How much time did it take you to make progress?

I'm new to the world of forex and trading in general. I heard of forex before but never really knew how to trade until i saw the 4ex made easy infomercial at 2am earlier in the week (and happened to go to their workshop the next day out of curiousity). Based on the posts from some forums, its a bit more complicated than the workshop had presented it.

In any case, I'm curious to find out how much time it took people from starting from scratch to being able to feel comfortable to move past trading on miniaccounts? Did you work with a mentor or self-taught? Do you think that their are any particular traits or skills that would be pertinent to forex trading? For instance, my background is in engineering and I have an MBA so I can see myself as a technical trader.

I'm mostly self-taught and basically got my knowledge with books, the internet, here at the factory and of course, (how about a little marketing? ) the James16 Group!

But I do think that no matter how much help you get from others, it still depends on you on how things will work out...

A lot of pieces you have to work on..

I've just started forex last year around June/July (?) with 0% knowledge of what they mean by the market or what it means to be a trader. Don't believe me? Look at the threads I started here at the factory..

There are just so many opinions (and also pieces) as what makes a good/successful trader. But if I was to choose one best piece from the pieces, I'll go with DISCIPLINE.

Oh my gosh, I just realized, I haven't answered your question... silly me..
Well, I'm looking at a 3-year horizon.. But hopefully will get my free education before that 3 year runs out... :-)

Regards,
East

A few things. Read, read, read.
You must have patients in both trading and in learning.
I Demo traded only, for 1 full year, then I traded a mini account and blew that out. Then I demo traded for another year. Now I trade full time and live and demo for testing and have done fairly well. the point is, it takes generally 1 to 3 years to become good at it... I must be a slow learner, because it took the full three...

Good Luck.. Right here is a very good place to start...

Scott

Avis,

Making progress in this game in the end really depends on the trader. It took me 1 full year before I thought I was ready to trade live with a mini account. But, I know some traders that started trading live just after 6 mos. and even 3 mos. I would advise you to take your time and get lots of chart time. You will find out very quickly that you can still make a great deal of money with mini accounts ... demo as much as you can be in the end nothing beats trading live ... even if you just trade pennies to start.

There is tons of info out there ... sometimes to much info, but that's the only way you will learn and determine your style of trading. Just keep and open mind and ask questions.

In my opinion, the only traits you really need is good discipline, good money management, and decent trade system or model ... then you should be fine. I too have a electrical engineering degree and a MBA but those things don't help to trade ...

The 1 thing I will stress is take your time before jumping in with real money. Happy trading to u ....

thanks for the fast and friendly feedback. Wow, I was hoping to start trading confidently within 6-12 months. 3 years is a long time for me! How much did you guys devote each day to learning?? I have enough free time during the day to probably put in 3-5 hours daily. I'm more a self taught person myself but I wonder if its possible to learn off of a pro trader, or maybe I would just be more confused..

I have been demo trading for almost 2 yrs now. I have a cd library for trading and have watched those cds so many times, I have most of it memorized. But, that is still not enough. demoing for almost 2 yrs now, I have finally been making a profit for only about a month. The last thing a person wants to do is get into live trading too early because if they do, it will make a person wonder if it is actually for them and give up and not try any more.

When I wake up in the morning, I turn on the computer. I have my charts up all day and periodically check them. When I go to work at 11p.m., I get my charts up at work and watch them til 7 a.m. I average about 18 hrs of working on this everyday. And while watching charts and on the weekend, I will go on forums (FOREX FACTORY, always first).

Just remember, you have your whole life to learn this stuff and the best thing to do ( responsible) is take as much time as you need before you go live.

forex is life, the rest is just details!

My devoted time is variable and mostly I do my studies on the weekend. (Plus the first 2 hours at work devoted to ForexFactory when I can afford to spare some time.. )

Again, a lot of opinions may come here...
But if I were to choose a path, I think my learning curve could be quicker if I had a mentor at the beginning.. But due to budget concerns, I had to go with the self-taught.. No regrets though..

Anyway, like I said, the result still depends on the person so whether you're self taught or not..

I just think that there's no clear cut way on how to go about it.. As I've learned, you have to try on things for size...

Again, just my opinions.. Hope I don't confuse you..
Take those that fit, and disregard those that don't.

Regards,
East

I tend to agree with the others take your time and read and read some more. I have traded futures on and off for ten years lost my money and made it back several times over in that time.Demo traded fx for the first time last year for about six months then went live this year ...not a mini account...

