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MB Trading Futures - Introduction

  • #8,641
  • Dec 30, 2011 11:52am Dec 30, 2011 11:52am
Quoting ForexQuant
I have witnessed many times that MT4 quote freeze but not in Desktop Pro. It happened not just in high volatility but sometimes also in low volatility. Thanks to the crazy volatility an hour ago I finally discovered the reason that caused MT4 freeze is negative spread!

The freeze actually began the moment the EURUSD dived at 10:58EST for just about 7 second. It freezed again at 11:00EST and 11:02EST but this time it is long enough for me to witness the spread in desktop pro was actually in negative (as high as negative 4pips++!) during the freezing...
I think that is a reasonable explanation. It is clear MT4 cannot handle negative spreads. I do not have any knowledge of the inner workings of the MT4 server or client. But my best guess is that when the MT4 client gets a negative spread quote from the MT4 server, it rejects it (or, the MT4 server simply does not send negative spread quotes to the client). Thus, making it appear MT4 is "frozen" while Desktop Pro is "moving". This freezing is usually a very short period of time (milliseconds), but can be longer depending on how long the "real" quotes are negative.

See attached screenshots, top chart is MT4 tick chart, bottom chart is Desktop Pro (API) tick chart. The arrows indicate three situations where the Desktop Pro spread was negative, but the MT4 spread was positive (or 0). When viewed in real time, sometimes MT4 does appear to be frozen during these negative spread situations. However, since most times the real quotes are negative for just fractions of a second, the freezing of the MT4 goes unnoticed.
Attached Image
  • #8,642
  • Dec 30, 2011 12:31pm Dec 30, 2011 12:31pm
Quoting zznbrm
I think that is a reasonable explanation. It is clear MT4 cannot handle negative spreads. I do not have any knowledge of the inner workings of the MT4 server or client. But my best guess is that when the MT4 client gets a negative spread quote from the MT4 server, it rejects it (or, the MT4 server simply does not send negative spread quotes to the client). Thus, making it appear MT4 is "frozen" while Desktop Pro is "moving". This freezing is usually a very short period of time (milliseconds), but can be longer depending on how long the "real"...
Personally I dont actually believe that MBT done this on purpose. As you mentioned it is most likely caused by MT4 itself.

I would not worry if the negative spread is just last for a fraction of seconds but this was clearly not the actual case i saw on Desktop Pro. My concern is actually the execution of stop orders at MT4 server. I dont mind to miss an entry opportunity but I dont want to see my SL is not executed because the server cant handle negative spread.

I hope MBT will take this issue serious and find a solution for it.
  • #8,643
  • Dec 30, 2011 12:54pm Dec 30, 2011 12:54pm
Quoting ForexQuant
Personally I dont actually believe that MBT done this on purpose. As you mentioned it is most likely caused by MT4 itself.

I would not worry if the negative spread is just last for a fraction of seconds but this was clearly not the actual case i saw on Desktop Pro. My concern is actually the execution of stop orders at MT4 server. I dont mind to miss an entry opportunity but I dont want to see my SL is not executed because the server cant handle negative spread.

I hope MBT will take this issue serious and find a solution for it.
My understanding...

They already have a solution for it.

I do not think SLs work like that. Remember, each MT4 account is associated with an underlying Desktop Pro account. All trading is done via the Desktop Pro account. When you open, modify, delete an order in MT4, I do not believe any actual trading takes place. These MT4 transactions are actually converted into Desktop Pro transactions and then executed. Entries and exits (SL/TP) are executed from the Desktop Pro account.

The MT4 account is really for display purposes only. It is just another visually representation of the underlying Desktop Pro account. The difficulty is MT4 has different ways of doing things than Desktop Pro. There are limitations within MT4 that do not allow for a full representation and accounting of your actual forex Desktop Pro account.

Your SL/TP will be executed based on the "real" quotes of the EXN, not what you see in MT4. Your SL/TP is not executed from the MT4 server, but the EXN servers.

Again, just my opinion. I'm sure Justin will give you a more detailed and possibly more accurate explanation.
  • #8,644
  • Dec 30, 2011 1:09pm Dec 30, 2011 1:09pm
Quoting zznbrm
My understanding...

They already have a solution for it.

I do not think SLs work like that. Remember, each MT4 account is associated with an underlying Desktop Pro account. All trading is done via the Desktop Pro account. When you open, modify, delete an order in MT4, I do not believe any actual trading takes place. These MT4 transactions are actually converted into Desktop Pro transactions and then executed. Entries and exits (SL/TP) are executed from the Desktop Pro account.

