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  • #2,341
  • Nov 29, 2011 5:34pm Nov 29, 2011 5:34pm
Quoting wilsonch
As Micky said, this is serious shit. I'm thinking the previous backtest data may have to be re-examined again for the 'non-repainting' supertrend.

Micky, any idea why the PO showing two lines in my chart? Thanks for great work!

Thats what I explained to Mickey on skype that all of the backtests are completaly worthless and can be considered as NO proof or evidence that this system is proftable but I said also that I don't want to mingle myself in this debate. Because people will think that I want to spoil there X-mass party...( I have experienced this already sooo many times over the years on other forums)...

FXiGoR
  • #2,342
  • Nov 29, 2011 5:40pm Nov 29, 2011 5:40pm
Quoting FXiGoR
Changing your time frame is reseting the indicator. You do not need to change time frame. For all the same you can remove all your indicators and just place your template on it again and the result will be the same. Meaning that you will see all the re-paints.

FXiGoR
Sorry for my dumbness. Just trying to understand in plain English as I am not a technical person at all. Which one is repainting, original supertrend indi or bar indi that Micky created?

Thanks for your time,
Regards,
Blackeagle
  • #2,343
  • Nov 29, 2011 5:43pm Nov 29, 2011 5:43pm
Hi John...a few points...
Quoting johnjwong
Yes you are right, and I think I mentioned that the MA difference is due to my broker's data which broke.
Sorry...must have missed when you said that. That explains the 89EMA then...and it always should have been the easiest one to figure out.
Quoting johnjwong
However, the arrow and the colour bar are different as well.
Two separate thoughts here. First, the arrows...will address the colour of SuperTrend Bars below.

The arrows: generated from the cross of a 2 and 15 period Linear Weighted Moving Average. I am of the opinion that there will be differences across brokers here. A 2 LWMA is a pretty fast beast and will be susceptible to subtle price differences...particularly during times of consolidation, when price is also hovering around the 89EMA. I just think that is going to happen. Again, because that is only one element of the system, I do not think it will be enough to significantly damage the performance over the long run.

Quoting johnjwong
...and the colour bar are different as well.
Colour of bar ties into the potential repaint issue, and my thoughts below...

Quoting johnjwong
In conclusion however, these problems are significant as I can not match my backtest results with the excel file posted on post#1 (I am backtesting on 10M as well). Totally not even close, my backtest results are very bad having negative pips day after day.
I'm not certain when the backtest Excel document is from. What indicators were used for it? What indicators are everybody using now? Any old original ones? My suggestion for everyone is to...

-Delete everything you have downloaded in the past from your terminals.
-Delete your M10 Offline charts.
-Download Version 1.3.rar from post one, and start from scratch.

It won't hurt to go over this procedure a few times so everyone gains a thorough understanding of the mechanics of everything.

I can certainly understand wanting to match...or come close...or certainly NOT be seeing consistent losing days when matching the backtest, but...forward tests are REALLY where it is at, anyway. I haven't done any comparing with the original Excel files, but have seen more winners than losers in forward tests as I'm following along.

It is a pity that MT4 doesn't support M10 backtests in the Tester. I believe Micky is trying to get to a point where he can run some in MT5, which natively supports M10. That will be a good day! My live broker supports ANY TF, but it is Java based, and I'm not going to attempt to rewrite everything to see if I can run it there. I may give it a shot on tick data in MT4 by converting everything to M5. Can't go up to M15, because the 2 LWMA element will be incompatible.

There's certainly plenty of pips being made, so it's probably worth sticking with it for a bit. Pity about your broker having problems, although ANY system is doomed (even NO system!) if that happens very often. If their data IS patchy, that could be problematic consistently when backtesting. I've seen MONTHS of data disappear from some MT4 brokers...very recently even. MT4 is not a very elegant trading solution. Even when you go to download fresh data through the History Center, it is full of holes. Sound data is imperative for backtesting. Without it...forward tests are FAR superior...well...even MORE superior than they are to start with.