One thing it is not is easy money which I am sure a lot of people come into it thinking after hearing all the hype..I have no doubt over time I shall be sucessful at this (currently using vegas system and see no reason to change.) but even if I break even I actually just enjoy trading and do not seem to tire of it.

Ps Just keep reading this forum as there is a wealth of knowlegde here


shano

LOL. Great thread and good posts. Several mentioned taking your time (and to me a year into this, three years dosn't seem like a long time at all : - )
Taking your time, the time you personally need to feel comfortable with your "plan" is of course variable for each of us.

Myself? I thought i was ready to trade at 6 months with the "plan" i was taught on last May/June...and quickly had a 50% drawdown in the micro (.10pip) account so i went back to only trading demo. I've set a goal to begin live again this June, but even that is not set in stone. I'm really in no rush as any funds i make in FX will not be used/needed, and my goal is to have sufficient experience/equity in an account within 7 years to back off from my out-of-home job.

I spend from about 5am to noon Pacific Time in front of the charts watching candles form on shorter time frames such as the 30 min and 4 hour charts so i can get a feel of the currencies i watch and trade (primarily AUDUSD, EURUSD, GBPUSD, EURJPY for now). After noon i usualy study some more until about 3pm P.T. On my Wed/Thur off i might spend nearly all day/eve "charting" if there is nothing going on with the family, and since my wife and i are both learning FX it is often time spent together.

And yes we have a life. Yesterday we had a good laugh-fest watching IceAge2. Fun stuff. Tonight? We are both in a trade on our respective stations next to each other and discussing how slooooooow the market is!

Cheers,
Thom

Many people think of trading as easy money, but make no mistake. It is a profession.

If you expect to make the money, a lawyer or a doctor makes. Just remember how many years, they went to school.How much their education cost.

All of a sudden, three years is a pretty quick learning curve.
A demo account and a micro account is pretty cheap.

There are professionals out there waiting to take your money. Don't let them become one of them.

Having said that there are some people that were just born to do a certain thing. They are gifted, talented artists. Yes, trading is an art.

I know a certain individual who is now a very good lawyer. She was born to do this. I have no doubt at the age of 17. She would've been able to debate a top defense attorney

I'm sure this has been told to you many times elsewhere, but trading is less to do with economics and more to do with group psychology (at least in my opinion). The collective opinion of a group of people is what moves the market in the end, and a lot of the movement is opinion based rather than anything to do with economic conditions.

Major news release reactions are a classic example of this idea, you will see it many times where "supposed" good news comes out and the market stomps all over the corresponding pair, or vise versa, before it reverses sharply back in the expected direction (called whipsaws).

Why does it happen? .. usually through excitement, greed and panic (i.e. emotion), the news is released somewhere around what was expected, at which point an initial reaction occurs, lets say short.

Aggresive traders get excited and jumps on short, selling at lower and lower (worse and worse) prices, intensifying the drop ... some inexperienced traders then jump on "chasing the move" moving things quickly.

The smart money then comes in at what they consider the better price to go long, prices etch back higher, short term traders book their profits (i.e. buy), prices continues to etch higher, the inexperienced traders start to worry and think some profit is better than none ... price moves higher still, now the real money comes in long and moves the market as it should have moved in the first place and so starts a cycle of panic buying to cover short trades that are now at break even or worse after being in a lot of profit just 10 minutes ago, and the inexperienced traders start chasing the smart money and so we start again.

For me, you are ready to trade when you have absolute control over your emotions when trading, and you won't know this until you have been exposed to different scenarios a few times over a considerable period of time. Triumph over emotion, and couple this with a good Money Management plan and you can make just about any average system work for you.

One last warning, be careful about traders claims, it is easy to get excited about claims of huge profits, perfect trading records, systems with 80% success rate etc. etc. but you rarely hear of when they lose (apart from some honest folks here )

Everyone loses .. everyone .. and almost everyone loses an account or two or three (I've lost two in my time), so start small, make sure if you do lose an account starting out, it is small one until you have mastered self control and work from there. Demo trading is a great idea, and very useful in working out your trading style, but don't think it is an accurate depiction of live trading, demo trading has no emotion involved.

I trade the exact same system I lost two accounts on way back when, yet I now make consistent profits month on month. What's changed? ... not the system ...

Lasty GOOD LUCK, I wish you every success!

P.S. I run a non-profit site for beginner traders that might have information of interest at http://www.beginnertrader.com (is this allowed mods?), have a squiz for some info.

Hi Avis,

I became consistently profitable in about 18 months. During that time, I spent around 8 hours a day either reading a trading book, reading this forum, or staring at charts 'til I fell asleep at the keyboard.

