transfer. But it appears you were able to...
I think the spread difference between the two accounts is very small. Take yesterday's EURUSD London session for example in the image below.

As you can see, the PFL has a slightly higher mean, but more frequently has spreads in the range 0.0-0.4. Is this a result of more client limit orders on the PFL plan...? I'd thought client limit orders would be available for all other MBT clients, not just clients on the same plan...?
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  • #9,057
  • Feb 29, 2012 3:55am Feb 29, 2012 3:55am
Quoting jleblang
So are we now saying that tighter spreads are bad? As I stated when we launched FREE EXN plan, this is an entirely different quote feed for us.
Of course it's better to have lower spreads. Thank you for explaining the reasons behind it.
  • #9,058
  • Feb 29, 2012 8:20am Feb 29, 2012 8:20am
Awesome quantitative data rooicol. As I understand it, PFL and Free are two completely different systems and, while customers may have accts on both systems, orders are restricted to either PFL or Free. Otherwise, one could arbitrage the two and gain PFL rebates. Justin posted the explanation somewhere here.

More importantly, imho, is the fact that the MBT customer base has been split in half (at least tick count is 50:50), and the effects that has on limit order filling. Today I had great fills w/o the market going in my direction, but it is hit or miss. In the end, it's up to me to be on the right side of the market, just nice getting quick fills when I am best bid/offer. Overall, I am very pleased w/ MBT (and those on FF who share their insight, opinion, data on MBT).

I agree that the difference is very small and have no plans for leaving PFL, just wanted to provide some commentary on my perception of the issue.

Cheers!
BroncoCap

Quoting rooicol
I think the spread difference between the two accounts is very small. Take yesterday's EURUSD London session for example in the image below.

As you can see, the PFL has a slightly higher mean, but more frequently has spreads in the range 0.0-0.4. Is this a result of more client limit orders on the PFL plan...? I'd thought client limit orders would be available for all other MBT clients, not just clients on the same plan...?
  • #9,059
  • Feb 29, 2012 12:34pm Feb 29, 2012 12:34pm
Quoting BroncoCap
Justin,

First and foremost, your and MBT's transparency and sharing of the inner workings is very refreshing and appreciated. If I may expand on the Free-EXN vs Pay-For-Limits discussion. As a fairly new trader, I share the opinion of Zzn. I was under the assumption that the PFL feed had the best spread MBT could secure for me, the customer. As a result, I expected the Free-EXN to be PFL+mark-up. While I understood the feeds were different, it was expected the 'best' available PFL spread would transfer. But it appears you were able to...
Broncocap,

Again, I think I’ve explained it as best I can. These are two different models. The FREE EXN model has less banks, but they are largely the bigger banks that we have worked with over the years (also the ones that have had the least problems with us in terms of execution speed and connectivity). I can’t get too specific here, but let me give you a general example.

You have Plan A with 20 entities feeding their quotes into it. We only route your order to the bank with the best bid/ask at the time. That means that only when one of those entities is the best bid or ask do they get order flow from us, and of course, prices update in the milliseconds. Obviously, the more competitive any one of those entities is in trying to keep their best bid and/or ask near the market, the more of our customer orders they will have routed to them, but let’s face it. If you have 20 competing, they are only each going to get so much.

Now, let’s say you create a Plan B and only allow 5 of the entities in. You only invite the 12 that have caused you the least problems and have been the fastest to execute over time. And you let them know that you are only taking 5 of them. By definition, the ones that get in will get to see more order flow, you would imagine right? So they are already interested. Then you add the caveat that in order to become one of the 5, they have to be even more competitive with their pricing or they will get dropped. Then you throw in the notion that we’re going to create a new technology to build our mark-up into the spread on the fly based on the best bid/ask from those brokers.

That’s how you get tighter pricing on that plan. It is completely unrelated. Now, what does that have to do with going back to Plan A and getting tighter pricing? The only incentive there for the participants to see more of our order flow is if they want to get more competitive, but again, they are still fighting against a lot of others and are only going to see so much. We can’t make them do anything on that feed other than encourage them to tighten up if they want more orders routed their way. So these are two totally different business models.

We introduced FREE EXN as a whole new MODEL using our technology, not just a way to get the same thing with the commission in the price instead of charged after. Now remember, since we aren’t charging a fee on one side for market orders, we can’t pay on the other side for Limit orders. But we can still allow you to post your Limits that way and display them directly in the quote.

I would encourage you to read the following two paragraphs very carefully and do so without any assumptions. In other words, don’t come in hearing what you think you want to hear.

The MBT Pay for Limits plan offers traders a quote feed from multiple liquidity providers with no mark-up or intervention by MBT, thus allowing traders to see the raw quote data and get charged or paid by MB Trading for the execution. Orders are routed to the best price destination available at the time if they are marketable. Limit orders that are not marketable are displayed in the quote for all to see and hit. A fee of $2.95 per $100,000 is charged for executing a market order, and MBT pays our customer an immediate $1.95 per $100,000 for Limit orders that are posted and hit by the market for adding to our liquidity.

The MBT FREE EXN plan offers traders a competitive “all-in” spread model where the price of execution is the net price to the customer. The quote feed is from multiple liquidity providers that have proven to be the most effective partners to MB Trading in terms of liquidity and execution speed. The quote feed includes a small mark-up/mark-down for MB Trading. Customers can still post Limit orders that will reflect in the price for all others to see and hit at no charge, although they are not paid for adding liquidity to this plan because no commissions are charged for market orders.

The first plan is for people that want raw quote data and to pay for executions, but also especially beneficial for those that run a lot of Limit orders and want to get paid for adding liquidity for other traders. The second plan is for people that just want a net number when they trade and are used to no-commission brokers. Note that nothing in the descriptions has anything to do with the business model behind the scenes that creates the separate quote feeds. These are TWO DIFFERENT CONCEPTS completely, and the spreads should not relate accordingly.
  • #9,060
  • Feb 29, 2012 12:42pm Feb 29, 2012 12:42pm
Again Justin, your time and energy expended sharing such information is very much appreciated.

The insight not only into MBT's motivations, but the motivation of your LP's is eye-opening. The difference between inclusivity and exclusivity is most interesting. Where most brokers (and traders) think more LP's is better, MBT is proving that cherry picking the best of the best may actually be preferred. Interesting...Kudos to you and MBT for breaking out of the stereotypical mold of what a broker should do.

No need to spend more time on my questions, you have sufficiently and expertly answered them.

Cheers!
BroncoCap
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