Wow...what a ramble! Sorry about that.
  • #2,344
  • Nov 29, 2011 5:45pm Nov 29, 2011 5:45pm
Quoting Blackeagle
Sorry for my dumbness. Just trying to understand in plain English as I am not a technical person at all. Which one is repainting, original supertrend indi or bar indi that Micky created?

Thanks for your time,
Regards,
Blackeagle
The original is generaly known all over the internet to be repainting. But now after some further investigation the modified one is also repainting.

And will be very diificult to modify to non-repainting without loosing its caracteristiques (that is the paradox).

Friendly regards...( I am leaving the building now... )
  • #2,345
  • Nov 29, 2011 5:50pm Nov 29, 2011 5:50pm
Quoting wilsonch
Edit: Alright, I found it! Basically the template uploaded by Peter has the blue lines and yellow lines painted as object. So when it added in my own chart calculated blue yellow lines, they become 2 lines at the same place. PROBLEM SOLVED! wee!
This is to those having the same problem as me using the template directly downloaded in page 1. Here's the solution for the repeated blue lines and yellow lines in chart: Rebuild the template yourself, double lines will be gone.
  • #2,346
  • Nov 29, 2011 5:52pm Nov 29, 2011 5:52pm
Quoting kenfen69
...
...forward tests are FAR superior...well...even MORE superior than they are to start with.
Thanks for your contribution. That's what we have been doing since Nov.17th and the results are good so far. To be honest, although I appreciate Peter's efforts re. backtests, I always rely on my tests (which is forward testing) when trading someone else's system as I am putting my money on risk. By forward testing, one can feel the strengths and weaknesses of a system much better, IMHO.

Regards,
Blackeagle
  • #2,347
  • Nov 29, 2011 5:53pm Nov 29, 2011 5:53pm
Last posting to explain to some of you how you need to understand this type of repainting (because there are several ways of repainting):

I am going to use a metaforical example so you would understand in an easier way:
It is reacting in the same way like you would see on your table a HOLOGRAM of a 100$ bill. You try to grap the money but you see that you go with your hands throught that note. You say: Hey wait a minute, change that hologram in such a way that this 100$ stays on the table. The answer will be that the moment they change or take away the hologram then also that 100$ will disapear.

I know it sounds a little bit strange but trust me it is the very same thing and Mickey the programmer agreed on it.

Take care and I am off now... (I read over the postings tomorrow if I could or can be of some help) ...cheers
  • #2,348
  • Nov 29, 2011 5:54pm Nov 29, 2011 5:54pm
Quoting FXiGoR
Friendly regards...( I am leaving the building now... )
Goodnight Elvis...er...Igor!

Thanks for sharing your experience!

A question...for Igor, or anyone else who has found this problem with SuperTrend in the past. Ever found a suitable solution? Somebody (Blackeagle?) was mentioning something about CCI? Not trying to take away from the potential of SuperTrend, but...any options anyone has ever heard of?
  • #2,349
  • Nov 29, 2011 6:02pm Nov 29, 2011 6:02pm
Quoting kenfen69
....Not trying to take away from the potential of SuperTrend, .............
....damn damn damn....I don't get out of the building ......


Nope that is the paradox.... and trust me on that one...
  • #2,350
  • Nov 29, 2011 6:18pm Nov 29, 2011 6:18pm
Quoting kenfen69
Goodnight Elvis...er...Igor!

Thanks for sharing your experience!

A question...for Igor, or anyone else who has found this problem with SuperTrend in the past. Ever found a suitable solution? Somebody (Blackeagle?) was mentioning something about CCI? Not trying to take away from the potential of SuperTrend, but...any options anyone has ever heard of?
Yes, it was me. I have a supertrend indi doing the same thing and it does not repaint. What this indi is actually a CCI indi, 50 period. When CCI 50 moves above 0 line, then indi prints green colour showing uptrend and when it moves below 0 line, it prints red colour showing downtrend.