3 years is about average for the 5% who make it. Expect it to take between 3 and 5 years.

Here's three books that are absolute Must-Haves. Read them frequently.

Reminicences of a Stock Operator - Edwin LeFevre
Market Wizards - Jack Schwager
New Market Wizards - Jack Schwager

Here's three more containing specific skills you need for trading.

Trading in the Zone - Mark Douglas
Trade Your Way to Financial Freedom - Van Tharp
High Probability Trading - Marcel Link

On the forum, in addition to the Beginners Forum, read the VWB threads, the Lost in the Tunnel thread and most especially the James16 Chart Thread.

If you haven't opened an account yet, forget about mini accounts as a beginner. Open a micro account or smaller. A micro account lets you trade $1000 lots. FXSolutions is a good broker who offers micro accounts. Oanda is another great one that lets you trade very small size; much smaller than a micro.

Dial

How slow the market is???!!! lol, you must be kidding, I have never seen a fast week like this one


Thanks,

Nader

I believe that the time it takes you to master discipline, patience, and courage is pretty close to the amount of time it will take you to become successful in the markets. Psychology is the key to trading successfully.

Let me post the following to help you. This is not mine. I found it on a web site. I don't know who originally wrote it. Read through it. It is pretty accurate on the steps you will take in this trading journey.

Step One: Unconscious Incompetence.

This is the first step you take when starting to look into trading. you know that its a good way of making money because you've heard so many things about it and heard of so many millionaires. Unfortunately, just like when you first desire to drive a car you think it will be easy - after all, how hard can it be? Price either moves up or down - what's the big secret to that then - lets get cracking!

Unfortunately, just as when you first take your place in front of a steering wheel you find very quickly that you haven't got the first clue about what you're trying to do. You take lots of trades and lots of risks. When you enter a trade it turns against you so you reverse and it turns again .. and again, and again.

You try to turn around your losses by doubling up every time you trade. Sometimes you'll get away with it but more often than not you will come away scathed and bruised You are totally oblivious to your incompetence at trading.

This step can last for a week or two of trading but the market is usually swift and you move.

Step Two - Conscious Incompetence

Step two is where you realise that there is more work involved in trading and that you might actually have to work a few things out. You consciously realise that you are an incompetent trader - you don't have the skills or the insight to turn a regular profit.

You now set about buying systems and e-books galore, read websites based everywhere from USA to the Ukraine. and begin your search for the holy grail. During this time you will be a system nomad - you will flick from method to method day by day and week by week never sticking with one long enough to actually see if it does work. Every time you come upon a new indicator you'll be ecstatic that this is the one that will make all the difference.

You will test out automated systems on Metatrader, you'll play with moving averages, Fibonacci lines, support & resistance, Pivots, Fractals, Divergence, DMI, ADX, and a hundred other things all in the vein hope that your 'magic system' starts today. You'll be a top and bottom picker, trying to find the exact point of reversal with your indicators and you'll find yourself chasing losing trades and even adding to them because you are so sure you are right.

You'll go into the live chat room and see other traders making pips and you want to know why it's not you - you'll ask a million questions, some of which are so dumb that looking back you feel a bit silly. You'll then reach the point where you think all the ones who are calling pips after pips are liars - they cant be making that amount because you've studied and you don't make that, you know as much as they do and they must be lying. But they're in there day after day and their account just grows whilst yours falls.

You will be like a teenager - the traders that make money will freely give you advice but you're stubborn and think that you know best - you take no notice and overtrade your account even though everyone says you are mad to - but you know better. You'll consider following the calls that others make but even then it wont work so you try paying for signals from someone else - they don't work for you either.

This step can last ages and ages - in fact in reality talking with other traders as well as personal experience confirms that it can easily last well over a year. This is also the step when you are most likely to give up through sheer frustration.

Eventually you do begin to come out of this phase. You've probably committed more time and money than you ever thought you would, lost 2 or 3 loaded accounts and all but given up maybe 3 or 4 times.

Step 3 - The Eureka Moment

Towards the end of stage two you begin to realise that it's not the system that is making the difference. You realise that its actually possible to make money with a simple moving average and nothing else IF you can get your head and money management right You start to read books on the psychology of trading and identify with the characters portrayed in those books and finally comes the eureka moment.

The eureka moment causes a new connection to be made in your brain. You suddenly realise that neither you, nor anyone else can accurately predict what the market will do in the next ten seconds, never mind the next 20 mins. You start to work just one system that you mould to your own way of trading, you're starting to get happy and you define your risk threshold.