The MT4 account is really for display purposes only. It...
Thanks for your opinion and I hope that you are right about the SL/TP execution mechanism.
  • #8,645
  • Dec 30, 2011 4:07pm Dec 30, 2011 4:07pm
Quoting 8fingers
I wonder if all retail forex is rigged ? still cant connect to server (mt4).

Only very small test account (live) - this broker isnt any different than the rest.
No issues all day here and no other reports. Have you contacted their support? This sounds like something on your end, not theirs. I have zero disconnects today.
  • #8,646
  • Dec 30, 2011 4:16pm Dec 30, 2011 4:16pm
Quoting Jb3
Sigh. So basically, the swap in MT4 is completely bogus? So let me ask you where in Desktop Pro can I see the accumulated swap that is owed on each position (so I can compare)? I see the daily premium only, and I have no idea what Prem Calc even means.

Seriously, Desktop Pro is one of the most non-intuitive software out there. Can your programmers get together with a designer, and make a single screen with open/closed positions, P/L, commissions and total Swap (similar to MT4)? This way, we can actually compare what is going on without having...
Have you taken any of their superb webinars about their platform? There is a guy over there that does a great job explaining how to use Desktop Pro. I think the reality is that MT4 is a interface for newbies and happens to (strangely) handle automated trading well, while Desktop Pro is way more customizable with better order types and functionality. I have made Desktop Pro exactly what I wanted it to be and can trade so much faster with it without all of the balance issues that come with using a "second software layer" (i.e. MT4).

Second, you don't even need Desktop Pro at all to get your true statements. Just log into the website and view your statements. There is a real-time version and an end-of-day version. All of their paperwork and documentation when you opened your account points to this, so I find it baffling that you say "perhaps that should conveyed to your customers." It's all over the account documentation and even on the website in the FAQ section:

http://www.mbtrading.com/forexMT4FAQ.aspx

They have webinars that tell you how it works, it's detailed on the site in more than one place, and the account docs describe it all, so it seems to me that you are simply not reading and wanting to blame them despite their efforts to detail more than necessary how it works.

Just log into the website and get your statement there. Done. It's that simple.
  • #8,647
  • Edited 10:25pm Dec 30, 2011 9:58pm | Edited 10:25pm
^ Good for you. I like to trade with MT4 because I've already written all of my code in MT4. So what may work great for you in Desktop Pro, does not apply to me. And what works for me does not apply to you. It's great that Desktop Pro has more functionality, but it doesn't handle automation well.

My account balance doesn't even show up on the website. I asked customer service about this, and they confirmed that it is a problem with MT4 balance showing up on their website, and there are no current fix for it. So it's not SIMPLE as you had claimed. And order history on their website cannot go beyond 31 days, which is a problem because my trades lasted for 4 months, and I can't pull it up. So while it's easy to generalize for your own situation, mine is a little different.

And I tried to configure Desktop Pro, and it is not showing up with the total accumulate swap on each position. And I can't seem to pull up my closed trades either. These should be simple basic features that I don't need to read through a tutorial to figure out. I've been through plenty of interfaces from Amibroker, Ninja, Metastock, IB, and I've never had problems with just pulling simple information as Desktop Pro.

I'm not trying to blame anyone. All I ask is very simple information that should be part of the standard display. I'm not familiar with Desktop Pro, and I'm sure I can go read through their docs to find out. But this is so basic that I would have thought that would be the first screen loaded. "Open/Close Trades, P/L, Swap Accumulated"...don't you think so? Why isn't there a simple button for ORDER HISTORY? Why do I have to go to the docs to find out what my order history was, and what was the accumulated swap on each position??? So basic, yet missing.

And the reason I'm annoyed is because nowhere was it stated when i signed up for MT4 that the swap is not correct, and that I need to check with Desktop Pro constantly to figure out what is real. This was all from finding out after I got slapped with a -$1000 balance correction with no explanation.

I'm still waiting for a line by line accounting audit from a top MT4 specialist of my trades swap, and how it added up to -$1000. It's great to get a vague description of FIFO and why this and that. I want to see the math. I'm not satisfied with a simple explanation of what can happen with fractional trades/FIFO/etc. Sure, those are all great reasons, but it doesn't beat a good mathematical audit report. Show me the money.
  • #8,648
  • Dec 31, 2011 8:12am Dec 31, 2011 8:12am
  •  ilove
  • | Joined Dec 2011 | Status: because he first loved us. | 52 Posts
Quoting Jb3
And order history on their website cannot go beyond 31 days, which is a problem because my trades lasted for 4 months, and I can't pull it up...
I think for display it is 31 days, but for download, it's up to 12 months. 12 months is essential because I need it for tax purpose.
If you can't tell, just wait. The market will.
  • #8,649
  • Dec 31, 2011 8:23am Dec 31, 2011 8:23am
  •  ilove
  • | Joined Dec 2011 | Status: because he first loved us. | 52 Posts
The big problem for me for MT4 not synced automatically with Desktop Pro balance was, a few weeks ago, the MT4 showed around 1000 pounds more than Desktop real account balance. My code didn't know about that then got liquidated when the market moved against me. In MT4 it looked there was still plenty of cash to cover the margin, but in Desktop Pro there wasn’t.