I checked CCI 50 with 0 line on it and compared it with Supertrend indi of Peter's system. The problem is the one I have does not have multiplier input whereas Peter use 1.7 and I have no idea what multiplier does.

So when I did write it hadn't repainted, I just checked if colour of indi changes accordingly when price moves above/below it and it does. Because of that multiplier input, CCI 50 does not match with current supertrend indi Peter uses. So if the levels of supertrend indi Peter uses repaints, that will affect backtest results as those levels are important since bar colours change according to those levels (price being above/below supertrend indi level).

I have no idea how heavily it repaints but forward test since Nov. 17th proved that system is profitable, but on the other hand I am well aware of the fact that two weeks of forward testing is nothing, it might be just pure luck, so we are still forward testing.

Since some people are lazy here (they don't even want to learn how to use 10min charts which is very easy), they are trying to tweak timeframes, indis etc. I am using IBFX demo for forward testing and following all the rules. What I do differently is to stop trading when I reach my daily target. And so far I can say that I reached those targets almost every day since Nov. 17th. That's what matters. And I'll keep doing the same here until I convinced that system is either profitable or not. As a seasoned trader, I suggest everyone does the same, don't waste your time with backtests, different time frames, changing this, changing that. Either use a demo account or live one (I'm using live) and forward test.

Regards,
Blackeagle
  • #2,351
  • Nov 29, 2011 6:20pm Nov 29, 2011 6:20pm
Quoting kenfen69
..........Not trying to take away from the potential of SuperTrend, but............
Kenfen69

In other words...

Can you replace something that is to good to be true by something that is the real thing whithout being again to good to be true but still looks like to good to be true.....

you probably catch my drift....

FXiGoR
  • #2,352
  • Nov 29, 2011 6:23pm Nov 29, 2011 6:23pm
Quoting johnjwong
FXiGoR, I am afraid that the problem is not solely on repainting of the indicators...

............
I am sorry my friend... I am going to look into your post tomorrow. It is here at my end now 03.22 AM.

I hope you don't mind
  • #2,353
  • Nov 29, 2011 6:24pm Nov 29, 2011 6:24pm
Quoting FXiGoR
....damn damn damn....I don't get out of the building ......


Nope that is the paradox.... and trust me on that one...
Ruuuuuuuuuuunnnnnnnnnnnnn!

Cheers mate...was sure there wasn't a simple fix.

Get out of here...all the best!
  • #2,354
  • Nov 29, 2011 6:33pm Nov 29, 2011 6:33pm
Quoting FXiGoR
Kenfen69

In other words...

Can you replace something that is to good to be true by something that is the real thing whithout being again to good to be true but still looks like to good to be true.....

you probably catch my drift....

FXiGoR
Catch your drift, indeed, but...

I've never actually used SuperTrend before. I haven't really noticed anything spectacular about it. I'm not a huge "indy" guy though, so they all often look quite similar to me. I trade more price action, supply/demand.

We must be able to come up with some sort of a solution. I like a challenge. We'll see how Micky gets on, and I'll try and sniff something out.
  • #2,355
  • Nov 29, 2011 6:38pm Nov 29, 2011 6:38pm
Quoting Blackeagle
Yes, it was me. I have a supertrend indi doing the same thing and it does not repaint. What this indi is actually a CCI indi, 50 period. When CCI 50 moves above 0 line, then indi prints green colour showing uptrend and when it moves below 0 line, it prints red colour showing downtrend.

I checked CCI 50 with 0 line on it and compared it with Supertrend indi of Peter's system. The problem is the one I have does not have multiplier input whereas Peter use 1.7 and I have no idea what multiplier does.

So when I did write it hadn't repainted, I just...
Cheers mate...very thorough answer!

I'm still trying to figure out how much weight of the system is actually put on the SuperTrend candles. If the system isn't 80% reliant on it, there surely must be another method to get pretty similar results without changing any of the other elements? Hmmmmmmmmmm...