You start to take every trade that your 'edge' shows has a good probability of winning with. When the trade turns bad you don't get angry or even because you know in your head that as you couldn't possibly predict it it isn't your fault - as soon as you realise that the trade is bad you close it . The next trade will have higher odds of success because you know your system works.

You have realised in an instant that the trading game is about one thing - consistency of your 'edge' and your discipline to take all the trades no matter what as you know the probabilities stack in your favour.

You learn about proper money management and leverage - risk of account etc etc - and this time it actually soaks in and you think back to those who advised the same thing a year ago with a smile. You weren't ready then, but you are now. The eureka moment came the moment that you truly accepted that you cannot predict the market.

Step 4 - Conscious Competence

You are making trades whenever your system tells you to. You take losses just as easily as you take wins You now let your winners run to their conclusion fully accepting the risk and knowing that your system makes more money than it looses and when you're on a loser you close it swiftly with little pain to your account

You are now at a point where you break even most of the time - day in day out, you will have weeks where you make 100 pips and weeks where you lose 100 pips - generally you are breaking even and not losing money. You are now conscious of the fact that you are making calls that are generally good and you are getting respect from other traders as you chat the day away. You still have to work at it and think about your trades but as this continues you begin to make more money than you lose consistently.

You'll start the day on a 20 pip win, take a 35 pip loss and have no feelings that you've given those pips back because you know that it will come back again. You will now begin to make consistent pips week in and week out 25 pips one week, 50 the next and so on.

This lasts about 6 months

Step Five - Unconscious Competence

Now we’re cooking - just like driving a car, every day you get in your seat and trade - you do everything now on an unconscious level. You are running on autopilot. You start to pick the really big trades and getting 100 pips in a day is becoming quite normal to you. This is trading utopia - you have mastered your emotions and you are now a trader with a rapidly growing account.

You're a star in the trading chat room and people listen to what you say. You recognise yourself in their questions from about two years ago. You pass on your advice but you know most of it is futile because they're teenagers - some of them will get to where you are - some will do it fast and others will be slower - literally dozens and dozens will never get past stage two, but a few will.

Trading is no longer exciting - in fact it's probably boring you to bits - like everything in life when you get good at it or do it for your job - it gets boring - you're doing your job and that's that.

You can now say with your head held high "I'm a currency trader"

FACT : 90%+ of traders lose money trading FOREX.

My advice would be to read lots of books, articles, papers and so on about the market and how they work and how traders trade and how they pick their entries, exits and stop losses and so on....After a while, you will find a certain subject which will attract you, this is the subject which best matches your personality (Supposing that you have been subjective while you were reading), and you will read in this specific subject more and more, and then specialize in it, and start applying it to a demo account, and then to a small live account...Then you will sharpen your knowledge more and more and try to master the market using your gained knowledge and the edge you developed for yourself, this is what I call vertical expansion, in which you are adding up to your knowledge and developing new strategies based on your gained knowledge....Then you will pass through the horizontal expansion in which you will try to use your edge and your knowledge for different markets...

Happy trading journey...


Thanks,

Nader

Welcome back Dial,

18 months!? Okay, now that gives me about 9 months.. So to beat you, I need to be consistently profitable within 8 months... hmmmm... Yeah, I can do it... hehe..

Okay, you know I'm just playing around...
I just easily get competent which I think is pretty natural for guys..

But like accrete, I'm taking it a little bit smoothly...
(Yeah, another nice way of saying I concede )

Regards,
East

How long winning do you thing is enough to decide that you are consistently winning money? Or you decide that by the percentage your account has grown, if that what is this percentage?

Things finally began to click in about 1 year after I began, but I dedicated myself to it full time (8 hours/day minimum). I "wasted" the first months switching from system to system and experimenting with ever-so-complex indicators, until I decided to leave of that and keep it simple stupid. Then I wasted another few good months trying to intraday trade. It just wasnt my thing. Then, I moved to swing trading based mainly on confluence of support/resistance levels on the 4H charts and, finally, things started to make sense and fall in place.

One MAJOR advice for you: treat your demo account VERY seriously, like if it was real money. If you enter trades left and right just because "it's only demo money", you will never learn. Patience, discipline and serious demo'ing are the key to any trader-to-become.

That is excellent advise. It's all real to me... Even when I am testing a method or system...

Scott

Man, I'm probably gonna get flamed for this, but honestly I think the amount of time it takes ANY person to learn will vary greatly by the person.

I didn't know anything about forex until about 3 years ago either. However, I came from investing in stocks. So I at least had a grasp for technical analysis.