Is it that difficult to implement the automatic synchronization at all???
If you can't tell, just wait. The market will.
  • #8,650
  • Jan 1, 2012 6:29am Jan 1, 2012 6:29am
  •  ilove
  • | Joined Dec 2011 | Status: because he first loved us. | 52 Posts
Hi Justin, not long ago, I asked MBT staff to transfer my fund from Pay for Limit account to Free EXN account. They are all GBP accounts. I created a support ticket then waited hours and hours (apart from 24/5 Forex Trade Desk, all other support staff are just work 9-5 US time, this is really annoying).

Then I got the following response:

"...there is a 2 business day settlement period. We cannot transfer all your funds unless you stop trading for 2 business days."

I was wondering why Oanda can do this but MB Trading can't.

With Oanda accounts, internal transfer can be done instantly by just a few mouse clicks.

"Sub-account (or secondary account): Sub-accounts may be created under your primary account without having to resubmit Account Application forms. You may have multiple sub-accounts; however, all your sub-accounts may be linked to only one primary account. Each sub-account can be in any of the supported currencies, regardless of the primary account's currency.

You may freely transfer funds between primary and sub-accounts, or deposit funds directly in a sub-account in the currency of that sub-account. You can withdraw funds from a sub-account in its currency (as long as you withdraw funds by the same method as you deposited them)."
If you can't tell, just wait. The market will.
  • #8,651
  • Jan 1, 2012 10:24am Jan 1, 2012 10:24am
Quoting Jb3
Sigh. So basically, the swap in MT4 is completely bogus? So let me ask you where in Desktop Pro can I see the accumulated swap that is owed on each position (so I can compare)? I see the daily premium only, and I have no idea what Prem Calc even means.

Seriously, Desktop Pro is one of the most non-intuitive software out there. Can your programmers get together with a designer, and make a single screen with open/closed positions, P/L, commissions and total Swap (similar to MT4)? This way, we can actually compare what is going on without having...

Jb3,

Just to be clear. You said: “So basically, the swap in MT4 is completely bogus.” That is incorrect. MT4 is not FIFO-compliant on its own. It lets you keep positions separately and close them in the order that you wish on that interface. If you use it in a FIFO manner (i.e. open trades, close them in the order that you opened, or just have one position), then the swaps calculate just fine. However, as all of our documentation clearly states, we choose to not restrict how MT4 displays positions so that people with EAs would not have to re-write them completely. In doing so, the requirement from the NFA is that we cannot allow you to receive statements from MT4 because they would not be FIFO compliant, and we have to provide you with FIFO-compliant statements, which are handled in the website and via Desktop/Pro. So it isn’t that MT4 can’t do swaps correctly. MT4 doesn’t do FIFO correctly and if you choose to close “trades” in a non-FIFO-compliant way, then that’s where the issues of accounting come in. But once again, the answer is very simple and straight-forward. Turn on your EA in MT4 and let it do your trading. Print your statements from the website. A trader that is really managing their positions can also run Desktop/Pro to watch things execute as they let MT4 do the trades so you can see the FIFO-compliant accounting details of trades and swaps along the way.
  • #8,652
  • Jan 1, 2012 10:52am Jan 1, 2012 10:52am
Quoting Jb3
Yes, please, I would love to have a top MT4 support rep to prepare a simple audit of where the balance correction came from. I like numbers. Talking is pretty meaningless to me. If the numbers make sense, then that's fine with me. I don't like getting a big correction without much explanation in detail (swap difference per trade between platform and why).

MB are marketing the MT4 as a trading interface, but now I find out the swap on MT4 is complete BS...perhaps that should conveyed to your customers before we start trading on it. And Desktop...
JB3,

I’d be happy to let you talk to the head of our MT4 team on Tuesday after the Holiday if you email me your phone number and information. He would be happy to cover how the accounting works if it isn’t clear at this point. He’s not going audit your account for you, but you can do that by printing out your statement and comparing to MT4. It all adds up fine. We’re regulated by the NFA. We can’t exactly make this stuff up or we would get busted when they do their reviews.