We'll see how Micky gets on, but if Igor has never heard of a direct solution, it could be a tough egg for Micky to crack.
  • #2,356
  • Nov 29, 2011 6:44pm Nov 29, 2011 6:44pm
Quoting kenfen69
Cheers mate...very thorough answer!

I'm still trying to figure out how much weight of the system is actually put on the SuperTrend candles. If the system isn't 80% reliant on it, there surely must be another method to get pretty similar results without changing any of the other elements? Hmmmmmmmmmm...

We'll see how Micky gets on, but if Igor has never heard of a direct solution, it could be a tough egg for Micky to crack.
25%. Because you need 4 indis to align to take a trade, 89EMA, 2EMA, MACD and supertrend candles. If the supertrend levels do not repaint heavily which I believe they don't from visual forward tests, that percentage is even less.
  • #2,357
  • Nov 29, 2011 8:09pm Nov 29, 2011 8:09pm
Hi
Can you please tell which session I have to use this system, London session?
It would be helpful if you could let us know the start and end time if any. I noticed in Fratelli Main Indicator has start and end time. Do I need to enter my local time or brokers time or session time?

Thanks for the system and help

-fxmate
  • #2,358
  • Nov 29, 2011 8:09pm Nov 29, 2011 8:09pm
Quoting Blackeagle
25%. Because you need 4 indis to align to take a trade, 89EMA, 2EMA, MACD and supertrend candles.
Yeah...I don't think anyone should get overly discouraged here...I really don't think the SuperTrend is acting like some kind of "grail" that will make or break the system.

Quoting Blackeagle
If the supertrend levels do not repaint heavily which I believe they don't from visual forward tests, that percentage is even less.
Running on the M10 chart, as the system is designed to be run...and where changing TF's is not even an option...I haven't seen any repainting at all. I'm sure there was some going on before Micky "locked" it, but...those M10 charts are where all of the successful FORWARD tests...and PIPS are coming from.

However...I had two immediate indicators/solutions in mind (after hearing from Igor) to try and "mimic" SuperTrend without repainting. If the need arises, I believe I have two solutions at the ready if needed. I won't post them for now, because I don't want to cause confusion, but if Micky is banging his head off the wall tomorrow in frustration at SuperTrend, I think I have something that will plug in very easily to the system...and the EA(s) that are being developed.
  • #2,359
  • Nov 29, 2011 8:53pm Nov 29, 2011 8:53pm
Quoting fxmate
Hi
Can you please tell which session I have to use this system, London session?
It would be helpful if you could let us know the start and end time if any. I noticed in Fratelli Main Indicator has start and end time. Do I need to enter my local time or brokers time or session time?

Thanks for the system and help

-fxmate
Based on the latest template in page 1, start time is 0710 GMT and end time 1630GMT. Adjust accordingly to your broker. If yours is GMT+1, then change to 0810 and 1730. Cheers!
  • #2,360
  • Nov 29, 2011 9:50pm Nov 29, 2011 9:50pm
Quoting kenfen69
...

Running on the M10 chart, as the system is designed to be run...and where changing TF's is not even an option...I haven't seen any repainting at all. I'm sure there was some going on before Micky "locked" it, but...those M10 charts are where all of the successful FORWARD tests...and PIPS are coming from.

...
Totally agree. And I checked Supertrend levels on M10 chart again and they all stayed the same bar after bar. I respect FxIgor's experience and opinions and the indi may be repainting in terms of computer terminology but it is not repainting in terms of my trading purpose. The repainting issue FxIgor talks about may affect backtesting but it has no effect at all on my forward testing purpose.

So, I suggest everyone, newcomers or the ones who have been following this thread for some time, do not waste your time with backtesting, repainting, changing time frames and all kinds of tweaks. Just put the indis on M10 chart and enjoy forward testing by following the rules to the point. If you are happy with the results, keep on trading, if not, move on.

Hope this clears repainting issue,
Regards,
Blackeagle
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