Honestly, I don't care how much it's touted, but demo trading only solidifies your system rules...it RARELY will solidify your trading, so you can't necessarily translate demo success to trading success because it is next to impossible to separate yourself emotionally in the same way EVER.

LISTEN VERY CAREFULLY...I'm not saying having a demo account is bad...on the contrary, it is important to understand the system you will be using. You need to know the quickest way to enter orders. You need to find the easiest way to close open orders. You need to avoid fumbling around looking for information you need from your platform. Personally, that's why I open demo trading accounts...to get to know the system...not necessarily to learn how to be profitable.

Here is what I did to get my feet wet in the forex...

- Read lots of technical and fundamental analysis. This could take you anywhere from 4 weeks to 4 years depending on how much you want to absorb and how fast you absorb it. It just depends...if you have been exposed to technical analysis before, it should be on the shorter side of this. Move onto the second step.

- Review and watch charts. Knowing when the best time to catch volatility or when trends form, etc is best gathered by reviewing many many many days of historical charts. I have downloaded about 5 years worth of data and opened it up in various programs to look at charts at various times during the day. Again, this could take a few weeks to a few years (concurrently with reading, of course)

- Formulate a simple system...Find out what you can spot the fastest. Can you spot support/resistance can you spot indicator confirmation quicker? are you good at spotting trends or reversals? This will help you formulate a solid system. Again, this could take a few weeks to a few years. I found mine in about 5 months.

- Backtest that system. Again, once I found my system, I backtested it for a few months over the 5 years of data to find out my probabilities. What was my max draw-down in pips. What could I do to let my winners ride (or could I do that?)? Backtesting is really key...it will save you alot of time.

- Then review brokers. Seriously...this can be a length process. Open up a demo account on any broker you feel will give you an edge. See how fast you can log in. See how fast your connection is. See how easy it is to trade. Get to know the system (not expertly, but generally). Trust me...spreads are NOT necessarily king...there are a lot of factors that determines a superior broker. Never be afraid to be disloyal to a broker, despite repoire...If a broker has a system that becomes obsolete or less inticing than another...don't be afraid to switch. The point is, after you develop a solid system, you need to be able to execute that system close to flawlessly.

- Now, here is the potential flaming part. Once you get comfortable with USING a system (not necessarily trading a demo), I recommend setting aside some "gambling" money. Money that you will absolutely be comfortable losing...If it's $200 or $20,000, I don't care...whatever your risk tolerance is. Then open a LIVE account. Remember, once this money goes into that account, it doesn't come out until you absolutely blow out that account, or you learn to trade profitably...which ever comes first. Once you deposit that money, it is officially gone off the books for you...don't even dream about feeling bad if you lose the account. The idea is to trade with REAL money in order to expose yourself to the pyschological aspects. I don't believe demo trading helps in this regard. Then trade your system to the tee. Trust me, you will find what you're really made of once you have money on the line. You will find yourself cutting yourself short. You will find yourself not wanting to lose. You will find your palms sweating and your heart beating. However, after a while, you realize what trading is about, and these feelings will subside.

- If you manage to lose your $200, then start back at square one.

Again, don't be afraid to switch brokers mid-stream. If you find that your trading suffers, switch brokers...don't blow out an account for the sake of doing it. Before you open a live account, you should have at least 3 options and more waiting in the wing to have your business. Which ones you use will depend on your preference.

As far as results go, I have a few friends where I learned this from who happily told me they blew out 2 or 3 $1000 accounts before "clicking". As for myself, In my first year of trading, I managed to have a draw-down of 70% in a $2500. I didn't want to blow the last $800, so I stopped my trading and went back to step 1. In my second year of trading, I managed to get my account back up to $1250. After feeling confident and a good financial gain on other investments, I decided to invest a little more in Forex and opened up several accounts with multiple brokers. I transferred the $1250 to another broker, and opened up 2 more $2000 accounts with different brokers. I managed to double the original investment in about 3 weeks and haven't really looked back since.

With that said, I'm not exactly a professional trader either. I do this as nice little hobby that happens to be paying dividends. I don't have the luxury of looking at charts all day and actively working on my trading system. So I rely on smaller trades with smaller gains (and consequent losses). It's not exactly a "dream", but it suits me and I know that if I were to ever get fired from my cushy job, I could fall back on my trading full-time.

I know I'll be crushed by several nay-sayers on the demo account issue...it's such a big thing for people, but it is just my opinion that you can't learn to swim outside a swimming pool. just my 2 cents.