Happy New Year.
  • #8,653
  • Jan 1, 2012 10:52am Jan 1, 2012 10:52am
Quoting Euripides
Justin:
How can I migrate an account from MT4 to Desktop pro platform???

Euripides,

You need to create an additional account from the website (you can login with your Universal Login and then just create an account, so much of the information is already there). Then you simply go flat in your MT4 and do a money transfer, which can happen same day.
  • #8,654
  • Jan 1, 2012 10:53am Jan 1, 2012 10:53am
Quoting 8fingers
I wonder if all retail forex is rigged ? still cant connect to server (mt4).

Only very small test account (live) - this broker isnt any different than the rest.
8fingers,

I'm not aware of any issues from Friday. Please private message me with account information and details and we will help you troubleshoot. Please take issues like this straight to our support team via phone or chat. This isn’t a support forum. They can help you solve problems immediately.
  • #8,655
  • Edited 12:53pm Jan 1, 2012 12:39pm | Edited 12:53pm
Wow my mt4 freeze/bugs report is completely swept under the carpet again.
  • #8,656
  • Jan 1, 2012 4:47pm Jan 1, 2012 4:47pm
  •  ilove
  • | Joined Dec 2011 | Status: because he first loved us. | 52 Posts
Quoting ForexQuant
Wow my mt4 freeze/bugs report is completely swept under the carpet again.
I witnessed the freeze/bugs as well on Friday. I tried and then actually bought in MT4 at 1.2976ish, not the lowest. Sold a few minutes later for around 10 pips.

I don't know how mt4 handled it. It looked like the quote was frozen but execution was still functional.
If you can't tell, just wait. The market will.
  • #8,657
  • Jan 1, 2012 7:30pm Jan 1, 2012 7:30pm
Quoting ilove
I witnessed the freeze/bugs as well on Friday. I tried and then actually bought in MT4 at 1.2976ish, not the lowest. Sold a few minutes later for around 10 pips.

I don't know how mt4 handled it. It looked like the quote was frozen but execution was still functional.
Mt4 did not freeze at 1.2976 therefore it is functional.
  • #8,658
  • Jan 1, 2012 7:45pm Jan 1, 2012 7:45pm
  •  ilove
  • | Joined Dec 2011 | Status: because he first loved us. | 52 Posts
Quoting ForexQuant
Mt4 did not freeze at 1.2976 therefore it is functional.
ah, could be just back to normal after the sudden drop. Sorry, my bad
If you can't tell, just wait. The market will.
  • #8,659
  • Jan 1, 2012 8:38pm Jan 1, 2012 8:38pm
hello is mb trading planning to add more currency pair ? at least complete to each other on major currency basket eur, gbp , chf , usd , cad , jpy , aud ,nzd . I notice no gbp/nzd , nzd/cad , eur/nzd , nzd/chf etc ..
  • #8,660
  • Jan 2, 2012 12:02am Jan 2, 2012 12:02am
Quoting jleblang
JB3,

I’d be happy to let you talk to the head of our MT4 team on Tuesday after the Holiday if you email me your phone number and information. He would be happy to cover how the accounting works if it isn’t clear at this point. He’s not going audit your account for you, but you can do that by printing out your statement and comparing to MT4. It all adds up fine. We’re regulated by the NFA. We can’t exactly make this stuff up or we would get busted when they do their reviews.

Happy New Year.
Like I said, show me the numbers. PM me a phone number, and I will call in when I'm available. Please be prepared to answer questions about my account trading because I'm going to do some auditing myself and will like to not waste any time.

I went ahead and logged into the website to print out the order history. Nothing. Can't display any trades (even less than 30 days), and when I downloaded the excel file, it was empty. Is it working? Well, after trying to pull up my trade history on your website unsuccessfully for 15 minutes, I went ahead to try to download the "Reports"...and to my surprise, it works. And it looks like it is the daily premium for every trade, exactly what I'm looking for if this FIFO is the source of the problem.

I downloaded the cash report from 7/1/2011 to 11/31/2011 to encompass all of the trades from flat to flat orders. So if this is true about swap not being accurately calculated because of FIFO, should I expect to see a discrepancy of -$1,000.

I summed up the negative daily premiums on the website for the period = -$584.71. Hmmm. Then I went ahead and summed up the total swap charged to my account in MT4 for the same period of time = -$498.56. The difference is less than $100, not $1000. Unless the website daily premiums are wrong too?

So yes, I have some serious questions that needs explanation.
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